timber frame dwellings alert

firespotter

IS YOUR HOME TIMBER FRAMED, IS IT SEMI OR IN A TERRACE, IS IT AN APARTMENT ADJOINING AN APARTMENT, MAISONETTE OR ABOVE OR BELOW THEN READ ON.

For example, see results of a simple outbreak of fire at airside, swords. (Directions, out Swords road past stagecoach pub (old road past Airport), through roundabout, turn right into Airside Retail Park, past new Hotel, past B & Q on left "right" at roundabout past Renault on right and then look left at terract of dwellings facing you. (at next roundabout turn left and look up right before next roundabout and observe roof tiles missing. Look carefully and then go around into the estate. All around you are timber framed houses over flats. All death traps.

A simple (accidental) fire has destroyed at least 8 dwellings. All will have to be demolished to the ground. It is not clear the extent of the damage only that the fire spread unseen inside the cavities of the building block and burned away the structure from the inside out. The fire stops (if any) did not work.

Owners should not listen to load of bull given to us others by Albany, Kingspan Century (Mr. McCaughey (so called expert) tell us what went wrong with your superior insulated homes that are nothing more than firewood),, HomeBond and their inspectors, DofE and their inspectors (first time buyers stamp duty rebaters), IAB & NSAI Cert. 04/0198 (read it) Fingal County Council building inspectors, Dublin City Council who issued the Fire Safety Certificate and the Fire Safety Consultants that designed the fire measures, the Architects who certtified compliance with building regulations your solicitor etc. etc. are all negligent to some degree. The Insurance Company will not pay out because of the defective construction in the first place. The buildirs and their cohorts are liable and they caused the problems. We are just the innocent parties liable to our banks and building societies for a massive debt ! Get real fellow owners. Write to Bertie, he'll be bowled over, write to Roche, Dick by name and his department of dickheads, Mr Mc.Dowell the legal expert that controls consumer law. Like the criminals swanning in prison its the victims that need help. This is a National problem and you are not alone. Ring Prime Time and get Marian to do an article. Look up the Colindale fire in England as an example, over 200 dwellings destroyed, there are many more. There were 2 fires on this site before and Health and Safety investigated, get their reports. Get an expert building construction expert. Do not fear the Authorities and the big companies. They have deep pockets, I haven't. Let me know how you get on. OK. Firespotter.

BendiBus

Can you provide a reference to the incident in question?

I'm not calling Prime Time or Marian (or even Joe Duffy) until I know what you're on about

firespotter

Me & my girl have just lost our life savings. Our new warm home got very hot the other day and the firemen came when we were out and we have lost everything. Some idiot asshole with a blolamp set fire to one of the houses in the block. We would be dead if the fire happened at midnight instead of midday. WE ARE INNOCENT VICTIMS OF GREEDY BUILDERS AND CON MEN.

hullaballoo

Please refer to a newspaper article or other periodical to back up your claims on this, firespotter.

If you do not, this thread will be locked and binned.

Cabaal

Yes because typing in caps means your post is more important :rolleyes:

If this guy doesn't back up his claims can we please lock this thread,

cruzzo

I have no vested interest in this thread but can vouch this did actually happen. I have witnessed the damage and firespotter is raising valid questions that need to be answered for the safety of residents.

Firespotter, there is a thread under regions & North County Dublin relating to Gorse Hill and Surrounding developments. Think Dade is the contributor who has initiated the formation of a residents association for this area.

mcaul

Surely people have insurance for their homes???

There are many many cases of brick buildings going up in flames too - these then need to be demolished and rebuilt in many cases.!

Most houses in USA & Scandinavia are timberframe.

You simply can't make a sweeping statement about all timberframe homes just because of one incident.

For you to get a mortgage, the mortgage bank would have insisted on insurance cover. If you did not have contents insurance your asking for trouble.

mcaul

Nothing on the news, nothing on google, nobody in Swords seems to know about it (asked a friend who works in Airside) and the only person confirming it is a new poster???


Surely if a row of houses went up in smoke it would warrant some news?????


And if you really lost everything, would you really be posting on boards the day after????


Methinks its someone with a grudge!!!!

Cabaal

mcaul wrote:

Surely if a row of houses went up in smoke it would warrant some news?????

And if you really lost everything, would you really be posting on boards the day after????

Agreed, this would at the very least make the RTE website if it wasn';t big enough to make tv coverage,

yeahs thats interesting alright, I guess prioritys in life are not in the best of order?

I find it interesting that the only people saying this happened are firestarter and cruzzo, both have 5 posts each so it stinks of the same user....of course I could be just jumping to conclusions but it looks mights dodgy

cruzzo

Check it out in this thread. Its from the region section.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=309750&page=25

cruzzo

Pity the full time fire station in Swords only opened last Monday. May have made some difference had it been open when the accidental fire occurred.

delly

Well rest assured people that this incident did occur and I have seen the block in question myself. I won't speculate on what happend and why, but from what I have been told from a reliable source, I would feel very uneasy about living in said complex.

mcaul

I have no interest in this except no liking when people grossly exagerate claims.

Seems there was a fire. A small one that caused damage to 2 other homes. No one injured no irreparable damage done and certainly nothing near as bad as posted.

And this info comes from the "dade" poster in another thread who seems to be in charge of the new residents assoc. and who seems to have a betetr head on the shoulders.

For info. David Daly of Albany also built Airside Retail Park and he used to be involved in Manor Park Homes. The finance for albany is provided by one of the larger institutions (I don't remember which one) - maybe best to check this out and start targeting them along with other large institutional shareholders of Albany. The main gripe is about the finish & quality of the homes and not a major catastrophe that never actually happened.

Sponge Bob

these posters who 'saw' and experienced everything seem to CRH shills earning their crust for themselves .

firespotter

Thanks Cruzzo & Delly, you are aware of the incident. The other replies did not read the alert properly. This is NOT scaremongering. Read it again and check each item out.

Does your insurance pay out where serious defective work caused the damage ? Check it out. Check all the paperwork with the houses and find it false. Ink is put on paper easily by anyone, I am real.

We are in dire financial trouble, we have to rent in the meantime AND pay our mortgage. How long is the meantime for us ? We can't afford a new solicitor to take a case, anyway, it would take years to get to court.

We were let down by all the, so called, experts. These people should have seen that the houses were defective.

These are houses and flats in terraces. If one goes on fire it should NOT spread to any neighbour. That is the purpose of building regulations.

It did not make proper news because there were no injuries and it happened midday/early afternoon when all news for that day and previous night had been filed by the reporters. By next day it was old news. This fire happened 3 weeks ago Thursday when everyone (including us) were at work earning peanuts to pay the monkeys. Building Societies are ruthless, they want and demand our payments.

Before anyone posts again, check each of my facts with someone who knows what they are talking about (not an expert in the pub) and you will find everything that I stated is exactly right and go and see the destruction for yourself.

Go and observe the extent of the destruction when they start to demolish.

Tell your friends and anyone in a timber framed terrace or semi.

Other countrys build one off houses, not terraces.

If you don't know what you're talking about .... off.

cruzzo

Firespotter, Have you approached any of the free local papers to highlight the incident to their readers. Try the North County Leader & Northside People.

miju

mcaul wrote:

Nothing on the news, nothing on google, nobody in Swords seems to know about it (asked a friend who works in Airside) and the only person confirming it is a new poster???


Surely if a row of houses went up in smoke it would warrant some news?????


And if you really lost everything, would you really be posting on boards the day after????


Methinks its someone with a grudge!!!!

lads this fire did happen , have seen discussion about it one a good few different forums , particularly over on www.neighbours.ie

firespotter

We begrudge having to pay extortionate rent AND mortgage with no indication of who compensates or when or if we can even claim for someone elses gross negligence. That's all. Get real and do not doubt the content without checking it out. All of the "interested" parties, I mean those responsible (we only bought our first home in good faith) have run for cover, don't answer telephone calls or don't return them. We get the idea that they are trying to protect the timber frame house building industry that is mightier than us. Did you look up Colindale, London and see the pictures ? If we had been on night shift and asleep we would now be sleeping forever 2 metres down. Our smoke alarm did not even go off. Some of the firemen were treated for smoke inhalation, carbon monoxide, they were even lucky to survive.

Hush, Hush, don't tell anyone that timber framed homes are dangerous. Just lie low and say nothing. Just like our smoke alarm you might never hear it again. RIP.

catch--22

firespotter wrote:

We begrudge having to pay extortionate rent AND mortgage with no indication of who compensates or when or if we can even claim for someone elses gross negligence. That's all. Get real and do not doubt the content without checking it out. All of the "interested" parties, I mean those responsible (we only bought our first home in good faith) have run for cover, don't answer telephone calls or don't return them. We get the idea that they are trying to protect the timber frame house building industry that is mightier than us. Did you look up Colindale, London and see the pictures ? If we had been on night shift and asleep we would now be sleeping forever 2 metres down. Our smoke alarm did not even go off. Some of the firemen were treated for smoke inhalation, carbon monoxide, they were even lucky to survive.

Hush, Hush, don't tell anyone that timber framed homes are dangerous. Just lie low and say nothing. Just like our smoke alarm you might never hear it again. RIP.

This all sounds bloody awful! I hope you get sorted soon firespotter!

I would try Cruzzo's advice and get the local papers involved! Don't forget its election year! Go get the local TD's involved...this sounds like a serious issue and must be raised!

miju

firespotter i'm not nitpicking or anything like that but was your smoke alarm a battery operated one?

firespotter

miju wrote:

firespotter i'm not nitpicking or anything like that but was your smoke alarm a battery operated one?

No, not exactly, well it was mains powered according to the building regulations with its own re-chargable battery inside i.e. not a PP9.

We always checked it every Monday and I saw the little green light in it on b4we left on that Thursday, (I'm sure I did). I have been told by a fireman that there was no smoke to set it off. He said that dry timber (in the timber frame) is smokeless when it burns. He reminded me of my grannys open fireplace. She had either smoky wet turf or smokeless dry kindlin to cook on. He also said that dry timber produces carbon monoxide that is colourless and is smell less. That's why the alarms did not work. That's why we would be Resting IP

HE ADVISED ME NEXT TIME TO INSTALL A CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR ALARM WHERE U CAN HEARE IT IF IT GOES OFF. GOOD ADVICE.
DIY, It might just save your life.

Who cares about us, we are nobodys. WE'RE ONLY DEPRESSED.

Mellor

firespotter wrote:

If one goes on fire it should NOT spread to any neighbour. That is the purpose of building regulations.

Your right, this is one of the requirements of Part B.
But, not building is fire proof. Built to the regulations, fires can still happen. The regs require that they stand up to fire for a set amount of time, it varies depending on building type, area and surroundings.
I'm not trying to belittle your situation or the incident, but its not right to class all timber building as unsafe because of this. just because there was a fire doesn't mean they were designed properly, as I said fire can happen in all buildings and spread through all structures.
I hope that you get all the issues sorted, regarding insurance and finding out if buildings were at fault.

ciaran76

I work in Airside and seen the fire and seen the damage it has done.
I feel sorry for the people who bought there as there seems to be some serious rumours going around the area about how these houses were built etc etc.

Good luck with your case OP.

dade

mcaul wrote:

I have no interest in this except no liking when people grossly exagerate claims.

Seems there was a fire. A small one that caused damage to 2 other homes. No one injured no irreparable damage done and certainly nothing near as bad as posted.

And this info comes from the "dade" poster in another thread who seems to be in charge of the new residents assoc. and who seems to have a betetr head on the shoulder
The main gripe is about the finish & quality of the homes and not a major catastrophe that never actually happened.

Edit because i just re read your post
I'd like to clarify if i may coz you're Way off the mark

1 None of this info "comes" from me, someone else posted in the Gorse hill thread and I asked people to stop speculating about it as not all the facts where in. there was also a second thread about it and again i asked people to stop posting til a report came out.
So get your facts right, last thing i need is people thinking I'm responsible for spreading rumour about the fire.

2 i am not "in charge" of the residents association, i simply helped organise the meeting where by the committee was elected. big difference, i am also not chair person of said committee no matter what is said.

3 there are 6 units effected by the fire (not 2).

4 the fire did happen, it was during the day, no one was injured but there was no article in the local papers about it. and to the owners i'd suspect it was catostrophic

the original thread was either in Accommodation or north county Dublin but may have been removed.

galwaytt

First off, firespotter, you should lay your cards on the table about your interest in this, your technical or legal background and experience of both the building regulations, construction generally, and any other salient fact.

You troll here with sweeping statements, with god-knows-what of an agenda, and are just scaring people.

For my part - I work for, help design, assemble and build, an engineered house - a type of timber house, but not the type you are referrring to - known as SIPs - Structural Insulated Panels. I also own a terraced 3-bed timber frame house, and am currently building a detached one to move into in a couple of month's time. I have regular contact with DoE on the subject of fire, and work closely with BRE link here , on the subject.

For the record: there is no distinction drawn in the Building Regulations with regard to fire performance for different house types - all houses must meet the same criteria, so if a house is approved by NSAI, BRE, DoE etc, then it meets the same performance as a concrete one, a steel one - or, if it existed - even cardboard one.

Timber frame, for use in terraced houses is tested to the exact same standard as concrete, and must withstand the same fire. Concrete does not mean fireproof - under temperature, it 'spalls', see here. Steel buckles - witness the twin towers on 9/11. NO METHOD is fireproof.

The requirement is that buildings allow sufficient time for occupants to escape. For external, non-party walls, they are required to last 30 minutes, and for party walls to adjoining properties, 60 minutes.

I have personally witnessed timber walls burning in a furnace, in the UK, at a temperature in excess of 1000 deg C, yet the room on the other side of the fire was only 22 deg C. Contrary to popular opinion, timber is not some form of kindling looking for a spark to ignite. Indeed, to make timber burn, you need v.v. high temps. Then the surface will ignite, and in doing so, create charcoal - if you've ever seen a 1/2 burned stick/log, you know what I'm describing. This charcoal is, in fact an insulator, and helps retard the speed of burn of the timber. There is no similar action occurring in concrete or steel.

There is therefore, from Building Regualtion point of view, no performance difference. However, any old Joe can stick up blocks and everyone thinks it's 'fireproof'.........how wrong they are.

Also, the single biggest cause of combustion on sites, etc, is poor work practice by following trades. Plumbers, electricians etc etc, boring holes and services through panels which they're not allowed to. If, and I stress If, the fire you refer to ( I couldn't get your link to work...), turns out to be caused by such a factor, or some other non-timber frame specific cause, like an occupant with a gas torch, etc, then you would be better served by aiming your criticism in that direction.

duleekboy

my sympathies

but you are raising valid points here

there are a lot of builders out there who simply do not know how to construct timber frame buildings and will cut every corner possible and have only jumped on this building method to save costs

there are a lot more disasters waiting to unfold in this area, building regulations and policing/enforcing of them is a joke,

on another topic related to timber houses people think they are buying well insulated houses but because of poor building practises they will find out they have gale breezes blowing throughout their houses, these builders should be obliged to carry out thermal imaging on all properties together with blow door test to back up their well insulated house claims

to the last poster i applaud your diligence in regard to building your own house in this area if only all builders showed such diligence

i do not think this is scare mongering at all, there are a lot of vested interests out there who do not want such issues raised

to anybody considering going the timber frame route get a german company in to do it, their regulations are a lot more comprehensive in this area and they are also bound by german law which means they have to guarantee their buildings to to be free from defect for 30 years this covers everything and in comparsion the 10 year structural bond guarantee is a joke

a lot of the bungalow bliss house built in the 70s early 80s are now only fit for demolition because of sloppy building practises and woeful insulation

send an email to duncan i.e of about the house fame

he will highlight this

ednwireland

firespotter wrote:

Other countrys build one off houses, not terraces.

sorry don't want to be picky here especially with your obvious current troubles but have you been to english towns (many many terraces) or european cities (many many apartments) other countries do not build one off housing simply not the case most other european countries have a much higher population density due to terraced housing and apartments.
although i agree about the enforcement i built an extension on my house and the builder said i only have to put plasterboard over the op of the boiler house but he thought a concrete slab would be more fireproof.
my sister has built an extension in the uk and the planning people were there every week to check that regs were been adhered to i never saw anyone here which worries me.