Muslim immigration in to Europe

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK

Come on, back this up now, give us links to the news stories where they were convicted in court.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

There are millions of muslims in the uk now.

No, actually there are between 1.5 and 1.8 million in the UK.

vesp wrote:

Are you saying there were millions of muslims in each of these countries say a short half century ago ?

No? But then that wasn't what you said. You claimed that the Muslim religion was new to Britian and Europe. It isn't, there are been large numbers of Muslims living in Britian for the last 300 years. Because there are more Muslims in Britian than ever before is largely irrelevant to that fact.

vesp wrote:

What do you think the background of the muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK is?

"Background" in relation to what exactly? Economic status, geographical positioning, family status, abusive childhood, deprived childhood...?

vesp wrote:

How many have grandparents who were born in the UK would you say ?

I don't have access to that information, though I'm not entirely sure of the relevance. Are you suggesting that the status of a persons grandparents is a significant factor in terrorism?

vesp wrote:

If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time.

I'm not sure how you are defining "their culture" vesp. Do you mean Islam, because we have already established that Islam has been in the UK a long time.

Do you mean the native culture of their parents? That wouldn't be true either, since waves of immigration from Africa or Asia has been taking place to Britian for a while as well.

There extended family might literally have been in Britian for a "short time" compared with the thousand or so generations that were in the native land. But again I'm not seeing what point you are attempting to support by this fact. Dead ancestors don't have a whole lot to do with the current living generation.

Also I still have no clue what any of this has to do with your original assertion that Muslims come to Britian and Europe despite the fact that they hate our western culture.

vesp wrote:

Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

I'm not quite sure what relivence that is or what point you are attempting to support by that statement. Would most people have know if they had actually met a Muslim?

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Not quite sure what you are referring to, but with events such as the 7/7 attacks and the transatlantic bomb plot the majority of the terrorist were British born or immigrated to Britian as children.

Those that do come specifically to carry out terrorist acts, such as the 9-11 terrorists, tend to come on temporary visas, such as holiday or student visas, rather than as long term migrants.

If your point was that some Muslim extremists preachers tour around Britian to attempt to brain wash young British Muslims into carrying out terrorism then you have a point. They do, as was demonstrated by that Dispatches program a few weeks ago.

But there seems little support for the idea that the Muslim migrants coming here to live and work are doing so with a strong extremists anti-western feeling.

Which stands to reason, if you hate the place why would you up root your entire family and perminently move here. If the goal was to simply blow yourself and a lot of British people up you could do that a lot easier on a holiday visa.

HelterSkelter

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

Two of the nine terror suspects arrested in last week's Birmingham raids have been released without charge, their solicitor says.

In a statement after their release from Coventry's Chace Avenue police station in the early hours of today, the men said there had been no mention to them by police of a plot to kidnap or behead any soldier.

Their solicitor Gareth Peirce said: "They have left the police station without any better understanding of why they were there than when they first arrived seven days ago.

"Not a word was ever mentioned to either of them about a plot to kidnap or the grizzly suggestion of a beheading or even of a soldier at all.

"Both have been met with a consistent refusal over seven days for any explanation for their arrest.

"They are convinced that others in the police station must be as innocent as they and urge that they also be swiftly released."

Detectives were earlier today granted a further 72 hours to question the seven other suspects.

Eight of the suspects were picked up in a series of dawn raids last Wednesday while the ninth was stopped on a motorway in the city several hours later.

The alleged plot involved a plan to abduct and behead a Muslim British soldier, according to Sky News sources.

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said the arrests had left community relations in the area "in tatters".

He said: "The community feels very angry and victimised. The question we are asking is who will be next?".

Zombrex

HelterSkelter wrote:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

I was under the impression that you have to be told why you are being arrested (ie suspision of murder for example) ... maybe I'm just getting that from too many Law & Order episodes

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

I was under the impression that you have to be told why you are being arrested (ie suspision of murder for example) ... maybe I'm just getting that from too many Law & Order episodes

Not under the new terrorism laws. They don't have to charge you at all.

This is nothing new tbh and there are more examples of wrongful arrests then there are actual convicted terrorists. The OP thinks overwise but has of yet to prove it.

HelterSkelter

Hobbes wrote:

Not under the new terrorism laws. They don't have to charge you at all.

This is nothing new tbh and there are more examples of wrongful arrests then there are actual convicted terrorists. The OP thinks overwise but has of yet to prove it.

Yeah, still waiting on the OP to come up with proof for this little gem...

vesp wrote:

muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK

vesp

That is what the UK security services are investigating. They are also keeping over 1000 muslims - I think it was something like 1100 or 1200 - under surveilance.

vesp

Originally Posted by vesp
"If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time."

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure how you are defining "their culture" vesp. Do you mean Islam, because we have already established that Islam has been in the UK a long time.

Yes islam. Islam is in the UK to the extent it is a relatively short time, as we have already established. There were not always approx millions of muslims in the UK, France, Germany etc - far from it.

Wicknight wrote:

Do you mean the native culture of their parents? That wouldn't be true either, since waves of immigration from Africa or Asia has been taking place to Britian for a while as well.

" for a while":rolleyes:

vesp

HelterSkelter wrote:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

The alleged plot involved a plan to abduct and behead a Muslim British soldier, according to Sky News sources.

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said the arrests had left community relations in the area "in tatters".

He said: "The community feels very angry and victimised. The question we are asking is who will be next?".

What does Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, suggest ? That the security services of western governments allow muslim extremists to terrorise as they so please in these jurisdictions ?

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, would be better off asking questions of his own community. Maybe if a double digit percentage of young men in his community did not support suicide bombings etc, and maybe if more people from his community condemned terrorism, and maybe if more people from his community attempted to integrate, community relations would be better.

InFront

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, would be better off asking questions of his own community. Maybe if a double digit percentage of young men in his community did not support suicide bombings etc

Oh you have a credible link now? Post it here.

vesp

InFront wrote:

Oh you have a credible link now? Post it here.

The link I provided you with was credible. It was the result of a survey done by one of the most respected newspapers in these islands, the Sunday Times. Not only that, but the results of its survey mirrored the results of other surveys done on attitudes among UK muslims.

Rather than divert the subject / go off on a tanget as quick as a suicide bomber looking for his promised virgins, perhaps you would answer the question :

What does Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, suggest ? That the security services of western governments allow muslim extremists to terrorise as they so please in these jurisdictions ?

InFront

Not a credible survey vesp, they posted it on the internet in good faith but without evidence that the respondants would be (a) Muslim (b) Practicing (c) British. It was alos a very small pool. Even the results they came out with were hardly jaw dropping, so if you want people to believe this rubbish you're pushing I suggest you post some evidence.

As for Dr Jafer Qureshi, I would answer you, but I seem to have mislaid my crystal ball that tells me what another Muslim is thinking.
At a guess, I would suggest he means that the security forces start doing their jobs properly instead of what they're doing in Birmingham right now.

And by the way, what's become of these 30 plots from last November? Where are all the terrorists, vesp? Where are these bombs you're waiting for?

Bottle_of_Smoke

That not giving a reason for arrest is appauling. I mean it's bad enough when you're refused from a niteclub without a f ucking reason.

Does anyone know the name of that Muslim who ended up being shot by special branch on some raid for a chemical bomb that wasn't found?

InFront

Jean Charles de Menezes? He wasn't a Muslim though, he just had brown skin.

There was another guy Mohammed Kahar who was shot and arrested last year but later released because it turned out he wasn't guilty of anything. One of his friends were arrested as well.

Now these two guys that have ben released in Birmingham have had their names unfairly tarnished as well, they say they are sure the men left inside will be released ina matter of time, but the damage has been done.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Yeah Mohammed Kahar was the one alright - thanks, just wanted to read the story. Was an accidental shot it turns out.

I really don't know much about the new terror laws - when they arrest people like this do they have to give an explanation as to why they thought the people were involved ?- or even come up with ANY evidence the plot even existed ?

The "liquid" bombs on planes a few months back were one thing but this is beginning to get completely out of hand

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Yeah Mohammed Kahar was the one alright - thanks, just wanted to read the story. Was an accidental shot it turns out.

If I am recalling the right case the officer in question got off shooting him on the grounds he couldn't see him properly in the gear he was wearing. They also destroyed their home.

The "liquid" bombs on planes a few months back were one thing but this is beginning to get completely out of hand

They were also found out to be total BS. There was an article on it on MSNBC where they went through the latest *foiled* plots which turned out to be pretty much baseless. I'll see if I can dig out the link.

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

That is what the UK security services are investigating. They are also keeping over 1000 muslims - I think it was something like 1100 or 1200 - under surveilance.

You are unbelieveable, haven't you ever heard of the concept of innocent until proven guilty. If you are going to quote figures about Muslims then quote the number of people who have actually comitted a terrorist act or have been convicted of the same with clear evidence. Saying the police have 1000 Muslims "under surveilance" means nothing.

You just believe and accept the official line all the time. I suppose you would have been one of those who believed the Guilford four (and the whole Maguire family) were guilty at that time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Yes islam. Islam is in the UK to the extent it is a relatively short time, as we have already established. There were not always approx millions of muslims in the UK, France, Germany etc - far from it.

"To the extent it is" ... what does that mean?

Your original assertion was that the culture of Islam is new to Britain. That isn't true, Islam is not new to the UK.

You can certainly shown that the numbers of Muslims in the UK has risen significantly from what they were 15 years ago, but that doesn't support your original assertion that he culture of Islam is new to the British Isles. Islam has been in Britian since the middle ages, and there have have been significant waves for Muslim immigration to Britian going back 300 years.

In 1869 the Muslim population of Britian was estimated at 70,000

In 1951 the Muslim population was estimated at 23,000.

By 1961 that had raised up again to 82,000.

In 1971 the population had increased to an estimated 370,000, which increased even further after Amin expelled 60,000 Muslims from Uganda the following year with many coming to Britian, bringing the total to around 410,000 in Britian.

In 1990 the Muslim population in Britian was estimated to have risen to approx 1.2 million

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,739312,00.html
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/research/pubID.33/pub_detail.asp

If there were close to half a million Muslims in Britian in the 1970s, following close to 150 years of Muslim immigration into the country, that is not a lot of support for the idea that Muslim culture is "new" to Britain. The Muslim culture of Britian did not just arrive in the last 5 years.

Your response to this seems to be to roll your eyes. I've no idea that that is supposed to referrer too or how you think that supports your position.

And I still do not understand what this has to do with your original assertion that significant amounts of Muslims who hate western values are coming to the west to live.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

What does Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, suggest ? That the security services of western governments allow muslim extremists to terrorise as they so please in these jurisdictions ?

I would imagine he would politely suggest that the police don't terrorise innocent Muslims ... just a thought.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

If I am recalling the right case the officer in question got off shooting him on the grounds he couldn't see him properly in the gear he was wearing. They also destroyed their home.

Apparently he was wearing really thick gloves (chemical protection) & accidently pulled the trigger, sounds nonsensical but I don't think Kahar tried to convict or anything so the shot might of actually just been an accident. Still an awful thing to happen to the family.

They were also found out to be total BS. There was an article on it on MSNBC where they went through the latest *foiled* plots which turned out to be pretty much baseless. I'll see if I can dig out the link.

I remember the amount of hassle that called. Michael Leary even tried to sue the british security(fair play for making a stance)

IIRC they changed the rules on what you can bring onto a place after that, did that ease off or do we still have to follow rules changed on the basis of a hoax?

I also remember reading that day there was a big protest against the war on Iraq somewhere in Britain. What a f ucking coincidence. W4nkers.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Your original assertion was that the culture of Islam is new to Britain. That isn't true, Islam is not new to the UK.

I never claim there were never any muslims in Britain. In a tolerant and democratic country like Britain, which had sucessfully traded with so many countries around the world and had ties in so many places, of course there were going to be some muslims in Britain in the 50's for example

Wicknight wrote:

In 1951 the Muslim population was estimated at 23,000.

Thank you for that. You prove my point.

Wicknight wrote:

In 1990 the Muslim population in Britian was estimated to have risen to approx 1.2 million

And what about the hordes of people who have swarmed in these last 16 years ?


I rest my case on the numbers issue.

vesp

HelterSkelter wrote:

You are unbelieveable, haven't you ever heard of the concept of innocent until proven guilty..

Course I have, and I believe in it too. Plus I believe British Justice, like Irish justice, is a hell of a lot better than the justice meted out to some poor unfortunates in many parts of the middle east.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Saying the police have 1000 Muslims "under surveilance" means nothing..

It does, it weas an official claim of just that. More than a few atrocities have been prevented as a result of such security. Perhaps you are disappointed at that?

HelterSkelter wrote:

You just believe and accept the official line all the time.

No, not always all the time. However, I would much rather believe and would find it much more credible to believe most police or govt reports rather than AlQuahda ( or however you pronouse the t***ers ) or Bin Laden.
Still, if ye believe all the virgins are waiting for the suicide bombers after they martyr themselves ....:rolleyes:

vesp

What does Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, suggest ? That the security services of western governments allow muslim extremists to terrorise as they so please in these jurisdictions ?

Wicknight wrote:

I would imagine he would politely suggest that the police don't terrorise innocent Muslims ... just a thought.

Thats right, its none of the police's business to investigate any alledged terrorist plots in the UK.

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

Course I have, and I believe in it too. Plus I believe British Justice, like Irish justice, is a hell of a lot better than the justice meted out to some poor unfortunates in many parts of the middle east.

And British justice is based on the concept of innocent until proven guilty, so stop referring to cases of "suspected terrorism" where no charges have been proven in order to back up your weak points.

vesp wrote:

It does, it weas an official claim of just that. More than a few atrocities have been prevented as a result of such security.

I remain skeptical of these so-called atrocities and would like to see some proof instead of expecting us to just believe everything they tell us.

vesp wrote:

Perhaps you are disappointed at that?

I won't even dignify that with a response :rolleyes:

vesp wrote:

No, not always all the time. However, I would much rather believe and would find it much more credible to believe most police or govt reports rather than AlQuahda ( or however you pronouse the t***ers ) or Bin Laden.

But the UK police are not exactly impartial as their bosses i.e. the UK Government, are involved in an illegal war "on terror". They have a vested interest in making the British people believe that there are terrorist threats left, right and centre to try to get the people to support the war.

vesp wrote:

Still, if ye believe all the virgins are waiting for the suicide bombers after they martyr themselves ....:rolleyes:

Ha, that just goes to show how little understanding you have of the whole situation.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Thats right, its none of the police's business to investigate any alledged terrorist plots in the UK.

Are you saying that to investigate alledged terrorist plots in the UK it is necessary to terrorise innocent Muslims?

vesp wrote:

I never claim there were never any muslims in Britain.

I know. You claimed that the culture of Islam was new to Britian. It isn't.

vesp wrote:

In a tolerant and democratic country like Britain, which had sucessfully traded with so many countries around the world and had ties in so many places, of course there were going to be some muslims in Britain in the 50's for example

You mean the 1850s, when 70,000 Muslims sailors from India settled in England alone ...

vesp wrote:

Thank you for that. You prove my point.

I'm not sure how, since your point appears to be that the Islamic culture of Islam is new to Britian.

If there was a sizable proportion of Muslims living in Britian in the 1950s, and that number had increased significantly during the 60s and 70s, that would not appear to support your point that Islamic culture is "new" to Britian.

vesp wrote:

And what about the hordes of people who have swarmed in these last 16 years ?

What about them vesp! ... you keep saying that over and over as if that is supposed to some how demonstrate something. Yet it never relates back to your actual assertion.

Firstly you claimed that large numbers of Muslims were immigrating over here despite the fact that they hated our western values. As we have established the ones that hate our western values so much appear to be largely born or raised in the west, and therefore did not choose to come over here after they decided they hated the west.

You then appear to move on from that to claim that Islamic culture in Britian has only been hear for a short time which you appear to be relating that back to some idea that even 2nd generation Muslims have an alien culture to normal British culture.

But that isn't true either, as Islam has been in Britian for a long period of time. The population has grown some what in the last 30 years, but even if it had only arrived 30 years ago that is long enough to get established.

At the end of the day I still do not understand what point you are attempting to demonstrate with all this, apart from a rather vague and underlying idea that we should be fearful of Muslims.

vesp wrote:

I rest my case on the numbers issue.

Vesp I can't figure out what your "case" is even supposed to be. What exactly is your point?

Are you saying that it is part of Muslim culture, because it is new an alien to the west, to hate western values and as such we should be very mindful of the large number Muslims immigrating to Europe in the last 10 years?

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Islam has been in Britian for a long period of time.

There may have been the odd muslim here and there a few generations ago, relatively speaking - nobody denies that.

Wicknight wrote:

The population has grown some what in the last 30 years,

You claim yourself n 1951 the Muslim population was estimated at 23,000.

Even accepting this figure, and many would say that was an overestimate, and probably included people in embassies etc in the UK, and given the muslim population of the UK is now in the millions, your statement "The population has grown some what in the last 30 years" must be the understatement of the month, old boy ! The UK is not alone of course - in countries like Germany the muslim percentage of the population has also of course exploded. They were not of sufficient numbers to be considered part of the population / ethnic mix there 60 years ago ; or in the past thousand years or two ; now there are millions there.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Are you saying that to investigate alledged terrorist plots in the UK it is necessary to terrorise innocent Muslims?

Of course not. The "innocent Muslims" who are really terrorised are the muslim British soldiers afraid of being kidnapped and beheaded on video while on leave, the innocent muslim commuter in the aftermath of the July tube bombings afraid to travel to work etc.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

There may have been the odd muslim here and there a few generations ago, relatively speaking - nobody denies that.

I've listed the figures Vesp. I don't think anyone would consider them the "odd Muslim"

vesp wrote:

You claim yourself n 1951 the Muslim population was estimated at 23,000.

I do. I also claim that in 1975 (which was 30 years ago), before I was born, the population was close to half a million. Is half a million Muslims the "odd Muslim"?

We don't have half a million Polish people here yet and already people are screaming bloody murder that the Polish are everywhere. You think that in 10 years time from now, even if the number of Polish people doesn't increase, people will be still largely unaware of Polish culture?

vesp wrote:

Even accepting this figure, and many would say that was an overestimate, and probably included people in embassies etc in the UK, and given the muslim population of the UK is now in the millions, your statement "The population has grown some what in the last 30 years" must be the understatement of the month, old boy !

Its not "in the millions" Vesp, why do you keep saying that?

It is between 1.6 and 1.8 million. It was 1.2 million 16 years ago.

vesp wrote:

The UK is not alone of course

"Alone" in what? Having Muslims?

vesp wrote:

- in countries like Germany the muslim percentage of the population has also of course exploded.

The Germany Muslim population "exploded" in the 1970s vesp, again before I was born.

Between 1970 and 1990 (which is 20 years remember) the number of Muslims in German increased from 0.3% of the population to 3.6% of the population, mostly due to migrant workers from Turkey.

In 1990 there were approx 2.2 million Muslims. Now there are approx 3.6 million. In is not as if 3.6 million Muslims have arrived in German in the last 10 years.

Even if one classifies an increase of 1.4 million Muslims on top of a population of 2.2 as an "explosion" (and I'm not sure how one would), I still don't know what relevance this is to any point you are trying to make ....

vesp wrote:

Of course not. The "innocent Muslims" who are really terrorised are the muslim British soldiers afraid of being kidnapped and beheaded on video while on leave, the innocent muslim commuter in the aftermath of the July tube bombings afraid to travel to work etc.

So are you claiming that those Muslims released without charge after being held for days on end, some of them even shot at, were either either not terrorised or were not innocent?

PoleStar

Hobbes wrote:

Again you didn't say this before and you have yet again to post any proof to back up your statements.

You want people to take you seriously start backing your words up.

Firstly I think it was perfectly clear to anyone that read my post fully that the opinion I was expressing was that it is the duty of the immigrant rather than the host nation to make efforts to integrate rather than the other way around.

Secondly, if you are looking for evidence of my opinion, here it is: It really is my opinion, I promise, Im not lying!

And I think my opinion is perfectly valid I think, and im not sure how to provide evidence for my opinion. Although I would be open to a lie detector test if you like to prove I am telling the truth!


Perhaps I should end my quotes with somethings like..............The opinions in this post are solely the opinions of the posting author and not to be taken as representative of any population of individuals whether based on ethnicity or religion. The author reserves the right to have and publicly set out an opinion. The author does not claim to have done any large scale population surveys on this matter.

I thought this forum was for expressing opinions too! Not just thrashing about the evidence that has already been put out there in the media that have more time and money to do it than we do!

Zombrex

PoleStar wrote:

IFirstly I think it was perfectly clear to anyone that read my post fully that the opinion I was expressing was that it is the duty of the immigrant rather than the host nation to make efforts to integrate rather than the other way around.

Secondly, if you are looking for evidence of my opinion, here it is: It really is my opinion, I promise, Im not lying!

I think Hobbes is referring to the fact that so far neither Vesp nor yourself has put forward evidence to actually support the original assertion that Muslims who hate our western values are actually coming here on mass.

"there is a valid point in the message that if "The West" is a place where Muslims cannot find a sense of identity and feeling at home, and cannot integrate, why come here."

To work with that question, or Vesp's original form,

"If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life..."

..one has to first accept that the west is actually a place where Muslims do not like and cannot find a sense of identity.

Evidence backing up that underlying assertion is what is severely lacking on this thread. Is it just supposed to be obvious...?

Hobbes

PoleStar wrote:

Secondly, if you are looking for evidence of my opinion, here it is: It really is my opinion, I promise, Im not lying!

Regardless this isn't after hours forum. If your making assertions your generally supposed to back them up on this forum with facts or declare them as an opinion.

Opinion != facts. Even if you believe you are not lying.

The clear fact I get from Vesps posts for example is that either he hasn't bothered to check up what he is claiming, or has and found that he is wrong but not willing to admit it.

Either way people are more inclined to debate facts then someones personal opinions.

And I think my opinion is perfectly valid I think, and im not sure how to provide evidence for my opinion.

Well you could start by researching what claims you make. Or provide people what research you have found.

So far everything Vesp has said is totally counter to what I have read/researched yet when asked where he gets those details from he ignores it.

Some good examples.
The Channel 4 documentry. Asked what documentry and not answered. I'd be intrested to find out more on it.

Another good example: "If so many muslims in Europe do not like our western way of life..."

He has not shown anything beyond personal opinion that this is actually true. In fact a recent poll done in Ireland showed the complete opposite.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

I've listed the figures Vesp. I don't think anyone would consider them the "odd Muslim"

You claim yourself n 1951 the Muslim population was estimated at 23,000.


I do not think you read what I wrote, never mind ever read any of the surveys on muslims in UK etc.
Even accepting your figure of 23,000 , and many would say that was an overestimate, and probably included people in embassies etc in the UK, and given the muslim population of the UK is now in the millions, your statement "The population has grown some what in the last 30 years" must be the understatement of the month, old boy ! The UK is not alone of course - in countries like Germany the muslim percentage of the population has also of course exploded. They were not of sufficient numbers to be considered part of the population / ethnic mix there 60 years ago ; or in the past thousand years or two ; now there are millions there.

Wicknight wrote:

I do. I also claim that in 1975 (which was 30 years ago), before I was born, the population was close to half a million. Is half a million Muslims the "odd Muslim"?

It certainly is not. It is what, 22 times what it was only a few decades earlier. Muslin numbers in the UK are now measured in millions, if you include of course many illegial immigrants.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

I do not think you read what I wrote

I did read what you wrote vesp and I replied to it, in detail. You have just reposted the same original post again, why I'm not sure.

vesp wrote:

It certainly is not. It is what, 22 times what it was only a few decades earlier.

And...?

A "few" decades later was 1975, which was a "few" decades ago. Are you saying that 1975 wasn't that long ago and that people in Britian are still getting used to the idea of this "new" Muslim culture?

vesp wrote:

Muslin numbers in the UK are now measured in millions, if you include of course many illegial immigrants.

"Illegial immigrants"? I'm not quite sure how you could know that vesp since the UK government itself seems to have little clue about who the illegal immigrants in the country are, how many there are, and where they are from.

That also still has very little to do with the fact that 30 years ok there were half a million Muslims in Britian, and 16 years ago there were 1.2 million, so the culture is not "new" to Britian.

Seriously you keep dancing around from point to point I still have no idea what the actual purpose of all this is. What point are you trying to make?

section4

Wicknight wrote:

I did read what you wrote vesp and I replied to it, in detail. You have just reposted the same original post again, why I'm not sure.


And...?

A "few" decades later was 1975, which was a "few" decades ago. Are you saying that 1975 wasn't that long ago and that people in Britian are still getting used to the idea of this "new" Muslim culture?



"Illegial immigrants"? I'm not quite sure how you could know that vesp since the UK government itself seems to have little clue about who the illegal immigrants in the country are, how many there are, and where they are from.

That also still has very little to do with the fact that 30 years ok there were half a million Muslims in Britian, and 16 years ago there were 1.2 million, so the culture is not "new" to Britian.

Seriously you keep dancing around from point to point I still have no idea what the actual purpose of all this is. What point are you trying to make?

if vesp had any sense he would not waste his time arguing with a couple of software engineers and students who have absolutely no concept of reality and espouse policies and practises they have never experienced themselves but push as if they knew better then every one else, ignoring reality, typical of liberal pc brigade in the london boroughs in the eighties till now , some times in laymans terms called the loony left.

InFront

You think vesp has a clue about Islam or immigration?

It reads to me like repetitive waffle, I find it hard to see how you can reach that conslusion.

PoleStar

I think my "opinion" again needs clarification.

I have been quoted as saying that many Muslims are immigrating to Western Europe and then complaining about integration.

This is NOT what I said. What I said was that I cannot understand why someone would go to a country and then not make efforts to integrate and bitch about isolation etc. I did not say that the majority of Muslims feel like this. I am referring to the ones we hear on the media, and unfortunately these seem to be the only Muslims we DO hear on the media. These are often heard talking about Muslims and their feelings of isolation in the host communities. Regarding THESE individuals, I said I cannot understand why they would come here if they feel so strongly about how terrible it is here for them!

I never quoted figures, and I never said this was a situation for a majority of Muslims or anyone else for that matter.

Secondly, it has been said that opinion=fact. No this is not the case. This is my personal view on the situation and one of the values in democracy is that people can have OPINIONS. They are not facts. Opinions are personal views about things. I never claimed to have any facts to back up my opinion, nor do I need them. If someone asks me if I think Bertie is a good taoiseach, I can have an opinion and say he is good or bad. I may give reasons for my opinion but I dont need to. THIS IS WHAT AN OPINION IS.

Zombrex

section4 wrote:

if vesp had any sense he would not waste his time arguing with a couple of software engineers and students who have absolutely no concept of reality and espouse policies and practises they have never experienced themselves but push as if they knew better then every one else, ignoring reality, typical of liberal pc brigade in the london boroughs in the eighties till now , some times in laymans terms called the loony left.

Wow, quite a compelling argument, its clear your knowledge on this subject is far in excess of ours, we are after all only software engineers ... :rolleyes:

what an idiotic post

Zombrex

PoleStar wrote:

What I said was that I cannot understand why someone would go to a country and then not make efforts to integrate and bitch about isolation etc.

Some people are idiots I guess. Some people are hateful and resentful and refuse to integrate with anyone. This happens to Irish as well as the rest of the world.

The point is, which I'm sure you agree with, there is a difference between talking about an individual, or small groups or individuals, and talking about a larger community.

PoleStar

Wicknight wrote:

Some people are idiots I guess. Some people are hateful and resentful and refuse to integrate with anyone. This happens to Irish as well as the rest of the world.

The point is, which I'm sure you agree with, there is a difference between talking about an individual, or small groups or individuals, and talking about a larger community.

I completely agree, that individuals and groups are different. However I think it is unfortunate that the only Muslims we hear in the media are those that talk about lack of integration. While I havent monitored all media references to Muslims in this country and the UK I think I am probably right in saying that. I don not for one minute assume that this is representative of the Muslim community as a whole and I find it regrettable that it is this type of individual that gets most air time. However regarding these individuals that we DO hear about. Why do they come here? I guess its because that despite our Western values and ways that econimically it must be preferable.

Hobbes

Polestar my comments in general are not directed at you but at Vesp who is trying to claim some kinds of facts but has of yet to back anything up. So even if his is opinion, its a flawed opinion based on nothing but stuff he is making up in his head.

Zombrex

PoleStar wrote:

I completely agree, that individuals and groups are different. However I think it is unfortunate that the only Muslims we hear in the media are those that talk about lack of integration. While I havent monitored all media references to Muslims in this country and the UK I think I am probably right in saying that. I don not for one minute assume that this is representative of the Muslim community as a whole and I find it regrettable that it is this type of individual that gets most air time. However regarding these individuals that we DO hear about. Why do they come here? I guess its because that despite our Western values and ways that econimically it must be preferable.

You are doing it again

Firstly if, as you admit, you aren't monitoring all media references to Muslims, then what makes you say that the only time we hear about Muslim integration is when Muslims are complaining that it isn't happening?

Secondly you seem to make a rather big jump from the idea of a Muslim community leader complaining that integration is being handled properly to stating that this person doesn't like our western values and society. How exactly are you making that jump?

You seem to be saying that Muslims who complain about lack of integration also have issues with our western values and society.

I'm not sure how that link is being made. To me it would seem more logical that those who complain about lack of integration are the ones who would like Muslims to integrate with western society the most, where as those who have the greatest objections to western culture would also preach that Muslims should distance themselves from their fellow British and keep Muslim culture away from the corruption forces of non-Muslim society.

vesp

section4 wrote:

if vesp had any sense he would not waste his time arguing with a couple of software engineers and students who have absolutely no concept of reality and espouse policies and practises they have never experienced themselves but push as if they knew better then every one else, ignoring reality, typical of liberal pc brigade in the london boroughs in the eighties till now , some times in laymans terms called the loony left.

You are right there. However, I doubt they are even software engineers and students. Still, it is interesting to get an insight in to the mind of at least one of the millions of muslims in these islands. I hope for the sake of democracy and tolerance, as well as our economies, that their numbers do not increase in the next 30 or 40 years as they have in the past 40 or 50 years ( from 23,000 to millions ).....because certainly there is no great tolerance or democracy in most of the countries they come from. Lets hope they do not put a fatwa on me for saying that !

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Still, it is interesting to get an insight in to the mind of at least one of the millions of muslims in these islands.

I'm not sure if this is referring to me or Hobbes. I'm not Muslim, so you haven't unfortunately gained any insight into the wild and crazy mind of a Muslim through talking to me.

But when you are finished your little love in with section4 (11 posts on Boards.ie, strange....) you mind get around to actually backing up your arguments. Or at the very least stating your arguments.

Because you don't seem to really want to do that, you seem to just want to throw out largely random and inaccurate "facts" about Muslims and Muslim immigration. And I'm afraid all that does is give everyone else an insight into your mind. I'll let you figure out what the insight might be....

vesp wrote:

I hope for the sake of democracy and tolerance, as well as our economies, that their numbers do not increase in the next 30 or 40 years as they have in the past 40 or 50 years ( from 23,000 to millions )

Why vesp, what exactly happens if they do?

Oh and this is the 4th time you have said "millions" .. I know it sounds nice and all, in an a kinda "oh my God there are MILLIONS here" kinda way, but how do you actually define millions? There has to be a few million surely to claim that something, anything, is made up of millions

Gurgle

The fact that they are now Muslim immigrants rather than 3rd world immigrants says a lot about the effectiveness of propaganda.

Is there any point in noting that 40% of Nigerians (as a 'random' example) are christian?

PoleStar

Yes I am doing it again!

Im expressing an opinion, YET AGAIN!

My personal opinion of Islam in the media is a rather negative one. From my anecdotal evidence, the only experience I have of Islam in the media is in relation to terrorist plots and problems with integration, extremism etc. And in relation to the positivity of those talking about integration as you say, I cannot agree that is the impression I get from them. This is rather unfortunate I do admit as I know those with the loudest voices do not represent the population as a whole.

As for the accuracy of my impression of the media "face" of Islam, although I havent done any research on this, I am fairly confident that a random poll of peoples perceptions of Islam through the media in this country and our neighbouring UK would be negative.

And finally, as I mentioned, there is a lot of petty bickering which you Wicknight seem to want to perpetuate. You keep mentioning my lack of evidence when I am merely stating my own experience. However you seem to be doing the same as me. So please if I am wrong in anything I have said in this post, rather than asking ME for evidence, perhaps you could clarify for me why I am wrong. As an open minded individual I am open to change my opinion.

Hobbes

PoleStar wrote:

From my anecdotal evidence,

The correct term is logical fallacy or the "person who" fallacy.

although I havent done any research on this, I am fairly confident that a random poll of peoples perceptions of Islam through the media in this country and our neighbouring UK would be negative.

If you haven't even done any research how in gods name could you possibly know? Please bother to do research. Let me help you.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253 *

Yes the results reflect what you mentioned but I would say it is because there are many more people like yourself (on both sides) who just simply don't bother their asses finding out more and just swallow the same regurgitated crap the media spins out.

You keep mentioning my lack of evidence when I am merely stating my own experience.

A sample of one means dick. The reason people ask you for evidence isn't to try and prove you wrong, it is so we can look up the stuff to see where you are coming from.

If all you have to go on is personal experience which you clearly don't even bother to check to see if your correct or not, then your opinion doesn't mean anything. At best its all just textual **** that is better suited for a blog then trying to start a debate.

perhaps you could clarify for me why I am wrong. As an open minded individual I am open to change my opinion.

It is up to the person making the assertions to back them up. Not the other way around. It would be like me saying "God exists, now prove me wrong".

* I can see that poll being quickly taken out of context. The poll relates to peoples perceptions to one another, it is not proof that either side is what the other believes.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure if this is referring to me or Hobbes.

Neither, InFront actually.

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not Muslim, so you haven't unfortunately gained any insight into the wild and crazy mind of a Muslim through talking to me.

I never said you were Muslim.

Wicknight wrote:

But when you are finished your little love in with section4 (11 posts on Boards.ie, strange....)

Whats section4 ? And incidentally I have posted many many more that 11 posts on Boards.ie

Wicknight wrote:

you mind get around to actually backing up your arguments. Or at the very least stating your arguments.

I did. You did not read or comprehend them.

Wicknight wrote:

Because you don't seem to really want to do that, you seem to just want to throw out largely random and inaccurate "facts" about Muslims and Muslim immigration.

:rolleyes:

Zombrex

PoleStar wrote:

Yes I am doing it again!

Im expressing an opinion, YET AGAIN!

Yes but why is it your opinion, that is what I'm asking?

I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious.

PoleStar wrote:

As for the accuracy of my impression of the media "face" of Islam, although I havent done any research on this, I am fairly confident that a random poll of peoples perceptions of Islam through the media in this country and our neighbouring UK would be negative.

Oh I'm pretty sure that would be true to, but that is kinda the point.

Why does the population in Ireland and UK have quite negative views towards Muslims, or see them a negative light.

Why is vesp convinced there are "millions" of Muslims in the UK when the official figure is less than 2 million and he couldn't possibly know the number of illegal Muslims in the country. And why does he hold to the idea that a large number of them hate western civilisation.

These are important questions.

PoleStar wrote:

And finally, as I mentioned, there is a lot of petty bickering which you Wicknight seem to want to perpetuate. You keep mentioning my lack of evidence when I am merely stating my own experience.

I know, and I'm going to continue PoleStar

There is a lack of evidence for your position, and for vesps (what ever position he actually has). The interesting question for me is then why do you hold to this position in the first place?

You at least recognise that your position is just an opinion.

PoleStar wrote:

So please if I am wrong in anything I have said in this post, rather than asking ME for evidence, perhaps you could clarify for me why I am wrong.

But you are kinda missing the point. The point isn't really if you are right or wrong. The point is that you have formed a quite specific opinion about this subject yet seem not to really be able to say "I know this because of this newspaper article, or this television program".

That is a worrying trend. Where is this view point coming from?

In relation to your points, I personally have not seem much evidence that Muslim community leaders in the UK have any great issue with western values such as freedom and democracy. They have issue with governments and current policy, as do everyone. They have great issue with things like the war in Iraq. And they have concerns about integration, and the threat of losing Muslim identity as part of this integration with British society, a society that is often quite hostile to them. While I certain don't agree with a lot of it (am an atheist and a secularist, and have objections to the power of mass religions in general), I don't see these disagreements as support for the idea that they are fundamentally opposed to integration of living in the west.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Whats section4 ? And incidentally I have posted many many more that 11 posts on Boards.ie

Section4 is the poster you replied to with post #94 on this thread

vesp wrote:

I did. You did not read or comprehend them.

No, actually you haven't.

You stated in your original post the assertion that Muslims are coming over here despite the fact that they hate our western culture.

Despite requests to back up what assertion with evidence, or to explain why you think that, you instead moved on to discuss the numbers of immigrants here, and to state that Islamic culture has only been in Britian for a "short" period of time.

As we established that isn't actually true, there has been a signficant Muslim population in the UK for the last 30 years or more, but more interestingly it has very little to do with your original assertion that Muslims are immigrating to Britian despite the fact you claim they (I was never sure if this was supposed to be a large proportion or a small proportion of them) have strong dislike for western values such as secular rule of law and democracy.

So, I ask again.

What makes you say that they are coming over here but yet they have strong dislike for our society?

Who are you talking about (you use "Muslim" as a quite wide blanket, but surely you must accept that it is a tiny tiny minority of Muslims in general) when you say this?

You also haven't explained what you meant by this comment -

vesp wrote:

I hope for the sake of democracy and tolerance, as well as our economies, that their numbers do not increase in the next 30 or 40 years as they have in the past 40 or 50 years

Firstly who are "they" and what will happen to democracy and tolerance if "their" numbers increase?

What countries are "they" coming from (the vast majority of Muslims in Europe come from Turkey, which is a secular republic, do you mean Turkey) and why are you strongly concerned about that?