Muslim immigration in to Europe

InFront

No absolutely, I take your point. It's not a one-way-system, Muslims have moral responsibilities to make an effort to integrate with our communities, just like everybody else in this country. That goes without saying.

But there is a very fine line between imposing integration on a person, and making integration an attractive choice. Here is where the immigration debate is important.
If there are rants about how Muslims do not like the west, and need to integrate or 'go home', it's going to do nothing but create animosity and inhibit unity. It just is not productive.

I don't understand what different people mean by "integration". I would consider it to mean that an immigrant abides by state legislation, and that he or she would appreciate the values and traditions of that society, and respects anybody (who wishes to) to apply such values and traditions to their lives.
In my opinion, it mustn't mean that you have to conform to that line yourself, the last thing this country needs is a homogenous line of citizens all marching together in the national interest. That outlook would seem to have very little faith in the spirit of diversity, and celebration of diversity.

Integration is really a very simple thing. I would question why anyone thinks there is a problem with it in this country.
What do people think are integration difficulties? Two Nigerian mothers speaking Igbo on a bus? A woman or a man observing hijab? Killian's Deutsche Schule on the Roebuck Road?
These are all the really great things about the new Ireland, lets not all be the same thing. It's important to remember that while we are all 'glued together' by our community, there is no need to be glued together in our dress or language or religions either, there's no need to be afraid of the change.

Polestar, you refer to Muslims not saying enough positive things about the west. Is that your personal experience of your Muslim friends that you described above, or is that what you hear about from extreme, isolated incidents in the popular media? Lets look first to our communities and ask ourselves 'is there really is an integration problem at all'?

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan.

As I said the majority linked with terrorism in the last few years in the UK were either born in Britian or moved here as children.

Dec 2001 Shoe Bomber

Richard Reid - Born in UK

7/7 bombings

Mohammed Sidique Khan - Born in UK
Shehzad Tanweer - Born in the UK
Germaine Lindsay - Born in Jamacia, moved to UK when 5 months old
Hasib Hussain - Born in the UK

21 July attempted bombings

Yasin Hassan Omar - Born in Somalia, arrived in UK when 11 years old
Ibrahim Muktar Said - Born in Eritrea, arrived in UK when 14 years old
Ramzi Mohammed - Born in Somalia, arrived in the UK in 1990s (no exact date given but he is 25 so it would have been when he was in his teens)

2006 Transatlantic airplane plot
The majority of the 24 arrested (couldn't be bothered listing them all) for the plot were either born in Britian or arrived as children.

vesp wrote:

I am not talking about individuals when I pose the general question ; why do so many people come to the decadent west if they do not like our way of life, if they do not integrate etc etc.

But you have yet to show that "so many people" come to the decadent west who don't like our way of life.

As far as I can see, based on who is targeted by extremists Islamic groups, the people who seem to have the most issues with our western way of life are either fundamentalists Muslims in the Middle East or young Muslim's who are born in the west or who come here as children.

vesp wrote:

More muslims have immigrated in to Europe in recent years than the entire population of Ireland.

And ... ?

vesp wrote:

In some areas more people go to mosque than to church each week.

And ... ?

vesp wrote:

What about the sizeable and increasing numbers who want Sharia Law imposed ?

What about them ... ?

You seem to have forgotten your original statement that "some many" Muslims are coming here when they hate our western way of life, and fallen back on a rather basic anti-Muslim rant.

Firstly wishing that Sharia law is in place does not mean that Muslims hate our way of life.

Secondly the "increasing numbers" of Muslims who want some form of Islamic law imposed in the west are 2nd generation Muslims, born in the west. This is true of both Ireland and the UK, there is a significantly higher proportion of 2nd generation Muslims who wish some form of Islamic law in place.

HelterSkelter

vesp, why are you so trusting of what the UK security forces tell us? These are the same people who framed the Guilford 4 and Birmingham 6. These are the same people who raided the house of a Muslim family in East London last summer looking for a "bomb factory", shot one of the guys living there and it turned out that these guys were totally innocent (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1796442,00.html). These are the same people who murdered the Brazilian Jean Paul de Menezes at Stockwell tube station and made up all kinds of lies to cover it up.

I think you need to open your mind a little and not believe everything the media and UK security forces tell you.

Zombrex

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think you need to open your mind a little and not believe everything the media and UK security forces tell you.

It would be a start if he did first listen to what the UK police were saying since they are saying the biggest threat is British Muslims, not those who come here to carry out terrorist acts.

Dontico

you know, if there was only one religion to choose from, there wouldnt be any problem.
but then we would probably go to war with vegitarians.

islamic awareness week in ucd. will be going to some stuff.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

It would be a start if he did first listen to what the UK police were saying since they are saying the biggest threat is British Muslims, not those who come here to carry out terrorist acts.

Excuse me, they do not say "the biggest threat is British Muslims", as the majority of British muslims are law abiding people. However they will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims. The vast majority of British muslims are in Britain a relatively short time- usually if they are not actually immigrants they are the offspring of immigrants. Actually as we all know the brainwashed first generation immigrants are sometimes more extremist than many of their parents who migrated to Britain.

InFront

vesp wrote:

the brainwashed first generation immigrants

What an idiotic thing to say. Are you just posting this to get under people's skin?

vesp

Dontico wrote:

you know, if there was only one religion to choose from, there wouldnt be any problem.

Even if there was just one world religion - islam - there would still be wars unfortunately. Look at the news from Iraq only a few days ago - a muslim suicide bomber drove a lorry bomb in to a market and killed 90 people. This is happening all the time between shias and sunnis. It puts the casulties inflicted on westerners / coalition forces in to the twopenny place. Look at the war between muslim Iran and muslim Iraq as well , which happened not too long ago ie in the lifetime of most of us. It claimed many times more people than the Vietnam , Falklands, Gulf War 1, N. Ireland all put together.

vesp

InFront wrote:

What an idiotic thing to say. Are you just posting this to get under people's skin?

No. Do you not think the London tube bombers, or the people for example who were detained last week over the plot to kidnap, torture and behead the muslim British soldier ( who had served in Iraq ) were brainwashed ?

InFront

The subject of that sentance are first generation immigrants, who you suggest are brainwashed. You don't mention suicide bombers. If you want to take it back, great.

vesp

InFront wrote:

The subject of that sentance are first generation immigrants, who you suggest are brainwashed. You don't mention suicide bombers.

Yes I did mention the terrorists. Earlier in the samre short paragraph I wrote " the majority of British muslims are law abiding people. However they ( the security services ) will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims ". Of couse a whole generation of people are not brainwashed terrorists - if they were there would be hundreds if not thousands more atrocities.
Now Infront, do you not think the London tube bombers, or the people for example who were detained last week over the plot to kidnap, torture and behead the muslim British soldier ( who had served in Iraq ) were brainwashed ? Please do not evade the question again.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

Excuse me, they do not say "the biggest threat is British Muslims", as the majority of British muslims are law abiding people.

Those two facts aren't related. The majority of Muslims, British or otherwise, are law abiding, peaceful people.

vesp wrote:

However they will confirm that the majority of the people involved or suspected of being involved in the dozens of planned or actual terrorist outrages were British muslims.

And therefore the biggest threat is not from foreign Muslims coming here to carry out terrorist acts, but from British born Muslims attracted to extremism and terrorism. As I said...

vesp wrote:

The vast majority of British muslims are in Britain a relatively short time- usually if they are not actually immigrants they are the offspring of immigrants.

Define "a relatively short time" ... In a lot of cases of terrorism, such as the 7/7 bombings or the transatlantic plot the majority of the suspected terrorists were born in Britian. I'm not sure how their entire lives would be considered "short time" in Britian.

vesp wrote:

Actually as we all know the brainwashed first generation immigrants are sometimes more extremist than many of their parents who migrated to Britain.

So are you now reconsidering you original assertion that they (Muslims immigrants) come over here even though they hate our way of life?

vesp

In one plot uncovered a few weeks ago in the UK all of the suspects were immigrants.

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

The majority of Muslims, British or otherwise, are law abiding, peaceful people.



....the biggest threat is not from foreign Muslims coming here to carry out terrorist acts, but from British born Muslims attracted to extremism and terrorism.

That is the point I made. If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time. Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

That is the point I made. If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants.

Well actually that wasn't the point you made...

vesp wrote:

Wicknight wrote:

Asking why they "come here" is rather nonsensical since they were either born here or came as children with their parents and as such didn't have a choice.

In many of the terrorist plots uncovered by security forces in England in recent months the alledged conspirators were born in places like Pakistan.

But leaving that aside for the moment, going back to my original question, how does any of this relate to your original assertion that Muslims are coming to the west despite the fact that they hate our western values?

Of the small minority of Muslims who seem to have strong fundamentalists anti-western views most appear to be born here or have come here as children. They clearly didn't choose to come here so I understand your original assertion that Muslims are coming here despite the fact that they hate our western views.

vesp wrote:

Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time.

Muslims have been in Britian since the the middle ages. The first large groups of Muslims came to Britian over 300 years ago from India as workers of the East Indian Company. The first Mosque was established in 1860 in Cardiff. Immigration of Pakistani Muslims to Britian has been going on since the 1930s.

But again putting all that aside, I still don't understand though what any of this has to do with the assertions in your original post. What are you backing up your original assertion with, the assertion that they are coming here despite the fact that they hate our western values?

Discussing what the 2nd generation are doing or not doing is largely irrelevant to that assertion since they didn't "come here"

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

In one plot uncovered a few weeks ago in the UK all of the suspects were immigrants.

"suspects", that's exactly what they are, innocent people who have not been proven guilty of commiting any crime. Why don't you concentrate on the people who have actually been convicted of a terrorist offense? Weren't all the 7/7 bombers born in Britain?

vesp

Wicknight wrote:

Muslims have been in Britian since the the middle ages. The first large groups of Muslims came to Britian over 300 years ago from India as workers of the East Indian Company. The first Mosque was established in 1860 in Cardiff. Immigration of Pakistani Muslims to Britian has been going on since the 1930s.

There are millions of muslims in the uk now. There are millions of muslims in France now. There are millions of muslims in Germany now. Are you saying there were millions of muslims in each of these countries say a short half century ago ? What do you think the background of the muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK is? How many have grandparents who were born in the UK would you say ? If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time. Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

the_syco

/me throws in a wrench

The IRA went over to England to blow sh|t up. Why? Cos it works better than mail order. Likewise with the Muslims. The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Hobbes

PoleStar wrote:

Hobbes thank you for selectively quoting my post to misconstrue the overall meaning of my post.

I am not misquoting anything. You are rambling on about the same thing over and over but you know what you have yet to post any proof to your ramble. I am only taking part of your quotes because its messy just to quote the whole lot. People can go back and read the rest.

you seem to have missed the main point which was if I was to go to Saudi (a Sharia governed state) then it is up to me to get to know how things work in Sauid

Again you didn't say this before and you have yet again to post any proof to back up your statements.

You want people to take you seriously start backing your words up.

Hobbes

the_syco wrote:

/me throws in a wrench

The Irish went over to England to blow sh|t up. Why? Cos it works better than mail order. Likewise with the Muslims. The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Apoligies to Syco, but wanted to show a point to the crux of the OPs argument. The vast majority of Muslims in Europe (both national and immigrants) are peaceful and integrate fine. The OP has yet to prove otherwise beyond anecdote.

However the terminology being used "Muslim" is tarring those innocent people with the same brush. Those that are killers/suicide bombers are "muslim extremists". Just calling them Muslim is offensive in the same way as calling all Irish people members of the "IRA".

HelterSkelter

vesp wrote:

muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK

Come on, back this up now, give us links to the news stories where they were convicted in court.

Zombrex

vesp wrote:

There are millions of muslims in the uk now.

No, actually there are between 1.5 and 1.8 million in the UK.

vesp wrote:

Are you saying there were millions of muslims in each of these countries say a short half century ago ?

No? But then that wasn't what you said. You claimed that the Muslim religion was new to Britian and Europe. It isn't, there are been large numbers of Muslims living in Britian for the last 300 years. Because there are more Muslims in Britian than ever before is largely irrelevant to that fact.

vesp wrote:

What do you think the background of the muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK is?

"Background" in relation to what exactly? Economic status, geographical positioning, family status, abusive childhood, deprived childhood...?

vesp wrote:

How many have grandparents who were born in the UK would you say ?

I don't have access to that information, though I'm not entirely sure of the relevance. Are you suggesting that the status of a persons grandparents is a significant factor in terrorism?

vesp wrote:

If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time.

I'm not sure how you are defining "their culture" vesp. Do you mean Islam, because we have already established that Islam has been in the UK a long time.

Do you mean the native culture of their parents? That wouldn't be true either, since waves of immigration from Africa or Asia has been taking place to Britian for a while as well.

There extended family might literally have been in Britian for a "short time" compared with the thousand or so generations that were in the native land. But again I'm not seeing what point you are attempting to support by this fact. Dead ancestors don't have a whole lot to do with the current living generation.

Also I still have no clue what any of this has to do with your original assertion that Muslims come to Britian and Europe despite the fact that they hate our western culture.

vesp wrote:

Its in the living memory of many people when there were very very few muslims in Ireland, Germany , UK etc.

I'm not quite sure what relivence that is or what point you are attempting to support by that statement. Would most people have know if they had actually met a Muslim?

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

The ones that want to blow sh|t up come over for that reason. Sure, they'll recruit a few if their numbers are down, but I say they usually try to be un-noticed by the police untill it too late.

Not quite sure what you are referring to, but with events such as the 7/7 attacks and the transatlantic bomb plot the majority of the terrorist were British born or immigrated to Britian as children.

Those that do come specifically to carry out terrorist acts, such as the 9-11 terrorists, tend to come on temporary visas, such as holiday or student visas, rather than as long term migrants.

If your point was that some Muslim extremists preachers tour around Britian to attempt to brain wash young British Muslims into carrying out terrorism then you have a point. They do, as was demonstrated by that Dispatches program a few weeks ago.

But there seems little support for the idea that the Muslim migrants coming here to live and work are doing so with a strong extremists anti-western feeling.

Which stands to reason, if you hate the place why would you up root your entire family and perminently move here. If the goal was to simply blow yourself and a lot of British people up you could do that a lot easier on a holiday visa.

HelterSkelter

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

Two of the nine terror suspects arrested in last week's Birmingham raids have been released without charge, their solicitor says.

In a statement after their release from Coventry's Chace Avenue police station in the early hours of today, the men said there had been no mention to them by police of a plot to kidnap or behead any soldier.

Their solicitor Gareth Peirce said: "They have left the police station without any better understanding of why they were there than when they first arrived seven days ago.

"Not a word was ever mentioned to either of them about a plot to kidnap or the grizzly suggestion of a beheading or even of a soldier at all.

"Both have been met with a consistent refusal over seven days for any explanation for their arrest.

"They are convinced that others in the police station must be as innocent as they and urge that they also be swiftly released."

Detectives were earlier today granted a further 72 hours to question the seven other suspects.

Eight of the suspects were picked up in a series of dawn raids last Wednesday while the ninth was stopped on a motorway in the city several hours later.

The alleged plot involved a plan to abduct and behead a Muslim British soldier, according to Sky News sources.

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said the arrests had left community relations in the area "in tatters".

He said: "The community feels very angry and victimised. The question we are asking is who will be next?".

Zombrex

HelterSkelter wrote:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

I was under the impression that you have to be told why you are being arrested (ie suspision of murder for example) ... maybe I'm just getting that from too many Law & Order episodes

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

I was under the impression that you have to be told why you are being arrested (ie suspision of murder for example) ... maybe I'm just getting that from too many Law & Order episodes

Not under the new terrorism laws. They don't have to charge you at all.

This is nothing new tbh and there are more examples of wrongful arrests then there are actual convicted terrorists. The OP thinks overwise but has of yet to prove it.

HelterSkelter

Hobbes wrote:

Not under the new terrorism laws. They don't have to charge you at all.

This is nothing new tbh and there are more examples of wrongful arrests then there are actual convicted terrorists. The OP thinks overwise but has of yet to prove it.

Yeah, still waiting on the OP to come up with proof for this little gem...

vesp wrote:

muslims involved in the 30 or more terrorist plots in the UK

vesp

That is what the UK security services are investigating. They are also keeping over 1000 muslims - I think it was something like 1100 or 1200 - under surveilance.

vesp

Originally Posted by vesp
"If the terrorists were not themselves immigrants nearly always they are the offspring of immigrants. Their culture is in Britain a relatively short time."

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure how you are defining "their culture" vesp. Do you mean Islam, because we have already established that Islam has been in the UK a long time.

Yes islam. Islam is in the UK to the extent it is a relatively short time, as we have already established. There were not always approx millions of muslims in the UK, France, Germany etc - far from it.

Wicknight wrote:

Do you mean the native culture of their parents? That wouldn't be true either, since waves of immigration from Africa or Asia has been taking place to Britian for a while as well.

" for a while":rolleyes:

vesp

HelterSkelter wrote:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1250481,00.html

The alleged plot involved a plan to abduct and behead a Muslim British soldier, according to Sky News sources.

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said the arrests had left community relations in the area "in tatters".

He said: "The community feels very angry and victimised. The question we are asking is who will be next?".

What does Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, suggest ? That the security services of western governments allow muslim extremists to terrorise as they so please in these jurisdictions ?

Dr Jafer Qureshi, of the Muslim Council of Britain, would be better off asking questions of his own community. Maybe if a double digit percentage of young men in his community did not support suicide bombings etc, and maybe if more people from his community condemned terrorism, and maybe if more people from his community attempted to integrate, community relations would be better.