Unionist filibustering

luckat

Last week the unionists were saying they couldn't possibly enter government with Sinn Fein unless SF agreed to support policing. Now the Robert McCartney murder is about to be used as the next filibuster.

Before that it was the 'spy ring in Westminster' invented by the British special forces, before that Articles 2 and 3 in the Irish Constitution, and so on and so forth.

How long is this going to be allowed?

Isn't it time the two governments said "All right, you've put it off long enough, now commit."

sovtek

I'm probably showing my vast ignorance of this situation...but aren't the unionist paramilitaries still active as well?

luckat

Perhaps the governments need to really demonstrate to them how it'll be to their advantage to have devolved government.

ghostdancer

sovtek wrote:

I'm probably showing my vast ignorance of this situation...but aren't the unionist paramilitaries still active as well?

yes but the DUP doesn't have any formal links with any of the groups.
several DUP-ers including Big Ian himself started one, The Third Force, in the 80's but it died out.

flogen

luckat wrote:

Last week the unionists were saying they couldn't possibly enter government with Sinn Fein unless SF agreed to support policing. Now the Robert McCartney murder is about to be used as the next filibuster.

Before that it was the 'spy ring in Westminster' invented by the British special forces, before that Articles 2 and 3 in the Irish Constitution, and so on and so forth.

How long is this going to be allowed?

Isn't it time the two governments said "All right, you've put it off long enough, now commit."

Well the McCartney sisters are the ones saying that will be a sign of progress, but the DUP have said for some time that it'll take more than words (which is all we have so far) to convince them that SF are for real.

Of course, the DUP would love SF to hand them a reason to pull out, and that's all SF have been doing for the last X amount of years. At this stage though I'm sure the DUP realise that while a withdrawal could be done with the finger pointing to SF, there's now a pretty good chance that they'll get the blame too or exclusively.
All depends on how it plays out, but I don't expect the DUP to put too many clear cut conditions just yet (maybe in mid Feb as they try to tell voters what they'll do if they retain their majority), at the moment they're being very fuzzy, but it's all part of the game.

cormac_s

i think the upcoming elections will move things along. the facts are the SF have moved on, done what they have promised and have now passed the ball (mostly) over to the DUP. If the DUP do nothing with it, or make more demands, I believe they'll be left with only their hard core support when it comes to election time. you never know, they might consider such consequences in the meantime and decide to bite the bullet and move ahead with powersharing.

to be fair though, they did say that if SF supported the policing board they would go into a devolved government - and SF have done that - but in the same breath, it would be no surprise if they tried to pull the carpet out from under everyone again and stall things for the umpteenth time. after all, they dont really want peace imo - they want land, money and power.

cormac_s

ghostdancer wrote:

yes but the DUP doesn't have any formal links with any of the groups.
several DUP-ers including Big Ian himself started one, The Third Force, in the 80's but it died out.

most unionist parties are linked to the orange order, which is linked to the unionist paramilitaries (think of trimbles dance a decade ago). mightnt be formal, but links all the same

purple'n'gold

Unionists do not want to share power. As a matter of fact they are uncomfortable with peace. They were very happy when the IRA was at war. It made them feel under siege and more British. What really irks them is the fact that to the average English man a northern protestant is “Paddy” just the same as a southern catholic is. Believe me; I have seen this in action.

csk

purplengold wrote:

What really irks them is the fact that to the average English man a northern protestant is “Paddy” just the same as a southern catholic is.

This is to some extent true, however in the grand scheme of things their opinion does not count. It's Mr. Blair's opinion that matters, will he continue to let the Unionist tail wag his governments dog ?

Will Bertie grow a pair and get strict with Blair and the Unionists ? Not likely!

LordSutch

Three days ago Sinn Fein said they would endorse 'Civic Policing' in the North (whatever Civic means)? and unfortunately this use of the word 'Civic' has already got a few people scratching ther heads both here & up North! why not just say that they will support Policing full stop?

As regards the DUP dragging their heels, come on now, how many years did it take the IRA to disarm & disband? and how long has it taken Sinn Fein to come to the conclusion that they will support Civic Policing? & how long will it take Sinn Fein to hand over the murderers & witnesses to the McCartney murder ........................ ? its been two years already.

So lets wait & see what happens on the ground in the coming months and lets see If young Republicans really do start joining the Police, lets also see how long it takes members of Sinn Fein to start reporting Murders, Rapes, Kidnappings & Burglary to the PSNI, and lets see if they can back-up their words with deeds 'before' they are allowed into Government with the DUP/ UUP/ SDLP etc.

I say 'The proof is in the pudding' and if they really deliver then thats Great News for everybody concerned, and the DUP will have no option but to share Power with them (however distasteful it might be) to the DUP.

luckat

The IRA has been stood down for 10 years now. Surely that's demonstration enough.

I honestly think the filibuster is going to go on for years, if it's allowed to.

Voipjunkie

ArthurF wrote:

Three days ago Sinn Fein said they would endorse 'Civic Policing' in the North (whatever Civic means)? and unfortunately this use of the word 'Civic' has already got a few people scratching ther heads both here & up North! why not just say that they will support Policing full stop?

As regards the DUP dragging their heels, come on now, how many years did it take the IRA to disarm & disband? and how long has it taken Sinn Fein to come to the conclusion that they will support Civic Policing? & how long will it take Sinn Fein to hand over the murderers & witnesses to the McCartney murder ........................ ? its been two years already.

So lets wait & see what happens on the ground in the coming months and lets see If young Republicans really do start joining the Police, lets also see how long it takes members of Sinn Fein to start reporting Murders, Rapes, Kidnappings & Burglary to the PSNI, and lets see if they can back-up their words with deeds 'before' they are allowed into Government with the DUP/ UUP/ SDLP etc.

I say 'The proof is in the pudding' and if they really deliver then thats Great News for everybody concerned, and the DUP will have no option but to share Power with them (however distasteful it might be) to the DUP.

I presume that the civic policing reference means that they are not going to help out the Special Branch investigations into activities that republicans were involved in during their "armed Struggle".
Although that will probably be the next Filibuster that the DUP engage in Adams and co must inform on themselves to PSNI special branch including pictures to verify that they are informing on themselves. Preferably they will have sackcloth and ashes for the informing.
After that all they have to do is kiss Elizabeth Windsors feet and wait 3 generations to be decontaminated and then the DUP will think about it.

luckat

csk wrote:

This is to some extent true, however in the grand scheme of things their opinion does not count. It's Mr. Blair's opinion that matters, will he continue to let the Unionist tail wag his governments dog ?

Will Bertie grow a pair and get strict with Blair and the Unionists ? Not likely!

This is the thing. The unionists can continue to find excuses not to go into government with Sinn Fein for 70 years - as they did historically over Home Rule. It's already clear that this is now a game.

To change it from a game into something real, the only way is to make it clear to the unionist grassroots that there are big advantages to them to lean on their politicians to go into the devolved government right now.

El Stuntman

cormac_s wrote:

i think the upcoming elections will move things along. the facts are the SF have moved on, done what they have promised and have now passed the ball (mostly) over to the DUP. If the DUP do nothing with it, or make more demands, I believe they'll be left with only their hard core support when it comes to election time. you never know, they might consider such consequences in the meantime and decide to bite the bullet and move ahead with powersharing.

to be fair though, they did say that if SF supported the policing board they would go into a devolved government - and SF have done that - but in the same breath, it would be no surprise if they tried to pull the carpet out from under everyone again and stall things for the umpteenth time. after all, they dont really want peace imo - they want land, money and power.[/QUOTE]

by a happy conincidence, the exact same things that SF want!

power-sharing will happen for this reason

Fratton Fred

As I have posted on the “Adamspeak” thread, when this is all sorted out, will there be a political career for the unionist leadership? By warning their supporters there are still things to sort out they are telling them to be on their guard and keep voting for them.

I would suggest this is positioning within their own community as much as anything else.

stovelid

Maybe a generation?

Don't think it's just bigotry or even an understandable distaste of sharing government with same-generation terrorists that is making them hedge.

DUP recalcitrance to SF is mostly due to the fact the it's only really that recalcitrance that differentiates them from the UUP (a fact they destroyed the UUP with) and when they give it up, they may lose the current position as main unionist party.

I really feel that power sharing won't be properly realized until the 70s-present players and their shared history(Adams, McGuniness, Paisley, Dodds, Donaldson. McCrea) grey out and pass on.

luckat wrote:

How long is this going to be allowed?

stovelid

so Trimble endorsed a power sharing experiment, was widely vilified and saw his career and party destroyed as some sort of facetious prank eh :rolleyes:

purplengold wrote:

Unionists do not want to share power. As a matter of fact they are uncomfortable with peace. They were very happy when the IRA was at war. It made them feel under siege and more British. What really irks them is the fact that to the average English man a northern protestant is “Paddy” just the same as a southern catholic is. Believe me; I have seen this in action.

csk

luckat wrote:

This is the thing. The unionists can continue to find excuses not to go into government with Sinn Fein for 70 years - as they did historically over Home Rule. It's already clear that this is now a game.

Yes the DUP's whole game is to make Sinn Féin jump impossible hoops in the hope they get tired and fall apart. Personally I think they have now lost their game with Sinn Féin's acceptance of policing. This was a huge step and the fact that Sinn Féin came through united has to be worrying the DUP.

To change it from a game into something real, the only way is to make it clear to the unionist grassroots that there are big advantages to them to lean on their politicians to go into the devolved government right now.

I can't help but feel that Unionist grassroots would not be too far away from the leaders stance. I'm sure that to these people sharing power with Sinn Féin would be like sharing power with the devil which in turn fuels the DUP leadership. That's why we need Bertie and Tony to lean on the DUP.

The historical appeasement of Unionists by Britain suggests Blair may not be the man for the job unless his legacy building gets the better of him. That's why I think Bertie Ahern has to step up and get tough.

I think what can be agreed though, is that the time for pussy footing around the Unionists lest we offend their sensibilities has got to stop NOW.

purple'n'gold

stovelid wrote:

so Trimble endorsed a power sharing experiment, was widely vilified and saw his career and party destroyed as some sort of facetious prank eh :rolleyes:

Yes Trimble did all that, but as subsequent events proved he was going against the wishes of the Unionist majority.

Zombrex

luckat wrote:

I honestly think the filibuster is going to go on for years, if it's allowed to.

What do you suggest..? How do either government "not allow" the DUP to drag their feet?

A Dub in Glasgo

For a start, the British government can stop pouring their taxpayers money into the salaries of the assembly members.

Rock Climber

If it was up to me,I'd send them a bill for the last 4 years for the assembly.
It could be deducted from their real life other job salaries in the form of a penal tax rate,
T'wud be good enough for them.

Zombrex

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

For a start, the British government can stop pouring their taxpayers money into the salaries of the assembly members.

Is that not rather undemocratic? Do as we say or we won't pay you?

Imagine if the British government said that to the Conservatives or the Lib Dems?

I doubt Republicans would be two happy if the British government ordered Sinn Fein to accept such and such or else they would not be paid salaries.

At the end of the day so long as people are voting for the DUP the DUP have a legitimate right to do what ever the hell they want. I don't agree with it, I think the DUP are a bunch of morons, but then I think the same thing about Sinn Fein.

But people still vote for them (they themselves are probably morons), and at the end of the day it is the people who vote for them that they have ultimate responsibility to, not to the British or Irish governments.

RedPlanet

What they (HMG) can do, is give the parties 3 months to form a government.
If the parties cannot do that, or will not do that, then we should go back to the polls.
Election after Election until the people vote for a compromise.
That is the democratic way.
If we have to bankrupt a political party or two or three along the way then so be it.

Zombrex

RedPlanet wrote:

What they (HMG) can do, is give the parties 3 months to form a government.
If the parties cannot do that, or will not do that, then we should go back to the polls.
Election after Election until the people vote for a compromise.
That is the democratic way.

Sounds fair .. eventually the people will get sick of electing them if they do nothing and they will elect someone else.

RedPlanet

Exactly.
Or the people can place demands on their respective parties to form a government.
If it takes a year or more of elections HMG can still claim the higher ground, for sticking up for democracy.

A Dub in Glasgo

Wicknight wrote:

Is that not rather undemocratic? Do as we say or we won't pay you?

Imagine if the British government said that to the Conservatives or the Lib Dems?

I doubt Republicans would be two happy if the British government ordered Sinn Fein to accept such and such or else they would not be paid salaries.

At the end of the day so long as people are voting for the DUP the DUP have a legitimate right to do what ever the hell they want. I don't agree with it, I think the DUP are a bunch of morons, but then I think the same thing about Sinn Fein.

But people still vote for them (they themselves are probably morons), and at the end of the day it is the people who vote for them that they have ultimate responsibility to, not to the British or Irish governments.

Well considering the Assembly was disbanded because of the members refused to work it, I would say it is fair and democratic to stop paying salaries for that assembly. You obviously do not?

They have been taking taxpayers money since 2002 for an assembly but not actually working an assembly. Cut the funds.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well considering the Assembly was disbanded because of the members refused to work it, I would say it is fair and democratic to stop paying salaries for that assembly.

Sounds reasonable.

luckat

Hmmm, well, extra funds could be put aside, for instance, that would be given for schools, hospitals, local development, etc in the unionist grassroots areas - and will start to be released as soon as devolved government is in place, and continue to be released as long as it goes on successfully, in, say, a 10-year plan. Just a thought.

stovelid

'Doing as we say' is providing government for NI as mandated. They currently don't and should only get payed for the job if they perform it.

Wicknight wrote:

Is that not rather undemocratic? Do as we say or we won't pay you?

luckat

Or maybe the next time one bunch walks out, the paymasters should say "OK, stay out and come back when you feel like it; meanwhile the other lot can run the country..."