Something everyone should be aware of...

brianthebard

Fast food nation increased awareness. Not on the Label increased awareness. There are plenty of works of literature and film out there that increase awareness-but in the right way. if you want to show what's wrong with the Irish food industry show us some evidence, preferably not something as obviously biased as the videos you posted.

I don't feel the need to be defensive, I feel the need to correct your apparent lack of knowledge. You freely admitted a few pages ago that you didn't even know about soy bean production being linked to rainforest destruction. Well look up last months National Geographic (or the one before that, can't remember which month) and you will learn something. Look up PETA or any other group of its ilk,and you'll find horse shit.

MadsL

More issues in China than the live skinning of animals tbh.

Shame really, cheap fur from China flooding the market...no class. :rolleyes:

JC 2K3

cormie wrote:

I'm by no means preaching vegan vegetarianism, I'm neither (yet) but I know it's the best choice for us all to take and hopefully this will open up some more eyes to what really goes on to animals and what really goes into our bodies.

I don't understand, why should I give a **** about animals?

I mean, if my dog died I'd be unhappy because I love her and she's like part of my family. But a random cow I have no emotional attachment to? Like I give a damn.

whiskeyman

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (too tired to read all thread)..
I'm sure it's only a matter on time before meat / milk etc.. can be grown and made in lab conditions.
See for some interesting reading. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4148164.stm

The Sweeper

Schlemm wrote:

There does seem to be double standards with regard to attitudes in farming. I find it incredible that there are so many people who object to puppy farms, but would have no problem having a fry up!

I have the same view of people who claim such revulsion at the concept of wearing fur or eating meat that they wash their hands of the whole industry. By taking an individual stand and refusing to purchase fur, or steak, or milk, you're simply denying the industry one person's money.

Personally, I go for the concept of demanding ethically farmed, free range and organic produce, thereby tempting the producers away from unethical standards and poor animal welfare.

What do you think is more likely to make a battery farmer cash in his chicken-cages and invest in some straw bales:

1,000 people saying "I'm not buying chicken any more full stop"

or

1,000 people saying "I'll buy free range, organic chicken thanks"

brianthebard

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

I have the same view of people who claim such revulsion at the concept of wearing fur or eating meat that they wash their hands of the whole industry. By taking an individual stand and refusing to purchase fur, or steak, or milk, you're simply denying the industry one person's money.

Personally, I go for the concept of demanding ethically farmed, free range and organic produce, thereby tempting the producers away from unethical standards and poor animal welfare.

What do you think is more likely to make a battery farmer cash in his chicken-cages and invest in some straw bales:

1,000 people saying "I'm not buying chicken any more full stop"

or

1,000 people saying "I'll buy free range, organic chicken thanks"

Here here. In fast food nation the author pointed out that if Macdonalds consumers demanded only 100% organic grass fed beef the company would change the next day. Why? because they have to provide what the consumer desires. As long as we allow our opinions and voices on the subject to be subdued then there will be no change.

Schlemm

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

I have the same view of people who claim such revulsion at the concept of wearing fur or eating meat that they wash their hands of the whole industry. By taking an individual stand and refusing to purchase fur, or steak, or milk, you're simply denying the industry one person's money.

Personally, I go for the concept of demanding ethically farmed, free range and organic produce, thereby tempting the producers away from unethical standards and poor animal welfare.

What do you think is more likely to make a battery farmer cash in his chicken-cages and invest in some straw bales:

1,000 people saying "I'm not buying chicken any more full stop"

or

1,000 people saying "I'll buy free range, organic chicken thanks"

Absolutely. I was talking to a beef farmer there and he was saying how it's so hard to make money these days with people demanding cheaper meat and all. People are also unaware of the labelling laws on meat here in Ireland: simply put, if meat is imported from and processed here (eg into burgers or whatever) the company selling the finished product can say it is Irish meat. Not 100% sure, but I think that this goes for meat in takeaways and restaraunts too. Standards of meat production in other countries such as Thailand and South America are generally lower than standards here, and people are not aware of where their meat is coming from.

People do not seem to want to face the fact that animals must die in order to become meat, as indicated by the uproar in response to Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver having animals slaughtered on their shows (Jamie should've stunned the lamb first tho!). As well as demanding a high standard at the slaughter house, consumers should demand a high standard of production from the minute a food producing animal is born. Consumers will always find money for things that they consider to be important, as shown by the popularity of organic veg in recent times.

No wonder nobody is going into farming these days with prices so low. If consumers were more demanding the farmers would get more money and production standards would be a lot higher! Farming standards are pretty good here by and large; however the way chickens and pigs are reared needs to be addressed, as well as the consumer's awareness and demands for chicken and pork in today's markets, and the money that farmers would get in return.

Tar.Aldarion

Good luck with it cormie, if you decide to go vegetarian.
A lot of people hold the mistaken view that it is not healthy as you did, I'm glad you found out about it.
Killing animals is not necessary to live healthy lives anymore.
Like you I loved meat, it was my favourite food. I chose my morals over the pleasure of eating it though, gradually realising that I knew it was wrong.

Any questions, feel free to ask here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=572
Or some people prefer to PM me, either is fine.

Here is some info for you about nutrition questions if you have any too.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=290778

Guy:Incognito

brianthebard wrote:

Here here. In fast food nation the author pointed out that if Macdonalds consumers demanded only 100% organic grass fed beef the company would change the next day. Why? because they have to provide what the consumer desires. As long as we allow our opinions and voices on the subject to be subdued then there will be no change.

Would the people be happy to pay a lot more for the food? Or would there be a HUGE thread in "rip off Ireland"?


Oh, and, eat meat, it's grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat.

I'm off to buy M&S burgers and their lovely fluffy buns. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Goldfinger

As an unapologetic carnivore, am I "allowed" to be utterly disgusted, not only at the unnecessary cruelty to the animals shown in the fur video, but also at the "humourous" reactions of so many of the posters here (Chuckie, I'm looking at you - if you think an animal being skinned alive is cause for laughter then you need to see a doctor) ?

How does eating meat and wearing leather make me a hypocrite for saying the unnecessary torture of a helpless creature turns my stomach?
(In case you haven't got it yet..the key word here is unnecessary to the process, kids)

Capt'n Midnight

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

You mean the animals I eat didn't die peacefully of old age?! :eek:
This is truly shocking news.
We must get the word out.

Of course not.
They have been bread to want to be eaten, and the major problem in the meat industry is how to prevent them comiting suicide ahead of schedule.

cf. Ameglian Major Cow

Terry

cormie wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with increasing awareness of what goes on and I don't understand why people are getting so defensive either.

peple are getting defensive because you posted biased videos from PETA, who are a completely biased organisation.
Were you to post unbiased and non-shock tactic videos, then people might take you a bit more seriously.

My take on this is, while I love meat, I feel that animals should only be killed if they are going to be eaten. i don't like that people hunt animals for sport. I find it pointless and they could probably spent their time doing something more constructive, but some folks still do it and they are not going to listen to me.
At the end of the day, we need meat to survive, despite what the vegetarians might say. We are naturally omnivores and no hippy is going to change my mind on that.
At the end of the day, meat is NOT murder. it's par of the human diet and is there for sustinence. We are top of the food chain because we can control our actions and kill animals for fodd if we are hungry. Yes, we could decide not to kill those animals, but then we would be denying ourselves of the nutrition that is neccessary for our survival.
Take your meat supplements and use them as suppositories. I'll continue to eat meat, enjoy it and not feel guilty because some animal has been killed to satisfy my needs.
Choosing a vegatarian/ vegan lifestyle is denying your natural human needs and , in my opinion, you are only fooling yourself.

opposible thumbs for the win.

MooseJam

julep wrote:

At the end of the day, we need meat to survive, despite what the vegetarians might say.

hence all the vegetarians dieing left right and center

Terry

along with all the meat eaters, who are killing themselves by raisig their cholesterol.

I'm still going to go with the evolutionary process that has made me an omnivore.
vegatarianism is just like a religion. It teaches people that certain things are wrong and uses scare tactics to perpetuate these myths.

The human race has flourished over millions of years through eating meat. It is the natural way.
Again I'll use the animal analogy. Are you going to look down on hippos because they eat zebras? No, because it is essential to their survival to eat meat. Are you going to go and feed them meat supplements to stop them from eating other wild animals?
Just deal with it. We eat meat because it is good for us and it keeps us alive.
In regards to the person who said all children should be shown how animals are killed so that it gives them a realistic view on things, I've killed animals for food and it didn't change my view. I still eat them andwill continue to do so.

InFront

julep wrote:

we need meat to survive

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

Terry

InFront wrote:

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

yeah, but they taste like crap.

anyway, resident muslim dude (well, the only one who regularly posts in AH), would you care to tell us about the halal meat process?
It came up a few pages back.
make haste. it's 5 to back up.

InFront

Meat is pretty much N, C, H, O, not exactly crap
As for Halal, this could be your best friend!

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

We don't need meat to survive as humans are omnivores and thus can survive without meat. I would suggest we need some animal products in our diet to thrive. So milk eggs etc plus a well balanced veggie diet should cover you. Iron and B12 are the two biggies. While iron is found in various leafy vegetables it is not as bioavailable as the iron in meat. B12 is not found in veg and has to be added.

Another factor in this is the quality and the type of veg and meat in the diet. When you look at the inuit diet it's radically different to the type of meat we eat. They eat more of the animal, not just the lean portions. They eat the fat, the marrow, brains, sinew etc. Much like our ancestors, at least if you're European. the ancient european diet was very high in animal products, judging from the bone isotope ratios. indeed very close to wolf in levels. The inuit eat largely wild seafood so they get huge doses of healthy fats. the fact is that no matter where you hail from all our ancestors* diets figured meat in the diet. We evolved to process meat. Large canines and stronger stomach acids reduced as we developed tools and fire to render the meat easier to digest.

The grains and seeds that we eat today are a recent thing by comparison. grains and seeds by definition are not very digestible. If anything they've evolved to pass through the gut of any animal that eats them as a method of spreading seed. You generally have to grind and cook them. they need far more processing than meat. we can't even process cellulose ffs. Another nail in the coffin for the mad vegan PETA types. Another interesting aside, when we were hunter gatherer types eating wild meat and plants in season we were taller with higher bone densities, far less dental decay and arthritis compared to the farmers that replaced that lifestyle.

Some would argue that the fruit and veg we eat is in many cases lower quality than would appear. There was some doctor bloke in Galway a while back, whose name escapes who tested oranges from various shops and found that the amount of vit C was very low

MooseJam wrote:

hence all the vegetarians dieing left right and center

Studies have found that veggie types(esp. vegans) tend to follow a more healthy lifestyle anyway. They are more likely to be non smokers and take more exercise. That skews the stats. In any event while mortality from heart disease and stroke are reduced in vegans, overall mortality has shown to be higher in some studies.(read that in New scientist I did)

Oh did I mention that PETA are idiots. sorry if I said that already.

*human populations do vary though and micro evolution in diet does seem to occur. People from India can have difficulty processing lactose as it's not found in high amounts in the diet. Some oriental populations don't break down alcohol as easy as Europeans**. The irish have a high proportion of coeliacs, the theory being that potato starch(gluten free) replaced the grains found in other populations. Fascinatin' stuff altogether. We're a grand oul species.

** This doesn't seem to hold true for the Japanese though in my experience. Sheesh the head on me after trying to keep up with a bunch of them. Ouch.

Capt'n Midnight

julep wrote:

The human race has flourished over millions of years through eating meat. It is the natural way.
Again I'll use the animal analogy. Are you going to look down on hippos because they eat zebras? No, because it is essential to their survival to eat meat. Are you going to go and feed them meat supplements to stop them from eating other wild animals?

I've heard of hippos in captivity eating monkeys but not a whole zebra.

If you look at hunter/gatherers it's the women going out collecting berries and nuts that provide most of the nutrition and calories for the tribe.

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive. Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford. Only the rich could have meat daily. Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

most omnivores are oppertunistic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489792.stm Russian squirrel pack 'kills dog'

Peteee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtWBuv9imxs

Dont kid yourself, if a cow had the chance he'd eat you and all the people you care about

Wibbs

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I've heard of hippos in captivity eating monkeys but not a whole zebra.

TBH I thought they were herbivores. Vicious bastids but veggies

If you look at hunter/gatherers it's the women going out collecting berries and nuts that provide most of the nutrition and calories for the tribe.

Not true. The food gathering is shared relatively equally and men will go for berries etc nearly as often.

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive.

It's the type of protein and nutrients in general that's at issue. One example is conjugated linoleic acid an important fatty acid which is only found in the meat of cows and other ruminants. Forget soya products as well they bring their own issues. It's a complete protein but has none of the vitamins B12 A or D found in meat. Fermented is OK but not non fermented.

Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford.

and the poor in such societies were shorter, generally less muscular and lived much shorter lives. In the early medieval period the rich are easy to recognise because of their stature and robustness.

Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

Yes they survive, they do not thrive.

InFront

Wibbs wrote:

It's the type of protein and nutrients in general that's at issue. One example is conjugated linoleic acid an important fatty acid which is only found in the meat of cows and other ruminants. Forget soya products as well they bring their own issues. It's a complete protein but has none of the vitamins B12 A or D found in meat.

Lets not get mixed up between meat and other animal products here. CLA, b12, Vits A and D are not exclusively found in meat. Even CLA is something you can synthesise from sunflowers. The point is mostly theoretical, but meat is by no means necessary to survive, or to thrive.

Elessar

Peteee wrote:

Dont kid yourself, if a cow had the chance he'd eat you and all the people you care about

This man knows the truth.

Also, if I posted a video about how beneficial it would be to the planet if you jumped off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff?

Terry

InFront wrote:

Meat is pretty much N, C, H, O, not exactly crap
As for Halal, this could be your best friend!

Apologies if i offended you in any way. My question did come across in quite a blunt fashion.
I actually wanted to hear about halal meat from a muslim person, as opposed to searching google. I could check wikipedia, but again, i would prefer to about it from a muslim. The thing about wikipedia is that anyone could have written the article, and while it may be factual (or not), the information would be better recieved from someone of the muslim faith. Also, if there are any jewish people reading this, I'd like to hear about kosher food.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive. Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford. Only the rich could have meat daily. Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

Recorded history only really covers the last 2 or 3 thousand years. That's quite a short time in the entire history of the human race and most of the early stuff contains mythical type stories. I don't think you can judge the entire evolution of the human race based on recorded history.

As for the hippo, there was an article in a paper the other day about a wildlife expert who caught a hippo eating a zebra on film. it's a rare occurence, but it does happen and this was the first time it had been causght on film. I think it was for a show on the national geographic channel.

Seth Brundle

Hippo eats zebra... (from a reliable source )
Hippos aren't all bad!!!

Still IIRC hippos kill more humans than any other large animal in Africa (mosquitos kill more but they AFAIK aren't large!).

Terry

I only really used the hippo analogy because it was fresh in my mind. I could just have said tiger or lion or something.
anyway, there it is in full coluor (and black and white). I know it's the sun, but I doubt they would go the great lengths to fake that particular story.

Divinkee

Here are my views on the topic.

Whether or not the Irish agriculture/meat industry is better or not than the American one in terms of less suffering to animals and the environment you have to ask yourself to what degree is it necessary and when can you it is not ok and not acceptable.

For eg. If the animals don't suffer lifelong, needless, intense pain and sadness as shown in the videos cormie posted, but let's say, only suffered 1/3 as much for 1/2 the time only, is it then ok that we promote these practices by continuing meat eating/fur buying etc? Where do we draw the line and say "This practice is acceptable but that one isn't" Should we just hope that the practices in Ireland are completely different without finding any information out for ourselves and continue to promote suffering and death to animals by continuing to eat meat? That's a question we should all ask ourselves at the very least and come up with out own answer. Cause one thing is certain - the billion dollar meat industry will not start showing us footage or facts voluntarily about the welfare of animals bred for human means.

IMO, Any degree of animal suffering and mistreatment is unacceptable and wrong in nearly 100% of the cases. You could argue that if you were abandoned in the artic, it would be ok/excusable to kill an animal to prevent starving to death and to attain its fur rather than die from hypothermia.

Even if animals were all treated with great respect i.e fed well, received care from the humans who "look after" them, the newborn were kept with their mothers, the cows were not over milked and fed hormones to produce unnatural amounts of milk at their great expense etc, and then killed in a painless way where they also had no idea that death was about to befall them (and therefore had no dread or anxiety of the upcoming event etc) I would still be ethically against their killing and remain the vegetarian that I am. I respect the lives themselves of animals and want them to lead as happy, natural lives as possible.

Why, if the animals were so lovingly and well treated would someone want this happy existence to end and accept their death as ok merely because they like the taste of their flesh? Some people would say it is ok cause they never suffered and led happy lives. The opposite can be argued about the animals living in disgusting conditions in captivity and leading painful, intensely sad lives. One could say that it is "good" to eventually kill them to relief them from such prolonged torture and hardship. If I was one of these poor animals, watching my brothers and parents die slowly in front of me, develop abnormalities and living in squalid disgusting conditions, I would welcome the end.

I am glad cormie posted those videos cause they offer us a small glimpse of the truth and the greatly sad reality as I see it that goes on in the meat industry. I think one of the worst things about the meat industy and things associated with it is that people generally have no idea at all what's going on- they are complately ignorant and clueless about what is actually taking place behind the scenes and away from the plate in front of us at dinner time. This is unnaceptable IMO and is all down to money at the end of the day, with lots of corruption involved also. People owe it to themselves at the very least to become informed and then make ethical and practical choices about their lives. People are entitled to make choices but without any information it's hard to make good ones in general.

I only recently switched to becoming vegetarian by the way. I was pondering for about 1 month to do so and when I saw those videos, and leared more by searching the internet, I decided to make the change and not promote what goes on anymore. Beforehand I was one of those people I mentioned above - I was pretty much totally oblivious to the truths and had a hazy picture in my head that animals were grazing on a field and never even thought about who they were killed. I never wanted to know really. I just lived in some distant hope and never thought much about it. Now I know alot more and am very glad.

To anyone interested in learning more about health visit this link. There are a number of videos from the world health exposition 2006. Very inofrmative - http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/vegsource_tv.htm

This link is to a non profit organisation about vegetariansim - http://www.vrg.org/index.htm

Here's another similar one - http://www.tryveg.com/cfi/toc/

Here is a non profit organisation about veganism - http://www.vegan.org/

All the best

BigRedClown

Pet

As for turning rabbit because some cow eyelashes have been batted, I believe a lot of kids (not forgetting 20-something kidults) should be made to kill and eat at least one animal early in their early lives to understand once and for all cause and consequences, i.e. not only that you can't eat meat without killing an animal, but also that every action has consequences (and I really believe this second aspect is increasingly relevant, not only to all things food-related).

You know, that's a good point. Most people are completely removed from the process that brings meat from the animal to their table. They don't learn and they don't want to. It really would do our consumerist society some good if everyone had to kill an animal for food as part of their teenage years or whatever.

On another point, I was vegetarian for a while, but it wasn't because I was opposed to the idea of killing an animal for food. That's the natural way. What I objected to was the conditions they were kept in before they were killed. This is something that anti-vegetarians miss, all the time.

If an animal leads a happy, relaxed life, and dies humanely, I have no problem with eating it. But if it suffers from the day it is born, I don't want to touch it. Not just out of moral objection, but the meat will be less nutritious, and will probably contain lots of adrenaline (from the animal's own fear/stress), which won't do me any good either.

InFront

julep wrote:

Apologies if i offended you in any way. My question did come across in quite a blunt fashion.
I actually wanted to hear about halal meat from a muslim person, as opposed to searching google. I could check wikipedia, but again, i would prefer to about it from a muslim. The thing about wikipedia is that anyone could have written the article, and while it may be factual (or not), the information would be better recieved from someone of the muslim faith. Also, if there are any jewish people reading this, I'd like to hear about kosher food.

Oh right, sorry didn't know you were serious. Halal is the opposite of haram, haram meaning banned. Examples of haram foods are alcohol and other intoxicants, carnivorous animals, pork, animal fats (e.g. margarine), blood and animals that haven't been killed in Allah's name and according to his methods, or animals that are dead of natural causes.
It's not really a problem getting Halal food in Dublin anymore, and there are plenty of restuarants that are Halal as well. I'm not sure how most Muslims living in rurual areas manage Halal, I know some factories sell Halal directly to customers in rural areas, but otherwise I would guess that a lot of Muslims remain largely vegetarian or maybe don't observe Halal at all.

There's a trustworthy link at the top of this page from the IFI website, which explains Halal food very clearly.

Terry

thank you.

phantom_lord

It's not just meat either. I've already made the move to Soya milk which I'm glad with from watching previous videos on dairy farming etc and it was extremely easy to do.

This is where the milk we drink every day comes from:

You gave up dairy products because video's similar to the second one??? c'mon.

I didn't read the rest of the thread, cause frankly I'm far too lazy to bother...

I_and_I

You know when we started eating meat we most likely used either our bare hands or rocks and sticks to batter our prey to death.... (when not scavenging). Things have gotten slightly better for the animals at least. Why should people protest at humans eating meat when there are lions out there everday slaughtering innocent zebra and the like. Bottom line is meat is part of the human diet and thats not likely to change. Personally I would die before removing meat from my diet.

Tar.Aldarion

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

phantom_lord

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

I'd imagine being 104 gives you a much more open mind than his....

Tar.Aldarion

Exactly. Hard getting into teh NSPC too, but I managed it.

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

Lets not get mixed up between meat and other animal products here.

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe. Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats. Extremes in anything are a bit silly. Though given the choice between a pure vegan diet and a pure (good)meat based Inuit type diet I would go for the latter from the point of health. Sadly quality beluga whale blubber is soooooo hard to get these days(huge source of vit c strangely).

CLA, b12, Vits A and D are not exclusively found in meat.

CLA is only found in meat, specifically ruminant animals meat. Vit B12 of the kind that is bioavailable by humans is only found in animal products. While analogues of vit B12 are found in some plant foods(seaweeds/soya) they're useless to us. Study after study of vegans show B12 deficiencies. This type of diet is also very bad for children. http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Even CLA is something you can synthesise from sunflowers.

It can be synthesised from sunflowers, but it's far easier getting it the "natural"* way. Also there are other compounds found in the complete food that can help absorption.

Divinkee wrote:

IMO, Any degree of animal suffering and mistreatment is unacceptable and wrong in nearly 100% of the cases.

Any degree? Plastic sandals ahoy.

You could argue that if you were abandoned in the artic, it would be ok/excusable to kill an animal to prevent starving to death and to attain its fur rather than die from hypothermia.

Trust me there would be no argument from me I assure you. Wouldn't even enter my head in such a situation. If it did, you wouldn't live long.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion,

Ouch. Get her an all that.

but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

Steady on, eat him? have you been properly introduced? In any case human flesh is pork like and a tad salty apparently. Not appetising at all.

phantom_lord wrote:

I'd imagine being 104 gives you a much more open mind than his....

Well if it's any help to Tar.Aldarion two great uncles of mine(92/97 respectively) enjoy a hearty fry up a few times a week. I must ask their opinion.
*BTW when I say natural, I'm not one of these idiotic hippies that thinks everything "natural" is good and everything "man made" is bad M'kay.

brianthebard

Wibbs wrote:

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe. Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats.

What constitutes unhealthy meats? and why do you include cured meats in that category?

Stark

cormie wrote:

Before you make your next shopping list please look at this and stop to think

I was thinking the other day about all the interesting meals I could make without using meat and how it would be cheaper and healthier too. Now I just have a craving for steak.

I_and_I

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

Yes and its probably why I can't make sense of your eloquently worded post.

Joseph

http://animalcruelty.tk/

Gaspode

As a food scientist and omnivore I find a lot of what is being said here very hard to digest (:rolleyes:), and a lot of the OPs reasonings to be total twaddle. (BTW:If you dont want a debate on the subject why post on a discussion forum?!!!)
A varied diet including meat is the healthiest diet for humans. Excess meat is not good for you in the same way that strict veganism isnt good for you either. You can survive at both extremes, but you will definitley be healthier having the mixed diet that humankind has evolved to consume.

On a minor point, soya milk is not particularly good for you either - western (European) people dont always have the necessary enzymes to digest it fully, so we can get indigestion, bloating etc that we dont get normally with dairy products. Conversely, orientals would have difficulty with our high dairy diets.

I've worked in many food areas including meat and meat slaughter, but it wont put me off meat, no more than seeing the crap (dirt, insects etc) that is harvested with wheat and barley will put me off bread or beer!

brianthebard

Deaddude wrote:

http://animalcruelty.tk/

Is that a Poorly Educated Teen Activist I see before me?

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

Oh right, sorry didn't know you were serious. Halal is the opposite of haram, haram meaning banned. Examples of haram foods are alcohol and other intoxicants, carnivorous animals, pork, animal fats (e.g. margarine), blood and animals that haven't been killed in Allah's name and according to his methods, or animals that are dead of natural causes.

The dead from natural causes seems a healthy idea.

I'm not sure how most Muslims living in rurual areas manage Halal, I know some factories sell Halal directly to customers in rural areas,

I knew a chap of the Muslim persuasion a few years back. Lived in waterford and he got his Halal meat delivered to him. Not very often though, he often bitched about it.:D

but otherwise I would guess that a lot of Muslims remain largely vegetarian or maybe don't observe Halal at all.

Of the Muslims i've known, some drank alcohol, most didn't, but I never knew one who ate pork etc. Appeared to be a big no no regardless of their religious waywardness.

animal fats (e.g. margarine)

Margarine is a veggie oil based. Butter is out but what about marg? Does this mean excess fat attached to the meat? I presume not.

bluto63

Chucky the tree wrote:

Good videos, still not as entertaining as seeing that pig get his head taken off with a chainsaw though.

ooh, wouldn't mind having a look at that

Tar.Aldarion

Wibbs wrote:

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe.

It is completely healthy if you follow it well. That is much harder to do than with vegetarianism. My gf, health freak that she is(sorry honey;)) is such a case I would believe.

Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats.

That is quite true. Most people I know that eat meat eat far too much.

Vit B12 of the kind that is bioavailable by humans is only found in animal products. While analogues of vit B12 are found in some plant foods(seaweeds/soya) they're useless to us.

This is wrong.
All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produces it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it.

Study after study of vegans show B12 deficiencies.

This is wrong. Even studies of vegan children with vegan parents that just ate nori for b12 show no lack of B12.
A study where vegans ate just organic food showed that they had enough b12, and scientists did not know why.
Some studies show that vegans have as you say, some don't. The percentage suffering is usually higher for omnivores also.
I imagine it is because most vegans would eat fortified cereals/foods. Or the few foods that usually contain it.
I'm not saying vegans don't suffer deficiencies etc, just that everybody does, not just them. Most do not have clinical deficiency, very few do. Mostly people that wouold would be from developing countries.
If they cast a thought to their diet(Most do.) they should be fine.
"B12 deficiencies occur primarily when:
1.) Something is competing for your B12 (like parasites);
2.) Something is destroying your B12 (like cyanide in cigarettes); or
3.) Something is preventing the proper absorption of B12 (like inadequate production of intrinsic factor)."

This type of diet is also very bad for children.

It can be perfectly healthy, has to be monitored carefully for children.

Ouch. Get her an all that. Steady on, eat him? have you been properly introduced? In any case human flesh is pork like and a tad salty apparently. Not appetising at all.

It tastes like pork all right, tasty.

Well if it's any help to Tar.Aldarion two great uncles of mine(92/97 respectively) enjoy a hearty fry up a few times a week. I must ask their opinion.

At 104 I have fry ups too and I am still a sexy a woman as I ever was. Fake meat though these days.

*BTW when I say natural, I'm not one of these idiotic hippies that thinks everything "natural" is good and everything "man made" is bad M'kay.

Indeed, that is so. Luckily foods can be fortified with b12, and vegetarians have no trouble with it anyway. Vegans may have more, but many foods are available...

Foodscientist wrote:

A varied diet including meat is the healthiest diet for humans.

Wrong.
It is not contested by dietrary professionals that a vegetarian diet is at least as healthy as an omnivores one, if not moreso.
The biggest health study conducted in the world(I think it took over 20 years.) recommends vegetarianism because although both can be healthy, meat is known to be a cause of some diseases/cancers etc. It may not cause them in a lot of cases, of course.
I don't know what other reasons it cited.

Excess meat is not good for you in the same way that strict veganism isnt good for you either. You can survive at both extremes, but you will definitley be healthier having the mixed diet that humankind has evolved to consume.

Excess meat is bad for you, strict veganism is not if they eat correctly.
I have evolved to be able to digest cardboard, I don't serve it to myself.

I and I wrote:

Yes and its probably why I can't make sense of your eloquently worded post.

That is ok.

wibbs wrote:

The dead from natural causes seems a healthy idea.

A lot of buddhists will only eat meat that has died naturally, if they choose to eat mea at all.

CombatCow

Oh my god............I didn't know you could embed youtube videos into posts! Thanks

InFront

Wibbs wrote:

CLA is only found in meat, specifically ruminant animals meat.

No, you can get it in dairy products as well. And as another poster said, B12 doesn't have to be obtained from animals either.

Originally posted by Wibbs
Margarine is a veggie oil based. Butter is out but what about marg?

Yes it is based on that but there are margarines that do contain animal fats and we avoid these. There's nothing very technical about it: if in doubt it's best to avoid. Spent aages trying to figure out whether Special K was Haram or not a few months ago, didn't really get an answer so am now off it.

Butter is not all out the window either, you can buy butter that is safe to eat for Muslims. Animal shortening or animal fat from haram sources should never be used, if they are from trustworthy halal sources, then they are not haram.

Joseph

brianthebard wrote:

Is that a Poorly Educated Teen Activist I see before me?

Correction:

Well educated very bored teen activist you see

PS: I will be updating it etc I just threw that together in 5 minutes. (well.. about 30 seconds so people could link to it efficiently)

cormie

My reasonings total twaddle? My message was basically people should be aware of what does go on as this food will be available to the majority of people at one stage or another in their lives. Simple as that.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Didnt read the entire thread.

I'm almost vegetarian, had some high quality farmed turkey at christmas & if i knew i was getting good stuff I'd eat it. I also eat fish but avoid other meats/

I have no moral issues whatsoever with eating meat. Just my digestion's muhc better & i don't get heartburn anymore.

I think a healthy option would be red meat twice a month, white meat around the same & look to cut pork out altogether. I think theres a good reason whoever wrote the bible decided people shouldnt eat it. Does smell good I must admit.

Yes early tools were designed for getting bone marrow but based on our bodies I doubt meat was eaten that often. Also worth mentioning the game our ancestors on the savannah hunted would have been something like 4-5% fat (like wild deer) whereas the beef we eat is usually 20-25%

Really think people shoudl just eat much less meat.