Euro Vs Jap

G Luxel

I dont have any interest in Euro spec Japanese models.
I would be happy enough driving this particular corolla, a I.3 X.


If anyone wants to know what happened to the Sprinter, it was replaced
by the hatchback Allex (corolla here) and this in turn has been replaced
by the Blade (Auris here but with 2.4 litre engine). There are no Trueno
or Levin coupes since 2000.

Pherekydes

We don't all drive either European or Japanese cars; some of us drive Korean cars!

Blandness for the win! (and utter reliability)

JHMEG

maidhc wrote:

I know you love Hondas.... but the Civic hatch isn't all that pretty. The Saloon is nice though.

I wasn't saying it was pretty -- I'm not sure what it is -- but one thing it aint is bland, either inside or out.

prospect wrote:

Well, I am biased, but the Alfa 147 is a far more beautiful car inside and out.

Cpoh1, I for one would be inclined to go european over jap any day. I do agree with regarding the technical achievements of the japanese cars. but to be they are all function and no form.

I remembered the 147 after I posted. I agree, it is one of the nicer looking cars in its class, very nicely styled. The interior is nice at first glance but after you look close enough and see that it doesn't fit together that well and the plastics are low-rent, well it quickly becomes a disappoinment.

I do think that this myth about "boring Jap econoboxes with no style" has been invented and perpetrated by European and American manufacturers to try to halt the progress of Japanese manufacturers. When you can't objectively find fault with build quality, reliability, economy or performance, what's left to pick on but style, which is entirely subjective. Tell people long enough and often enough that Jap cars are more bland than Euro or US, and eventually some people will start to believe it.

prospect

Cmar-Ireland wrote:

Jap all the way!!!
The Corolla is the best selling car in the world, having sold over 32 Million since '66

Somehow, I don't think over 32,000,000 people are wrong!

The Spice Girls probably sold about 32,000,000 since 1996 !!!!


I have to say, I was driving into work this morning and this thread was in my mind (sad, i know) as I was sitting in traffic.
From a purely asthetic POV the European cars are FAR nicer (in general).
There was a MKII Punto behind a Yaris, Putno is deffo styled much better. There was a Avensis Verso and a new Citroen Picasso, the Picasso was streets ahead. I also saw a C6, which is styled soooo much better than any equivalent car from the far east. New clio is lovely. 407 is far better styled than avensis etc.

However, I feel the germans let the euro side down a bit. And Honda are the FE's saving grace. The civic is unique (although I hate it) and the Accord is 'nice'.

bazz26

prospect wrote:

The Spice Girls probably sold about 32,000,000 since 1996 !!!!

So did The Beatles, I didn't listen to them either, doesn't mean their music was boring though.

prospect

bazz26 wrote:

So did The Beatles, I didn't listen to them either, doesn't mean their music was boring though.

Which is exactly why this thread will go on an on an spiral into madness.....
Because looks and asthetics are subjective, and argiung over them is pretty pointless.



BTW, The Beatles were/are great.

BrianD3

JHMEG wrote:

I remembered the 147 after I posted. I agree, it is one of the nicer looking cars in its class, very nicely styled. The interior is nice at first glance but after you look close enough and see that it doesn't fit together that well and the plastics are low-rent, well it quickly becomes a disappoinment.

I thought the thread was about flair and interest, not rubber dashboards?

In any case, I disagree that Alfa plastics are low rent and wonder when was the last time you were in a 147. If anything the plastics are higher quality than the plastics in many Japanese cars. I agree that the Japanese interiors are well screwed together and maybe QC is a bit ahead of Alfa. But stories of modern Alfa interiors falling apart are completely exaggerated.

I do think that this myth about "boring Jap econoboxes with no style" has been invented and perpetrated by European and American manufacturers to try to halt the progress of Japanese manufacturers. When you can't objectively find fault with build quality, reliability, economy or performance, what's left to pick on but style, which is entirely subjective. Tell people long enough and often enough that Jap cars are more bland than Euro or US, and eventually some people will start to believe it.

And tell people long enough that Alfas etc. fall apart and eventually people will start to believe that too. even if it's not true. PS if you want to talk about myths, exaggerations, bullsh1t etc. your own signature about VWs needing new wishbone bushes every 20k is a good example...

DukeDredd

RobAMerc wrote:

This thread may cause some angry words but....

Does anyone else out there have a dislike of Jap cars over European?


Does anyone else feel the Toyota Corrolla is epitome of I dont care what I drive, I know nothing about cars, it's just for going from a2b, type thinking ?

Wow! What a snob you are.

Thats some generalisation you make. I drove a corolla for years because i had a piece of sh1t BMW before hand that broke my heart with problems every time i drove it. I consider myself to be pretty knowlegeable about cars. Maybe thats why i bought the corolla! I knew the thing would go right.

Too boring to break down? Please. Is that the new excuse for unreliable Euro cars? How can this possibly be given a positive spin Maybe some people have the time and patience to sit at the side of the road broken down and take comfort by the fact it's a European car they're sitting in - i don't.

Cmar-Ireland

As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder"
Design and style will always be argued over and there will never be a clear winner. But, despite all the car industry smoke and mirrors, Japanese will always win over Euro for reliability and longevity.

prospect

DukeDredd wrote:

Thats some generalisation you make.

DukeDredd wrote:

excuse for unreliable Euro cars?

:rolleyes:

maidhc

Cmar-Ireland wrote:

Design and style will always be argued over and there will never be a clear winner. But, despite all the car industry smoke and mirrors, Japanese will always win over Euro for reliability and longevity

I think the Japs upped the stakes in the 70s and 80s, but to say they are more relaible now isn't that accurate.

From my own experience of a corolla, starlet, 2x Avensi, A mondeo, Focus, and a long line of Audi A4s being in the family, the Japs have been far less relaible with far more serious things going wrong more often and lower mileage.

Every toyota gave major mechanical problems before 60k. The starlet snapped a cambelt before it should. The Corolla, while pretty good always had a tendancy to overheat, one avensis needed a new head and all new suspensions before 40k, another 2x clutches and a flywheel by 60k. All the A4s, (5 I think) needed 1 immobiliser between them, while the Fords have been equally good. The 2006 Passat is a bit of a disaster though!

My father treats toyotas with the disdain normally reserved for Renault! As for driving, the 1995 Mondeo always gets taken before the 2002 Avensis. That says it all.

prospect

Isn't Skoda currently THE most reliable manufacturer?

DukeDredd

prospect wrote:

:rolleyes:

Don't quite understand what that's about!

DukeDredd

maidhc wrote:

I think the Japs upped the stakes in the 70s and 80s, but to say they are more relaible now isn't that accurate.

From my own experience of a corolla, starlet, 2x Avensi, A mondeo, Focus, and a long line of Audi A4s being in the family, the Japs have been far less relaible with far more serious things going wrong more often and lower mileage.

Every toyota gave major mechanical problems before 60k. The starlet snapped a cambelt before it should. The Corolla, while pretty good always had a tendancy to overheat, one avensis needed a new head and all new suspensions before 40k, another 2x clutches and a flywheel by 60k. All the A4s, (5 I think) needed 1 immobiliser between them, while the Fords have been equally good. The 2006 Passat is a bit of a disaster though!

My father treats toyotas with the disdain normally reserved for Renault! As for driving, the 1995 Mondeo always gets taken before the 2002 Avensis. That says it all.

Your opinion of Toyota seems to be going steadily downhill over time maidhc - i remember a time on here you had a post saying it was 50-50 with you between Toyota and Ford! (With you deciding Ford in the end).

prospect

DukeDredd wrote:

Don't quite understand what that's about!

You accused RobAMerc of generalising, and then proceed to make a giant generalisation yourself.

JHMEG

BrianD3 wrote:

In any case, I disagree that Alfa plastics are low rent and wonder when was the last time you were in a 147.

About a year ago.

BrianD3 wrote:

PS if you want to talk about myths, exaggerations, bullsh1t etc. your own signature about VWs needing new wishbone bushes every 20k is a good example...

You read it wrong.

RobAMerc

Let me apologise I actually meant to say the Nissan Almera to begin with, the corrolla is a far more competent car from what I read and is obviously the thinking mans choice of the two.

Personally I prefer Euro boxes as they tend to ride better, handle as well or better, have a better if finish, less road noise, more character, and more flair (to my eye) in design than a far eastern car. (That is something the Far Eastern designers have been trying to capture for years and have pilfered a succession of European designers to try capture it).

Before I buy a car I spend alot of time and effort in checking out the competition before choosing a car and I have to say while I might be accused of generalization I assure you I have done my homework before I list why I think Euro boxes are better.

going slightly ot..
As usual on the Motors forum reliability is the meter by which a car is measured, nothing to do with the dynamics of the cars in question why is that?
It seems funny when I put up a poll recently it didn’t race ahead as the most important thing people look for in a car.

Biro

prospect wrote:

Isn't Skoda currently THE most reliable manufacturer?

No, Honda is. And Mazda is second.
In my opinion Honda is the best, has been the best and will be the best for reliability for a long time.
Toyota seem to be going for a high enough production to beat GM these days, and seem to have taken the eye off the reliability ball.
As for the Audi vs Toyota reliability post, fair enough you had some poor Toyotas, but in fairness you've been lucky with the Audi's. Not that Audi are terrible, but I would not rate them over Toyota. I reckon they're on par these days. Either can and probably will go wrong. It's just a case of how badly and how much to fix.

RobAMerc

Biro wrote:

No, Honda is. And Mazda is second.
In my opinion Honda is the best, has been the best and will be the best for reliability for a long time.

Funny that, of the 20 odd cars I have owned a Honda is the only one that ever left me on the side of the road broken down !

Before people start, I know that is the exception to the rule.

prospect

Biro wrote:

No, Honda is. And Mazda is second.

You sure:


http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top10.html?apc=3128339010848601

P

DukeDredd

prospect wrote:

You accused RobAMerc of generalising, and then proceed to make a giant generalisation yourself.

Ummm....ok i can see how you got that from my post. I didn't mean ALL Euro cars. I drive one myself at the moment! I just don't get a statement like "too boring to break down".

prospect

DukeDredd wrote:

I just don't get a statement like "too boring to break down".

Neither do I, actually it is a stupid statement, but probably mentioned with tongue-in-cheek.

Biro

prospect wrote:

You sure:


http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top10.html?apc=3128339010848601

P

Suppose it depends on the survey you look at. Funny how Skoda are 1st on that list and VW 9th, despite the same running gear. Similar for Audi, 7th from the bottom!!

RobAMerc

prospect wrote:

Neither do I, actually it is a stupid statement, but probably mentioned with tongue-in-cheek.

Maybe I should have put a :rolleyes: after it

But what it means is the car is so dull you forget you have it.

cpoh1

Funny that people are saying euro cars are more reliable than japs and yet in the reliability survey posted earlier 5 of the top 7 maufacturers were all from the east :rolleyes:

All the hatches, saloons and family cars out on the market nowadays are virtually identical. Choosing between a focus and a corolla, mazda 6 or mondeo, renault scenic or avensis verso is preference, all are equally bad handlers (in the truest form) all have equal mpg figures and are nearly as reliable as each other. All are equally boring choices.

Crazy sweeping statments like euro cars handle better than jap cars does posters here no credibility at all. Its very easy to talk about the japs being conservative but since 2000 its hard to see exactly where a euro car has really shaken things up originality wise. Weve had the new focus, mondeo, fiesta (all over conservative in their design-if i remember correctly the new focus was mostly criticsed for not pushing the design out further), All the audis look the same, ditto the bmws (the fantastic z4 apart), the polo, passat and mk5 golf were all old recipies re-hashed (the mk6 is a bit of an improvement). Alfa apart weve seen nothing new by the euro car makers. Compare that to what mazda have done this decade (rx8 and new mx5 anyone???), the nissan 350z and even if its not to everyones tastes the very different primera, toyotas mr-s and celica, honda have made some fantastic and original new cars (the frv and new civic and anyone who thinks the accord wasnt a massive improvement over the older model is mad), mitsubishi evos, and dont forget the new skyline and nsx out in the next couple of years.


From my own personal perspective (someone with a modest enough budget with a massive interst in performance cars) the euro market has nothing to offer. The m and s cars aside (which are nowhere near as reliable as their jap competitors from my experience e36 and e39 models anyway, the e46 m3 is a fantastic car) there's nothing on the market for someone with performance, reliability and and modest price (under 25k) in mind. Compare that with the gtr skyline, rx7, supra, gto, 300zx, nsx, S13/14 and silvias, evos, the list goes on. Even with modest performance in mind, in the 90's the jap cars had the euro brigade beat, honda had the typeR civic and integra, prelude vtec, civic and crx sir vtec, toyota had the celica, mr2 turbo, starlet turbo (as much as i loath them) levins etc, mitsubishi had the fto, lancer mivec, colt mivec, nissan had the pulsar vzr and sunny gtir, god i could go on and on. The euros had a few crap mk3/4 golf gti's and a couple of sri corsas, 106 and 205 gti aside nothing memorable.

I realise that some people have been brought up driving euro cars and are more familiar with them, just because people have little knowledge or interest in jap cars doesnt mean there werent and arent some absolute crackers out there, and just as interesting as the european equivalents too.

maidhc

DukeDredd wrote:

Your opinion of Toyota seems to be going steadily downhill over time maidhc - i remember a time on here you had a post saying it was 50-50 with you between Toyota and Ford! (With you deciding Ford in the end).

I know. The fact our Avensis is now rusting like the toyotas of old has done it for me! Toyota don't want to hear about it either, but I suspect in time they will come around with a little persuasion.

cpoh wrote:

All the hatches, saloons and family cars out on the market nowadays are virtually identical. Choosing between a focus and a corolla, mazda 6 or mondeo, renault scenic or avensis verso is preference, all are equally bad handlers (in the truest form) all have equal mpg figures and are nearly as reliable as each other. All are equally boring choices.

Because there are lots of models around doesn't mean they are boring. I'll take the Ka as an example again. It is different and imaginative. Even pretty cool Jap cars like the Rx7/8 are just refinements on what was once a european idea in the NSU. Even then, the RX7, the Supra and GTO are anonymous enough looking.. same bubbly sort of sportscar look. Compare to the Italian sports cars!

colm_mcm

There are a huge amount of Japanese models that aren't available in Europe. My guess is that most people are basing their opinions on what is available over here.
On that basis the entire Chevrolet range is rebadged Daewoo rubbish. which is incorrect. They have another range of rubbish stateside that we'll never see.

Also, RE: the Ka, it's hardly a stroke of genius lopping the tail end off a Fiesta and sticking a geriatric 1.3 engine under the bonnet

Tanabe

Are people getting a little bit confused here in relation to a European version of a Japanese motor?

Or is the OP specifically in relation to European car manufacturers versus Japanese car manufacturers (strictly)?

I still abide by the Japs on both counts. Absolutely no contest - Japan is lightyears ahead and always has been.

Spit62500

colm_mcm wrote:

Also, RE: the Ka, it's hardly a stroke of genius lopping the tail end off a Fiesta and sticking a geriatric 1.3 engine under the bonnet

If I remember correctly, the Ka was to pioneer the new generation of Ford 2 strokes which were thought to be the next big thing. Ford changed their mind late in the design process and the 1.25 wouldn't fit. I've got a Car magazine feature on it buried up in the attic. I remember being amused at the faintly(!) desperate ads trying to sell the idea that it was a thing of beauty. I always regarded it as abysmal inside and out. It only ever came close to acceptable in black as that colour disguised the plastic that looked like it was trying to engulf the car.

Didn't/doesn't that engine date back to 1954 in design?

maidhc

Spit62500 wrote:

It only ever came close to acceptable in black as that colour disguised the plastic that looked like it was trying to engulf the car.

That plastic was there so the car was more or less immune from getting its wheel arches scratched or bits of it dented.

The 1.3 was never the ideal engine, but by all accounts it is a torquey little thing. Either way, the merits or otherwise of the Ka (or any other car) are not the issue. Just that european manufacturers are that bit more daring to build different cars. Some were a flop (Scorpio; NSU; DeLorean) some are a success (Citroen Traction Avant; DS; 2CV; Ford Focus Mk1; Mini).