Euro Vs Jap

BrianD3

I think it's important to remember how the Japanese car companies are a lot younger than the European ones. Eg Honda first started making cars approx 65 years after Renault and Fiat started. By the time Honda made its first car the Citroen Traction Avant had been and gone and the DS was already in production for several years. The Mini and Renault 4 had just been introduced and the Renault 16 was just around the corner. VW had already produced millions of Beetles. Etc.

Knowing this it is no surprise that European companies have a reputation for being "pioneers" and "innovators" while the Japs have a reputation for being "refiners" and "improvers". IMO there is truth to this and I bet the corporate culture/philosophy in the various companies reflects this even today. Still, this doesn't mean that the Europeans have the monopoly on innovation or that the Japs have the monopoly on building efficient cars which don't break down.

Mojito

I think I would have to go with Jap cars at the moment, very reliable. I'd rather arrive at my destination than be stuck on the side of the road.

As for looks the Celica, MR2, RX-8, Nissan Z, Mazda MX5 and the new Mazda Eclipse are lovely cars and I quite like the new Lexus IS. Now if only they would make a coupe version I'd get one.

I would never not buy a car just because its a euro car or a jap car. The car has to tick all "my" boxes not the neighbours.

bazz26

Mojito wrote:

As for looks the Celica, MR2, RX-8, Nissan Z, Mazda MX5 and the new Mazda Eclipse are lovely cars and I quite like the new Lexus IS. Now if only they would make a coupe version I'd get one.

A little off topic but I think it is Mitsubishi that makes the Eclipse not Mazda. Also there is an IS coupe on the way by the end of the year.

Max_Damage

bazz26 wrote:

A little off topic but I think it is Mitsubishi that makes the Eclipse

Yep, Mitsubishi do make the Eclipse, but only for the American market (although a few do get imported into Eastern Europe, hence why there is a few Eclipses going around Ireland with LT, LV, and PL plates on them.). As far as I know, they are also made in the USA aswell.

cpoh1

maidhc wrote:

That plastic was there so the car was more or less immune from getting its wheel arches scratched or bits of it dented.

The 1.3 was never the ideal engine, but by all accounts it is a torquey little thing. Either way, the merits or otherwise of the Ka (or any other car) are not the issue. Just that european manufacturers are that bit more daring to build different cars. Some were a flop (Scorpio; NSU; DeLorean) some are a success (Citroen Traction Avant; DS; 2CV; Ford Focus Mk1; Mini).

Maidhc re-read my long post earlier about just how non-daring the major european car manufacturers are. how many MR engined cars have the big euros made since the 90's? How many high powered and unique rwd/4wd cars?

And by the way there is /was nothing daring about the focus and the scorpio is/was a bucket of crap, a tarted and fattened up sierra that righly never sold. As for the ka the first things that spring to mind are half arsed, cost cutting and plastic plastic plastic. You dont know enough about japanese cars to compare the euro equivalents if you are coming up with cars like the ones above and saying the japs had nothing better, your summing up of the rx7 as bubbly sports car and unoriginal (it has a twin rotary turbocharged rwd set-up!) sums up the lack of knowledge on your part. Sorry if I come across a bit harsh.

maidhc

cpoh1 wrote:

rx7 as bubbly sports car and unoriginal (it has a twin rotary turbocharged rwd set-up!) sums up the lack of knowledge on your part. Sorry if I come across a bit harsh.

We can argue about various cars all day, and pick examples to prove anything. I know nought about sports cars, and franly don't like them much. I just am of the opnion that European manufactuers have done more to further the cause of improving the lot for the ordinary man... be it the handling of the Focus, the innovation of the citroens, or the fastastic diesel injection system developed by Fiat... or the Rotary engine of the NSU! Maybe, in relation to BrianD3s point, the Japanese industry is now reaching maturity and has the confidence to develop stuff themsevles..e.g. the Hybrid.

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to personal choice... my definition of interesting/non boring isn't fast or quick, or cool. More along the lines of quirky. Japs don't really do quirky.

cpoh1

maidhc wrote:

We can argue about various cars all day, and pick examples to prove anything. I know nought about sports cars, and franly don't like them much. I just am of the opnion that European manufactuers have done more to further the cause of improving the lot for the ordinary man... be it the handling of the Focus, the innovation of the citroens, or the fastastic diesel injection system developed by Fiat... or the Rotary engine of the NSU! Maybe, in relation to BrianD3s point, the Japanese industry is now reaching maturity and has the confidence to develop stuff themsevles..e.g. the Hybrid.

Even though a european invented the wankel engine, the japs were the only people with the balls to put it in a mainstream production car. And what are you talking about handling in the focus??? Ford merely copied the corolla template and built a solid reliable and utterly lifeless car for the masses, its the same with the mondeo. Reliable, boring and more insulting again souless. If anything the euros copied the japs to cater for the ordinary man after seeing the success of the corolla and civic in the 90's.

maidhc wrote:

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to personal choice... my definition of interesting/non boring isn't fast or quick, or cool. More along the lines of quirky. Japs don't really do quirky.

Thats the point maidhc, the euros (besides the odd french car) have done nothing quirky or interesting since the turn of the millenium. The japs have introduced the yaris (digital dash an all), the newer primera (certainly quirky in my book), the new civic, frv and hrv, the honda and toyota hybrids (euro companies have yet to properly join the market), and the new line of mazdas (the 3 and 6 stand out for me). And what have we gotten from the europeans in the line of quirky, interesting and innovative? The dullest range of fords of all time (god how i miss the cossies, older escorts and xr fiestas even if the new line is selling more and more reliable), some average and forgettable french cars (the 406 and c5 are the epitome of this), bland german cars that all look the same and a few saving graces from alfa in the 156 and gta.

maidhc

cpoh1 wrote:

And what are you talking about handling in the focus??? Ford merely copied the corolla template and built a solid reliable and utterly lifeless car for the masses, its the same with the mondeo. Reliable, boring and more insulting again souless. If anything the euros copied the japs to cater for the ordinary man after seeing the success of the corolla and civic in the 90's.

I have never driven a bread and butter Toyota that doesn't lean like a bus! The Avensis does, you get used it it, and it can make progress, but its always nice getting back into the Focus.... you feel more in control, and do drive that faster!

Again it is futile naming cars (how can you argue a Mazda 3 is better or worse than a focus?). Maybe I am just a snob and I like the heritage associated with old Jags and BMWs and Fords. I don't know, but we won't argue anymore about it.

Futureman

RobAMerc wrote:

Does anyone else feel the Toyota Corrolla is epitome of I dont care what I drive, I know nothing about cars

100%.

But IMO, anyone who drives a Daewoo Matizze, a Suzuki Jimmy, or a Fiat Multipla is even more clueless, as these cars actually look like nerds!

Capt'n Midnight

Cmar-Ireland wrote:

Jap all the way!!!
The Corolla is the best selling car in the world, having sold over 32 Million since '66

Somehow, I don't think over 32,000,000 people are wrong!

That's just marketing Bullsh1t. The main thing the ten generations have in common is the name.

If volkswagen used the same name for the "beetle" and the Golf they would have over 45,000,000

The beetle is still the biggest selling design at 21,529,464
others include
Model-T 16,500,000
Lada Riva 13,500,000 ( not including the other Fiat 124 clones )
Renault 4 8,000,000
Mini 5,505,874

32 million corollas over 9 models is only about 3.5 million per model, less than the Peugeot 5, 206, 205 , Hindustan Ambassador , Fiat 500 (Bambino) , 127 etc.

bazz26

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

32 million corollas over 9 models is only about 3.5 million per model, less than the Peugeot 5, 206, 205 , Hindustan Ambassador , Fiat 500 (Bambino) , 127 etc.

I think you have remember too that Japanese models have a shorter life span than European manufactures. So even on average 3.5 million units every 3-4 years since 1966 is still some achievement considering that the Japanese have only been building cars a fraction of the time that the Europeans and Americans have. Certainly nothing to be swept aside as marketing bull****.

cpoh1

maidhc wrote:

I have never driven a bread and butter Toyota that doesn't lean like a bus! The Avensis does, you get used it it, and it can make progress, but its always nice getting back into the Focus.... you feel more in control, and do drive that faster!

Im glad a focus fulfills you driving wise, it just means you are easily satisfied. For me and any other petrol head out there the focus is about as fun or interesting to drive as...jees I cant even think of a poor enough analogy!

maidhc

cpoh1 wrote:

Im glad a focus fulfills you driving wise, it just means you are easily satisfied. For me and any other petrol head out there the focus is about as fun or interesting to drive as...jees I cant even think of a poor enough analogy!

Maybe I am. I am a sight more satisfied than a colleague who blew the gearbox out of his Galant Vr4 after having "fun" driving over a humpbacked bridge and now can't find a mechanic who will touch it with a barge poll.

overdriver

Yeah, it's Mitsubishi's fault that he hammered it over a humpbacked bridge, is it? Seriously, you can't come on here and argue that the Focus has handling worthy of seperating it from the crowd, or making it superior to Jap cars.


And another thing, if Renault and Nissan are now bedfellows, where does that leave people's preconceptions? Are Nissans now more credible, and less reliable, and Renault the reverse? I think not.

A friend of mine is just like this - Japs are bland, Euros have more "flair". He started with a BMW 320, which broke his heart, and he owed so much money trying to keep it on the road that he decided to downsize to a brand new Cinqeucento sporting, which broke his heart. Then a Renault Zafrane, which was alright, but pricy to maintain.

Meanwhile My Carina marched on and on, faultlessly. He drove it and said " There's a flat spot I don't like". Yeah, in the middle of his thought process, right about where decisions are made.

colm_mcm

maidhc wrote:

Maybe I am. I am a sight more satisfied than a colleague who blew the gearbox out of his Galant Vr4 after having "fun" driving over a humpbacked bridge and now can't find a mechanic who will touch it with a barge poll.

maybe if mitsubishi had been a bit less conventional and put the gearbox on the roof out of harms way, the whole incident could have been avoided. idiots.

overdriver

Post of the thread, mate!

maidhc

colm_mcm wrote:

maybe if mitsubishi had been a bit less conventional and put the gearbox on the roof out of harms way, the whole incident could have been avoided. idiots.

The problem actually is the car is impossible to work on.. and my focus, as bad as it may be is more fun than an unusuable galant. I apologise if the sarcasm of my post went above people.

I'm not arguing a Focus has better handling than a Mr2, but it does have better handling than a Corolla. Even the Auris still has a torsional bar rear suspension or 90% or the range. Most of us drive "normal" cars, because we need room for passengers, need the economy of a diesel, but still want something good to drive.

I said at the outset my views are completely subjective, but it HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE that any jap car we owned was only average to drive, and more troublesome than its european counterpart. I also am of the opinion that european cars are more imaginative and creative, and go beyond worrying about power/weigh ration.

My final post on this issue.

cpoh1

maidhc wrote:

The problem actually is the car is impossible to work on.. and my focus, as bad as it may be is more fun than an unusuable galant. I apologise if the sarcasm of my post went above people.

I'm not arguing a Focus has better handling than a Mr2, but it does have better handling than a Corolla. Even the Auris still has a torsional bar rear suspension or 90% or the range. Most of us drive "normal" cars, because we need room for passengers, need the economy of a diesel, but still want something good to drive.

I said at the outset my views are completely subjective, but it HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE that any jap car we owned was only average to drive, and more troublesome than its european counterpart. I also am of the opinion that european cars are more imaginative and creative, and go beyond worrying about power/weigh ration.

My final post on this issue.

Thank god, you have made some off the wall comments on this thread that convey to me you have no knowledge at all about cars worth posting here. Ive given you a host of examples of where jap cars are 10 times more creative and imaginative than their euro counterparts since the turn of the millenium which you've refused to reply to. If you are of the opinion that this is not thecase surely you could come on here and back this "opinion " up with some solid examples of this???

Seeing as the mother just swapped her clapped out focus for a 05 corolla im in a position to say the corolla handles just as well as the focus (for a 5 door family car!), doesnt burn any oil either unlike the blue oval rust badge it replaced.

As an aside the new civic typeR has a torsional beam suspension setup too but I havent heard anyone slate that car yet...

maidhc

cpoh1 wrote:

Thank god, you have made some off the wall comments on this thread that convey to me you have no knowledge at all about cars worth posting here.

I don't read car magazines, no. My line of work bears no connection with cars (at least those that don't crash). However I like cars, and do pretty much all my own maintenance.

I have given examples of the trouble we have got from toyotas earlier in the tread. Rust is one.

I almost bought a corolla last year, and honestly have to say I liked it. My opinion of toyotas has steadily slipped with the experience of our Avensis. Maybe that and having watched Tokyo drift.

Mojito

bazz26 wrote:

A little off topic but I think it is Mitsubishi that makes the Eclipse not Mazda.

Yip my mistake!

bazz26 wrote:

Also there is an IS coupe on the way by the end of the year.

Is this true?? Any links please,

bazz26

Mojito wrote:

Yip my mistake!



Is this true?? Any links please,

JHMEG

cpoh1 wrote:

As an aside the new civic typeR has a torsional beam suspension setup too but I havent heard anyone slate that car yet...

First the double wishbones at the front, now the double wishbones at the rear...

Mojito

bazz26 wrote:

Lexus Coupe pictures

Cheers Bazz. It looks the biz!

unkel

Mojito wrote:

It looks the biz!

Yet another Hoffmeister kink copycat :rolleyes:

And a bad one at that. They can keep trying to copy BMW and in fairness, plenty of people are buying, especially in the USA. But I suppose the eye is in the beauty of the beholder or something like that. Translated in lost

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Yet another Hoffmeister kink copycat :rolleyes:

And a bad one at that. They can keep trying to copy BMW and in fairness, plenty of people are buying, especially in the USA. But I suppose the eye is in the beauty of the beholder or something like that. Translated in lost

I was afraid to say it.

BTW why do lexus use such huge mirrors on the IS? It isn't a bad looking car, but those mirrors are just too big for it.

bazz26

maidhc wrote:

BTW why do lexus use such huge mirrors on the IS? It isn't a bad looking car, but those mirrors are just too big for it.

I presume it is because they are mounted lower down on the door rather than the conventional higher up window frame, this produces a terrible blind spot.

unkel

Indeed. Mrs unkel owns a Rover 75 and the mirrors are tiny, leaving a huge blind spot. Well at least they are heated, BMW style...

romperstomper

Ì don't know if this makes me any more qualified to speak on the subject, but I own a 'jap' bike and a 'euro' car. cbr600 & 300s for any interested. there is no doubt that the japanesse have superior engineering skills BUT it is not ALL about engineering. There are other qualities too. I like the fact that mercedes thought a car might need a/c, remote central locking and crumple zones in !988. I love the fact that Honda managed to get over 100 BHP out of a 600cc engine in 2001. Both have their strengths. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

prospect

cpoh1 wrote:

Thank god, you have made some off the wall comments on this thread that convey to me you have no knowledge at all about cars worth posting here

That is rich, coming from the same guy who said this:

cpoh1 wrote:

Funny that people are saying euro cars are more reliable than japs and yet in the reliability survey posted earlier 5 of the top 7 maufacturers were all from the east :rolleyes:

Another way too look at it is that 50% of the top ten are european.

or

50% of the top 2 are not Japanese

or 100% of the top 1, is European.


Talkk about twisting facts. Are you a politician..???...

bazz26

romperstomper wrote:

I like the fact that mercedes thought a car might need a/c, remote central locking and crumple zones in 1988.

To be fair the Japs were not selling cars in the same market as MB back in 1988 so you are not really comparing like with like. The Japanese were building main stream models which cost a fraction of a basic small Merc. Also even things like electric windows, remote central locking and air con were all optional extras on some Mercs right up to the early or mid 1990s. Granted the S Class did pioneer most things that we have today on main stream models.

I remember reading that in 1990 when MB were about to launch the new S Class they delayed it by about a year because they had to review certain aspects of it due to the huge impact the Lexus LS400 had on the luxury barge market at the time.