Is FG worse than FF?

sovtek

I had a conversation last night with two different Irish guys about who they would vote for in the next election.
Both were not impressed with FF so much as they said that they last time FG were in power they "made a bollox of it".
I then asked them what they did that was so much worse than FF this time around. They couldn't think of anything or couldn't remember.
Now I can't see how anyone could be much more incompetant than FF or more corrupt. Can someone set me straight?

Dontico

yes there is one more party more corrupt and incompetant.
sinn fein.

johnnyrotten

Absolutely

mike65

FG made a botox of it by being unpardonably weak in power, Labour (which was then still the preserve of grumpy men wearing facial hair and cords) wore the trousers and Ireland paid a heavy price. While Garret the Good was spending his energy on staging failed referendums.

Oh sorry I was thinking about 1982-1987 maybe they were too!

Mike.

Avns1s

Reality is that FF and PDs are ok as a "fairweather government". When things are riding high on the economy, anyone could run the country. Brian Cowen has the enviable position of having more money by a long shot than he predicted and still they cannot get the basics right. Crime and Health are chronically ill (pardon the pun!). When FG were in power times were a lot tougher and they hadn't the money to spend such that they could buy support.

If interest rates continue to rise many people will feel the pinch and realise the balls of a job FF are actually doing.

Oh and BTW, while my 'aras' points downwards I won't vote for SF or any party which has any prospect of anything to do with them. Seconded Dontico.

PS not affiliated to any party!

Dontico

mike65 wrote:

FG made a botox of it by being unpardonably weak in power, Labour (which was then still the preserve of grumpy men wearing facial hair and cords) wore the trousers and Ireland paid a heavy price. While Garret the Good was spending his energy on staging failed referendums.

Oh sorry I was thinking about 1982-1987 maybe they were too!

Mike.

devorce was eventually legalised(10 years later?) and the "pro-life amendment" was passed.

Steyr

SF make me want to vomit.

gandalf

Steyr final warning contribute something meaningful to this forum or you will be banned, considering it will be your second banning it will be for a month !!

Dalfiatach

The 73-77 and 83-87 FG/Lab coalitions were pretty disastrous alright. The 94-97 FG/Lab/DL Rainbow were actually fairly good on the economy and domestic matters, but made a complete mess of the Peace Process.

Given that John Bruton is gone, and there's really no damage they could do at this stage anyway, I'm not too worried about that anymore. The current government is woefully incompetent, as someone said above they've only got away with it because times have been good. Just think about people like Cullen and Roche being in charge during a recession :eek:

Even though I'm from a FF family background, I'll be voting for the opposition this time round. They might not be particularly inspiring, but there's just no way they can actually be worse than the current shower of eejits.

MontgomeryClift

Dalfiatach wrote:

The 73-77 and 83-87 FG/Lab coalitions were pretty disastrous alright.

What disastrous changes did they make?

old boy

if martain cullen could waste billions, how coule the oppo do any worse

Dalfiatach

MontgomeryClift wrote:

What disastrous changes did they make?

From the persepctive of a Nordie, the 73-77 junta were the most woefully craven bunch of arselickers and proto-fascists we've ever had. All that "law and order" rubbish, all that "hairshirt austerity" stuff, and the Cruiser in the middle agressively pushing his jihad against anything that remotely smelled vaguely nationalistic. Sacking the whole RTÉ board, witch-hunts against ideologically unsound journalists, Section 31, and the despicable way the families of those killed in the Dublin/Monaghan Bombings were attacked and harrassed. Not to mention the complete failure to investigate said bombings. A truly terrible government, probably the worst since independence.

It's no wonder FF got a landslide in 77. They didn't even need the giveaway manifesto (which started the economic slump of the 80s), they would have won anyway.

The 82-87 coalition failed to get a grip on an already sick economy, tripled the national debt, and wasted most of its energy on Garett's "constitutional crusade". They achieved pretty much nothing at all.

We had pretty good governments in general of all stripes from 87-97 (apart from Bruton's cack-handed approach to the north). Bertie's mob have just been coasting on the good work done in that decade and have achieved very, very little in terms of real reform while wasting billions of taxpayers money on white elephants and ego projects.

nesf

sovtek wrote:

Now I can't see how anyone could be much more incompetant than FF or more corrupt. Can someone set me straight?

Then you don't pay much attention to politics tbh. We have extremely low levels of corruption, even including Haughey, compared to many other EU countries. Things could be a lot worse.


The whole FG/Lab love/hate thing, in my opinion, is strongly influenced by Enda Kenny/Pat Rabbitte. People seem to be divided over whether they are excellent 'opposition time' leaders or just annoying/inept. For people who pay little attention to politics outside of the news, these are the faces of the opposition and from talking to a lot of these people their reactions to the two leaders, quite naturally, are strongly influencing their vote before they even give it any serious thought. Democracy can be as much about your personal reaction to a candidate as their policies/proposals after all.

nesf

Dalfiatach wrote:

They didn't even need the giveaway manifesto (which started the economic slump of the 80s)

Did it really?

InFront

nesf wrote:

Then you don't pay much attention to politics tbh. We have extremely low levels of corruption, even including Haughey, compared to many other EU countries. Things could be a lot worse.

That really doesn't translate onto the domestic political scene. There is really no doubt but that FF have been the object of a disproportionately high number of corruption allegations in comparison to the other parties.

Saying that "ah they're not as bad as the Italians" for example, is really dismissing the fact that the guys sitting across from them in the Dail seem far less steeped in this sort of corruption culture.

This isn't an election between a continental government and and Fianna Fail, it's an election between Fianna Fail and the alternative coalition right here in Ireland. That's where the corruption comparison is important to voters.

Saying 'things could be a lot worse' just isn't good enough.

nesf

InFront wrote:

That really doesn't translate onto the domestic political scene. There is really no doubt but that FF have been the object of a disproportionately high number of corruption allegations in comparison to the other parties.

Saying that "ah they're not as bad as the Italians" for example, is really dismissing the fact that the guys sitting across from them in the Dail seem far less steeped in this sort of corruption culture.

This isn't an election between a continental government and and Fianna Fail, it's an election between Fianna Fail and the alternative coalition right here in Ireland. That's where the corruption comparison is important to voters.

Saying 'things could be a lot worse' just isn't good enough.

Why is it that you read my post as supporting/condoning FF? He said that he could not see anyone being more corrupt that FF and I was saying that he's naive if he actually thinks that. As far as I'm concerned we are lucky that our corruption isn't as bad as some other states, that doesn't mean that I'm condoning it or trying to diminish it but that I'm 'thankful for small blessings' so to speak.

Or is it that anyone not claiming that FF are not as evil, corrupt and incompetent as is humanly possible that gets you annoyed?

InFront

nesf wrote:

Why is it that you read my post as supporting/condoning FF? He said that he could not see anyone being more corrupt that FF and I was saying that he's naive if he actually thinks that. As far as I'm concerned we are lucky that our corruption isn't as bad as some other states

But this thread has nothing to do with other states. It's about Ireland, the OP mentions FG and FF. It has nothing to do with the international scene. It's not a naive point of view at all to suggest that FF are more corrupt than the alternative government. It's spot on, in my opinion. I think most people are well aware of it.

lucernarian

FG were more a party of principle than FF ever were. Right back to the "Working Towards a Just Society" policy in 1965, FG pushed social change more than FF ever did. If Labour didn't have a stranglehold of things in the 90s, FG would have done better. But principle is not so much use in a depressed economy. Charlie Haughey helped turn the economy around, principles or not.

As far as corruption is concerned, I think every party except the Greens have a skeleton or two in the closet. I wouldn't distinguish parties on something which is, by its very nature, secretive and crosses most political boundaries.

The_Minister

old boy wrote:

if martain cullen could waste billions, how coule the oppo do any worse

By making it so that we don't have billions to waste.

Dontico

Dalfiatach wrote:

The 73-77 and 83-87 FG/Lab coalitions were pretty disastrous alright.

it was 81-82 and 82-87.

garret was probably the best leader ever had. in 77 he set up the first ever political youth organisation.

InFront

The_Minister wrote:

By making it so that we don't have billions to waste.

This is probably a suggestion that the government is going to try to lean on for their campaign. What is there in the alternative government's economic philosophies that makes you think they would wreck the economy?

I see why it would be used (with diminshed effectiveness this time around) as a scare-mongering tool, but I would really like to know what basis some people think it has in real facts.

The_Minister

Dontico wrote:

garret was probably the best leader ever had. in 77 he set up the first ever political youth organisation.

He tried to distract people from his bungling of the economy, by holding controversial referendums. He wasn't a good thaoiseach.

There is no comparison between this FF Government and the last elected FG Government. Anyone who remembers 82-87 will be well aware that that Government stank. And it wasn't just stuff about roads going over budget, it was just shocking. If one sat down and planned a distastrous economy, they would use those FG Labour years as the blueprint. One useful yardstick of measuring how they compare is migration, back then everyone left the country, now many want to come here. Sure, FF don't own the ecomomic success this time around no more than they owned it when in charge during the 60s boom. But the simple fact is that we've never had it so good...

MontgomeryClift

Deleted User wrote:

it was just shocking.

What was shocking? Give specific decisions from that time please. I want to know.

MontgomeryClift

MontgomeryClift wrote:

What was shocking? Give specific decisions from that time please. I want to know.

Tbh, I can't remember that Government doing anything. At all. Ineptitude can also be measured by inability to deal with anything, and they get full marks there. They scored a particularly stunning failure on the economy though. They didn't have a clue. Oh sure, the world economy was in a trough, but we were right at the bottom, which was no mean feat. But Fitzgerald's Government managed it alright.

tallus

John Bruton put a tax on kids shoes and it brought down the government. *edit* He was the minister for Finance at the time.

sceptre

tallus wrote:

John Bruton put a tax on kids shoes and it brought down the government. *edit* He was the minister for Finance at the time.

That would be the budget in 82 that brought down the 81-82 coalition. I've been trying to think of an adequate reason for 25 years as to why children's shoes absolutely definitely shouldn't have a VAT charge. I still can't think of one.

If the only thing that happened was the tax on childrens' shoes, then I'd be happy about that era. Instead I remember the unemployment, the emigration, the national debt, the strikes, the North etc. etc.

sceptre

Deleted User wrote:

If the only thing that happened was the tax on childrens' shoes, then I'd be happy about that era.

Ah, missed the point. Happened before the 82-87 government, technically two governments before. Something a bit more meaty than the Harold MacMillan misquote would be more interesting to read. Then again, we've had very few proper discussions about economic policy from the present government (though at least we've had some) so we're unlikely to have a discussion of the 82-87 one that includes anything other than vague rambling recollections (including the mention of the referendums, of which people appear to have forgotten the origin), which is rather a pity as it makes the discussion somewhat worthless. Something more would make the discussion less worthless.

(the distinction I'm drawing by the way, is mainly because if it's reasonable to throw up the January 82 budget which wasn't part of the 82-87 government, then it's reasonable to bring up the 1977-81 government as well and then all hell breaks loose)

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

But the simple fact is that we've never had it so good...

Maybe, but how much better could it be? We could have a working health service, a working justice system, an equitable tax system, working transport infrastructure, a sustainable planning system. 10 years of excuses, ta ra Bertie.

bk

Macy wrote:

Maybe, but how much better could it be? We could have a working health service, a working justice system, an equitable tax system, working transport infrastructure, a sustainable planning system. 10 years of excuses, ta ra Bertie.

The problem I have is I've looked at the FG and Labour policy documents and I've seen no evidence at all that they have any better ideas then FF on how to fix any of these things.

In the areas that I know about, they have said:

- an equitable tax system

Both FG and Labour have promised not to raise tax's and continue FF's policy of low tax rates, so no change here.

The only interesting change is abolishing stamp duty on second hand homes for first time buyers and FF is also likely to do this when the time is right.

- working transport infrastructure

Now FG/Lab have simply nothing to say on this. They both say that the T21 plan is a very good plan and that they will continue to develop it. They haven't given any ideas on how they will improve the T21 plan.

- a sustainable planning system

Again little policy on how they are actually going to do this.

Now I'll admit I don't know as much about health and crime, so I can't analysis it properly, but at a quick glance it doesn't look good.

In health, FG say they will scrap the governments private hospitals on public grounds scheme (which I think is a very good idea), create thousands of new beds, employ thousands of new doctors and give free medical cards to under 16's.

But where are they going to get all the money to do this if they aren't going to raise taxes?

At least the governments private scheme makes economic sense.

As for employing thousands of new doctors are you going to employ them on the current crappy consultants contract or are you going to change the contract and tackle the consultants as FF/PD are currently trying to do?

Now I've heard a lot of people say that FG/Lab are going to magically fix all our problems, but I've seen little concrete evidence of this in their policy documents and little evidence of this in their performance in opposition.