school fees

thebaz

i see my old school , gonzaga, is abolishing fees , i think its a good thing as i found it elitist when i went -- should fees be abolished for all secondary schools, similar to 3rd level !
I think it would be a good move , equal education, and allow people to learn with people from all different backgrounds .

monkeyfudge

Gonzaga? Did he fight Mothra at some stage?

griffdaddy

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free. My old school, Belvedere, has been doing it for years, and it makes the place all the better for it. Fair play to Gonzaga and recently Clongowes for adopting this initiative, if only some of the non-Jesuit schools adopted it, we might see a meaningful decline in the elitist stereotypes and disproportionate entry levels to 3rd level institutions.

Futureman

monkeyfudge wrote:

Gonzaga? Did he fight Mothra at some stage?

Yes - it was known as the Battle of Zelotron, and took place on the eve of Kelzox's triumph over the fastidian gork, who tried to slay the cottiers of Azelloroth!

InFront

As griffdaddy said they aren't abolishing fees at all. And yeah ideally more schools should do it.
They are still keeping it southside though, no Northerners need apply!

Terry

What about the Westies?

Sangre

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Pet

Sangre wrote:

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Or, remembering that this is Ireland, the public schools would just be even more underfunded.

A scholarship system like this makes the most sense.

nesf

thebaz wrote:

I think it would be a good move , equal education, and allow people to learn with people from all different backgrounds .

Is there something wrong with public schools all of a sudden?

griffdaddy

nesf wrote:

Is there something wrong with public schools all of a sudden?

no, but the intake of fees allows them to invest in an infrastructure that makes education much easier and makes the school a better place to learn for those who want to. For instance, my former school had a muti-million euro theatre, a brand new science and technologhy block that would put a lot of colleges to shame, a rooftop running track, and a roof top 5 a side pitch. With the vast majority of scholarship students coming from the north inner city, working class north Dublin as well as a far a field as Tallaght, it provides an opportunity for them that most public schools probably couldnt afford to provide. It's also good for students who are paying fees. That, coupled with the (in my opinion unfair) fact that private schools seem to cherry pick the best teachers gives them an advantage. Having said that, facilities dont necessarily make a great leaving-cert, and that anyone who's going to do well purely academically will probably do it anywhere. In fact, my nearest public school, Colaiste Eanna in Rathfarnham (where all my friends went) is probably one of the finest schools in the coutry, and that's represented in their 3rd level rate and huge sporting achievements.

nesf

griffdaddy wrote:

no, but the intake of fees allows them to invest in an infrastructure that makes education much easier and makes the school a better place to learn for those who want to. For instance, my former school had a muti-million euro theatre, a brand new science and technologhy block that would put a lot of colleges to shame, a rooftop running track, and a roof top 5 a side pitch. With the vast majority of scholarship students coming from the north inner city, working class north Dublin as well as a far a field as Tallaght, it provides an opportunity for them that most public schools probably couldnt afford to provide. It's also good for students who are paying fees. That, coupled with the (in my opinion unfair) fact that private schools seem to cherry pick the best teachers gives them an advantage. Having said that, facilities dont necessarily make a great leaving-cert, and that anyone who's going to do well purely academically will probably do it anywhere. In fact, my nearest public school, Colaiste Eanna in Rathfarnham (where all my friends went) is probably one of the finest schools in the coutry, and that's represented in their 3rd level rate and huge sporting achievements.

Don't get me wrong, I think that scholarships are a good thing. I just don't get this "abolish private schools" attitude that some people have. A school not having fees doesn't automatically make it a good school, and someone's parents paying fees for a child isn't going to automatically make them any smarter either.

Your point about the people who do well purely academically that you make has been backed up by studies (I can think of one done in the US and one in Britian off-hand). Plus, you don't have to have sports facilities at your school in order to do well at sport. There's nothing stopping someone going off and doing on weekends with GAA/whatever.

kevmy

On principal I would be against sending any of my children to a private school for the following reasons.

1) I went to a public school and got a really good education. It's down to the kid if they want to learn they will.
2) If everybody with money went to a private school it would leave a massive imbalance in the system (a la the US). Unfortunately it's a fact that the less well off kids are more troublesome and do not perform as well academically. It could lead to "ghettoisation" of the school system.
3) If I'm paying taxes then I'm already paying for my kids education so why pay a second time?
4) It's my belief the kids will get a better all-round education in a public school. These schools often just grind it into kids and do not give them a chance to learn the subject just the answers. I've seen kids from fee-paying schools who haven't done experiments in science subjects just learned them. They then struggle massively in college. League tables take into account the numbers getting into college but thats it. A massive flaw, they don't take into account how the school leavers perform at or that some people are not cut out for college. We need carpenters and plumbers etc. and a non-fee paying school will set your kid up much better for this.

So I couldn't really care less if some snobby school in Dublin is letting the riff-raff in. We should have more money for our public schools and people should cop on and look past the elitism and CAO points when deciding on where to send they're children.

thebaz

griffdaddy wrote:

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free. My old school, Belvedere, has been doing it for years, and it makes the place all the better for it. Fair play to Gonzaga and recently Clongowes for adopting this initiative, if only some of the non-Jesuit schools adopted it, we might see a meaningful decline in the elitist stereotypes and disproportionate entry levels to 3rd level institutions.

Woops - your right , i thought they were completly abolishing fees , as i thought they already had a scholarship system in place -- ,maybe they are only making this official. Anyway i agree with you it can only be a good thing all round , i always found it weird that they preached equality, and help the less fortunate within a Christian ethos, and then only educated the children of the wealthy ! Same could apply to Blackrock, Clongowes and other catholic institutions

REDZ

Sangre wrote:

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

Private schools get the same level of funding per pupil as public ones

Sangre

You could be right but my point was one made by the Minister of Education. The cost wouldn't come from the teachers but from paying for the land, buildings, sports equipment, computers etc as they are all private property. Its not really a point of debate. Private schools save the taxer payer money.

bluto63

griffdaddy wrote:

They're not abolishing fees, they've decided to take a certain percentage of scholarship students from disadvantaged backgrounds for free.

Sorry, but those kids are gonna get abused endlessly. It's the sad truth.

griffdaddy

bluto63 wrote:

Sorry, but those kids are gonna get abused endlessly. It's the sad truth.

eh what are you talking about? they're treated exactly the same as everyone else, the school captain (as voted by the students of 6th year and staff) in my year was a scholarship student from East Wall. Nobody cares where they're from, we dont stand around in the yard in private schools discussing each other's father's businesses, contrary to popular believe.

Sangre

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

griffdaddy

well you can tell pretty quickly when you find out where they're from, it's not like a taboo to talk to them about it anyway, not most of them anyway

Sangre

Sangre wrote:

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

Same here.

Plug

I tell them im having finanical difficulties, free mocks for me whoo hooo:D

Rovi

Sangre wrote:

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

I'll also concur with this, and this was back in the 1970s. (:()

There were scholarship students there all right, but no-one knew who they were, possibly not even themselves in some cases.
I had fellow students from all over the country, including inner-city Dublin, and the subject of who was or wasn't on a scholarship or whose parents were in what income bracket never came up.

jimi_t

kevmy wrote:

3) If I'm paying taxes then I'm already paying for my kids education so why pay a second time?

Wel, paying private school fees, by proxy, ensures that more money is available to public schools. Contrary to the opinion expressed here earlier, only the fees of the teachers are paid by the Department of Education (this ensures that the best teachers aren't "poached" from public schools for better wages) whereas the upkeep, heating etc... of private schools is paid for by the fees received. In much the same argument as people are making earlier, why should the offspring of the wealthy be putting an unnecessary strain on the system?

4) It's my belief the kids will get a better all-round education in a public school. These schools often just grind it into kids and do not give them a chance to learn the subject just the answers. I've seen kids from fee-paying schools who haven't done experiments in science subjects just learned them. They then struggle massively in college.

I've seen the exact same from pupils of public schools - this is not a problem that can be attributed wholly or even for the most part to private schools. If you're going to blame anything, blame the exam system which encourages and nurtures and environment where privilege can be bought by way of grinds and grindschools - and make sure you understand the difference between a private school and somewhere like the Institute.

League tables take into account the numbers getting into college but thats it. A massive flaw, they don't take into account how the school leavers perform at or that some people are not cut out for college.

Fair enough, but this is not the direct product of private or public schools "grinding" their students. Adults in the eyes of the law and with a lot of students living away from home for the first time ever, the first year of college is a sink or swim time for many. It would be wrong to make any assumptions otherwise.

We need carpenters and plumbers etc. and a non-fee paying school will set your kid up much better for this.

So I couldn't really care less if some snobby school in Dublin is letting the riff-raff in.

Well why have you posted a rant on Irelands biggest public forum?

We should have more money for our public schools and people should cop on and look past the elitism and CAO points when deciding on where to send they're children.

Certainly more money for public schools is necessary, and the whole elitism of certain schools makes me sick but if your child wants to go on to third level education and wants the best possible chance then CAO points are the be all and end all.

swingking

I hate this absolute bull sh1t

I've heard:
"My school is better than your school, because we pay"
or
"We have a better rugby team than you do so our school is better"

The fact we have private schools in the first place, allows kids to immediatly attach this snobbish rubbish.

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

aidan_walsh

The fact we have private schools in the first place, allows kids to immediatly attach this snobbish rubbish.

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

By the looks of it, snobbery has nothing to do with the schools...

Nehpets

aidan_walsh wrote:

By the looks of it, snobbery has nothing to do with the schools...

I go to a public school.. and it sucks. But I don't really mind. I don't need 4 stories, a 5000m running track etc.

Terry

Is there actually a school called "Gonzaga", or is that a nickname or something?
WTF does it mean if there is one?

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

nesf

swingking wrote:

In fact, most pupils of private schools, are bought up in rich backgrounds and therfore are not as used to the real world

What is this real world you speak of? Is it the one inhabited by begrudgers or the one inhabited by people with chips on both shoulders who enjoy making inane generalisations?

nesf

julep wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

You had a prefab? Ya posh jackeen..

thebaz

julep wrote:

Is there actually a school called "Gonzaga", or is that a nickname or something?
WTF does it mean if there is one?

Excuse my ignorance, but i went to school in a prefab until they threw me out.

Jesuits like to give funny names to there schools like Gonzaga, Bevedere ..
Gonzaga was a founding jesuit , it i remember rightly -- getting back to the point i think opening up the school is a good thing, that will make it less elitist and stuffy .. For example it intoduced me to rugby which i loved , but couldn't understand why we couldn't have a football team as well !

Terry

nesf wrote:

You had a prefab? Ya posh jackeen..

Who are you calling "Jackeen"?
I'm from Kildare.
Actually, we had 8 prefabs and they were all joined together. So there!

Rovi

julep wrote:

Is there actually a school called "Gonzaga", or is that a nickname or something?
WTF does it mean if there is one?

Here you go-
http://gonzaga.ie/home/

Named after St. Aloysius Gonzaga, apparently.

nesf

julep wrote:

Who are you calling "Jackeen"?
I'm from Kildare.

You are from the pale, that's close enough.

julep wrote:

Actually, we had 8 prefabs and they were all joined together. So there!

Damn you. I was stuck in this building built in the 30s where they though it was a 'good' idea to have 20 foot high celings and enormous windows, you know so heat loss was maximised. It toughned you up at winter, it followed the darwinian ideals of if you survived to 5th class then you were fit to join the gene pool....

Orizio

Sangre wrote:

They don't announce who the scholarship kids are.

Anyway, in all my years in a private school I never, ever heard someone being slagged for money or for being poor.

Same here.Two years spent in a fee paying school.

I would say that bullying was far more prominent in the Christian Brothers I went beforehand.The idea that all private schools are snobbish elitist schools seems to be gereral bull****.

kevmy

jimi_t wrote:

(this ensures that the best teachers aren't "poached" from public schools for better wages) whereas the upkeep, heating etc... of private schools is paid for by the fees received.

I paid for the upkeep of my old school even though it was a public school due to the lack of funding from the department. We paid about E150 for a single pupil it wasn't compulsory but it was expected if you could afford it. My sciene teacher was forced to buy equipment out of her own pocket due to underfunding. And this is only 5 years ago at the height of the Celtic Tiger.

jimi_t wrote:

I've seen the exact same from pupils of public schools - this is not a problem that can be attributed wholly or even for the most part to private schools. If you're going to blame anything, blame the exam system which encourages and nurtures and environment where privilege can be bought by way of grinds and grindschools - and make sure you understand the difference between a private school and somewhere like the Institute.

I do understand the difference but I've seen it with my own eyes as a demostrator in labs in college and it seems as if private school students don't spend as much time doing simple experiments even though they could afford the equipment a lot easier than public schools

jimi_t wrote:

Well why have you posted a rant on Irelands biggest public forum?

I don't maybe because the posts in the thread up until that point seemed to be from private schoolers talking about the poor disadvantaged people who had to go to public school as if they couldn't afford a proper education.

jimi_t wrote:

Certainly more money for public schools is necessary, and the whole elitism of certain schools makes me sick but if your child wants to go on to third level education and wants the best possible chance then CAO points are the be all and end all.

A lot of parents seem to ignore the wants of their children at the age of 12. Someone who is not suited for the points race and just wants 200 points to do a more practical course or wants to do a trade maybe better of if they didn't go to a private school. They would probably enjoy a public school education better as they would be doing woodwork, tech graph, etc instead of latin and classics.

jimi_t

kevmy wrote:

I paid for the upkeep of my old school even though it was a public school due to the lack of funding from the department. We paid about E150 for a single pupil it wasn't compulsory but it was expected if you could afford it.

Fees in Gonzaga are about 3,500 euro; probably the lowest for a private school in the country. This goes up as high as 10,000 in other private schools. I'm not talking about a voluntary contribution towards the cost of heating and the janitor, I'm talking about absolutely everything.

I do understand the difference but I've seen it with my own eyes as a demostrator in labs in college and it seems as if private school students don't spend as much time doing simple experiments even though they could afford the equipment a lot easier than public schools

The sad reality is that Science at third level, given its points, is a kind of last ditch effort to save face for many students who didn't make arts or higher - the drop out rate in UCD especially is appaling; I know about 15 people in the course and not one of them had any intention of doing it until faced with the harsh facts on results day. This isn't true of all students, but it's common enough to propose as a root cause.

...because the posts in the thread up until that point seemed to be from private schoolers talking about the poor disadvantaged people who had to go to public school as if they couldn't afford a proper education.

Where? I'm all for an objective and rationale debate of the issues, but this is drifting into personal territory.

A lot of parents seem to ignore the wants of their children at the age of 12.

And who can blame them? I didn't know what to do then and I still don't know what to do now that I'm in college - I can only look back and thank my parents for pushing me so as to attain the opportunities a third level education can give someone. It's not for everyone, granted, but

Someone who is not suited for the points race and just wants 200 points to do a more practical course or wants to do a trade maybe better of if they didn't go to a private school.

And inversely, do you not feel that someone who strives academically but is in a LCA or PLC orientated school deserves a chance regardless of their social standing or income? This is what is being argued here - not the sociological phenomenon whereby more and more irish students are pushed to go on to third level as a result of perceptions of education and expectations of status changing with the Celtic Tiger economy.

They would probably enjoy a public school education better as they would be doing woodwork, tech graph, etc instead of latin and classics.

I know plenty of private schools (located in south dublin if you want to be pedantic about it) that caters for the likes of woodwork, tech graphics et al. If you're referring specifically to Gonzaga, it is renowned as an academic school and which, until forced to abolish it by the department in the last decade, gave places based on a stringent entrance examination rather than other more...fiscal criteria :rolleyes:

thebaz

jimi_t wrote:

Fees in Gonzaga are about 3,500 euro; probably the lowest for a private school in the country. This goes up as high as 10,000 in other private schools. :

are you sure ? i thought it was one of the most expensive ones !

nesf

jimi_t wrote:

The sad reality is that Science at third level, given its points, is a kind of last ditch effort to save face for many students who didn't make arts or higher - the drop out rate in UCD especially is appaling; I know about 15 people in the course and not one of them had any intention of doing it until faced with the harsh facts on results day. This isn't true of all students, but it's common enough to propose as a root cause.

Some science courses may be like that but there are many that are quite different. Both in points requirements and standard of student. It all depends on what college you are talking about. To generalise about science in third level based on a few people you know doing it in UCD is just a tad silly.

JIZZLORD

i feel that it can often be true about science. I wanted science, but i had people saying that i could do something "better", even though not much beats an auld physics degree.
i notice it especially during labs, you get complete idiots as lab partners who shouldnt have been allowed into uni,
luckily nuig has a tower, and dad has a gun

nesf

JIZZLORD wrote:

i feel that it can often be true about science. I wanted science, but i had people saying that i could do something "better", even though not much beats an auld physics degree.
i notice it especially during labs, you get complete idiots as lab partners who shouldnt have been allowed into uni,
luckily nuig has a tower, and dad has a gun

Eh, when I was studying physics in UCC the last thing you could say was that any of the people in my class shouldn't have been in university. The standard, both expected and present, was very high and believe me with the way we were pushed you didn't survive first year if you weren't 'good'. My brother is presently doing genetics there and it's a similar situation there from all accounts.

JIZZLORD

i'm studying physics as part of a denominated course, but we're in with general science people too, and while first year weeded out alot of people there still a few who are useless. on several occassions i have done entire labs while my partners didnt do much apart from poking the aparatus a few times.

InFront

It's nothing to do with your leaving cert. I'm doing medicine and honestly, back when we were doing chemistry labs in our first (pre-med) year the aptitude of some students for simple calculations and practical work was really surprising. Many of them are very intelligent people, but just not practically orientated.
That's not a bad thing, there are many different ways of expressing intelligence. So I would guess that because the courses are structured so similiarly and are technically based, there are a lot of people doing science who wouldn't be the most mathematical or spatially intelligent of students.

A lot of it has to do with the out-dated method of assessing abilities in secondary schools here. You can get into science based courses on the back of a heap of languages and 'arts' subjects

nesf

InFront wrote:

So I would guess that because the courses are structured so similiarly and are technically based, there are a lot of people doing science who wouldn't be the most mathematical or spatially intelligent of students.

One of my lecturers once told me that good lab skills either seem in you or they are not. You might get past basic labs where science is an elective but if you either have a good head for it or you don't when it comes to the more advanced stuff. From chatting to people about it it seems to be the case, there seems to be a bit of a division between 'applied people' and 'theory people'. At least insofar as their interests go.

Victor

Sangre wrote:

If private schools didn't exist then the education budget would have to be a lot, lot bigger.

You mean rich people would be forced to understand what other people have to deal with! SHOCK! HORROR!

nesf

Victor wrote:

You mean rich people would be forced to understand what other people have to deal with! SHOCK! HORROR!

Personally I think of private schools as a means for parents to voluntarily unnecessarily seperate themselves from their money. Let them off tbh, I haven't seen or read a single good reason to pay 10k a year to send a child to school and the gap between private and public schools really isn't that big academically (if it exists at all tbh). Then I don't think of running tracks and pitches as good reasons, other's might disagree but I don't view sport as an integral part of schooling, that can be handled quite well outside of it.

nesf

nesf wrote:

One of my lecturers once told me that good lab skills either seem in you or they are not. You might get past basic labs where science is an elective but if you either have a good head for it or you don't when it comes to the more advanced stuff. From chatting to people about it it seems to be the case, there seems to be a bit of a division between 'applied people' and 'theory people'. At least insofar as their interests go.

Yeah, I did thphys instead of exphys. I hated labs and was glad to drop 'em after first year.

melekalikimaka

nesf wrote:

Personally I think of private schools as a means for parents to voluntarily unnecessarily seperate themselves from their money. Let them off tbh, I haven't seen or read a single good reason to pay 10k a year to send a child to school and the gap between private and public schools really isn't that big academically (if it exists at all tbh). Then I don't think of running tracks and pitches as good reasons, other's might disagree but I don't view sport as an integral part of schooling, that can be handled quite well outside of it.

theres no denying private vs public, private does have the edge in general, i have been to both and i found that while public school was grand, the facilities and attention one receives in private schooling really helps, sure some students fall into the elitist camps, but i've seen that happen with people in public schooling too, some people invariably believe they are better than others.

As for sport, I think its very important to schooling, it creates a sense of pride and achievement that really makes you proud, teamwork and self determination are just as good lessons to learn as biology and geography

griffdaddy

What do people think of this perception that we live in a culture of 'the old school tie', and that idea that those who attend private schools end up networking and generally getting more breaks because of their contacts? So far the only advantage of the old school tie i can see is that when i go to the student bar i can either drink with people from blackrock (went there 1st-3rd year) or belvedere (4th-6th year):p

kevmy

bluewolf wrote:

Yeah, I did thphys instead of exphys. I hated labs and was glad to drop 'em after first year.

Opposite here had to do one semester of quantum physics and I absolutley hated it now doing a masters in a more applied area.

kevmy

griffdaddy wrote:

What do people think of this perception that we live in a culture of 'the old school tie', and that idea that those who attend private schools end up networking and generally getting more breaks because of their contacts? So far the only advantage of the old school tie i can see is that when i go to the student bar i can either drink with people from blackrock (went there 1st-3rd year) or belvedere (4th-6th year):p

I don't think thats as big here as in England due to the relatively small number of private schools. It's the GAA or Rugby or soccer here that will make you the contacts for later life.
Overall I not for the abolishtion of private schools it's just that I really don't see the point. If people want to send there kids there let them off I suppose I'll just never understand it.

melekalikimaka

griffdaddy wrote:

What do people think of this perception that we live in a culture of 'the old school tie', and that idea that those who attend private schools end up networking and generally getting more breaks because of their contacts? So far the only advantage of the old school tie i can see is that when i go to the student bar i can either drink with people from blackrock (went there 1st-3rd year) or belvedere (4th-6th year):p

its very much the case, last friday iwas drinking in blackrock, a guy came up to me and shook my hand and two of my friends(whom i went to school with), saying 'you probably wont remember me <inserts my name and my friends names> but i'm <insert name> and i was in first year when you were in sixth, we sat with him and drank til the early hours with his mates, an ol school reunion chat. six years above and eight below your almost expected to go over and converse with your 'friend'. Its nice, but i notice people from other schools do think its rather strange and don't understand it