When will we ever learn?

Heinrich

Taken from the Irish Times, this lemon is just another failed scheme by an inept government. Will we ever learn? This is not tacking crime.

Can anyone out there convince me otherwise?

Garda Reserve to number just 140 at election time
Conor Lally, Crime Correspondent

Recruitment to the new Garda Reserve force is progressing so poorly that only about 140 members will be in place by the time of the summer general election, it has emerged.

If current trends continue it would take just over seven years to recruit and train the full number of 1,500 reservists envisaged by Tánaiste and Minister for Justice Michael McDowell.

The real timetable could be much longer when the dropout rate from the force becomes clear over the long term.

Labour's justice spokesman Brendan Howlin said the figures proved Mr McDowell's "rhetoric has outstripped his delivery".

"Like everything else McDowell touches, he approached this with huge fanfare followed by poor delivery. Up to now he's gotten away with it but it's a con job."

Fine Gael's spokesman on justice Jim O'Keeffe said the figures proved the implementation of the reserve force was failing.

The recruitment and training process is taking so long that five months after the first group began training , the Reserve Force has just 36 fully qualified members.

A second class, numbering 53 recruits, began training at the Garda College, Templemore, Co Tipperary, on January 20th.

A third class of trainees, which will also number around 50, is scheduled to begin training next month. These will be qualified just before the election is due to take place.

It will mean that the number of fully qualified reservists will reach about 140 in May, some eight months after recruitment began.

A spokeswoman for Mr McDowell said the Minister and the department were "relaxed" about the recruitment drive. She said it was always envisaged that recruitment would take place over a long period. When spare capacity became available in the Garda college towards the end of 2008 training would be accelerated.

The Garda Reserve recruitment figures were released by Mr McDowell in a Dáil reply to Fianna Fáil TD Charlie O'Connor.

The figures show that of the 36 reservists already qualified 24 are based in inner-city Dublin stations with 11 in Store Street and 13 in Pearse Street. A further seven have been assigned to Cork city's Anglesea Street, four to Galway City and one to Sligo.

gandalf

Ah McDowell talking the talk but doesn't seem up to walking the walk.

This is another example of this government being run by spin and subterfuge.

"We're spending XXX millions more on the health service"

Well if you piss €220 million away on a payment system that doesn't work you are bound to.

I cannot believe that even FF supporters are not getting angry over the antics of this pack of Marie Antonettes, they are so far out of touch with the people of this country its mindboggling!!!

The_Minister

I thnk that the Garda reserve was a good idea. I've seen the ads around the place for the Garda reserve, so it is being advertised, I wouldn't expect a huge number at first. People will join as their friends and family become involved, the rate of applications will probably (hopefully) pick up. give it more time, its a big undertaking.

@Gandalf: Maybe we vote for the government parties because we can see the improvements being made in health.

KerranJast

Does anyone have figures for how many Gardai are in the force? We were promised at the last election 2000 extra personnel. Since then McDowell has tried to squirm his way out of that promise by trying to count reservists and then the number of Gardai being trained as counting towards that 2000 figure. We were promised 2000 net extra Minister.

ballooba

The whole justice thing is a mess. Our jails are full, our judges don't want to send more people to jail than they have to, Gardai get frustrated when they catch people and then they get off, Criminals have little deterrent to keep on the straight and narrow.

Civilianisation of the force is a good idea to get more Gardai on the streets. I don't think the Garda reserve is inherently a bad idea. Perhaps it could have been implemented better, with more input from 'Real' Gardai and their backing.

We also need to be tackling the causes of crime as well. This includes repeat offenders and juvenile offenders. What we are doing at the moment is not working.

The_Minister wrote:

@Gandalf: Maybe we vote for the government parties because we can see the improvements being made in health.

I like lamp. The 1% party are doomed.

The_Minister

ballooba wrote:

I like lamp. The 1% party are doomed.

1% according to a survey that measured less than 30 people in some constituencies. Any survey with less than a thousand people is useless.

ballooba

The_Minister wrote:

1% according to a survey that measured less than 30 people in some constituencies. Any survey with less than a thousand people is useless.

Then you should like the TNS/MRBI poll. It actually did poll 1,000 people.

Ouch! You might have to think of another excuse for denial there.

Mary Harney's tenure at the Department of Health and Children has nothing to do with this thread other than Gandalf mentioned health spending in passing. Harney is also likely to retire at the G.E. so she won't be a factor in determining how people vote.

Also: 1000 / 43 = 23

The average number of respondents per constituency with a total of 1000 respondents is considerably less than 30.

D'oh!

gandalf

The_Minister wrote:

I thnk that the Garda reserve was a good idea. I've seen the ads around the place for the Garda reserve, so it is being advertised, I wouldn't expect a huge number at first. People will join as their friends and family become involved, the rate of applications will probably (hopefully) pick up. give it more time, its a big undertaking.

Or maybe it won't pick up unless the general crime situation improves and potential applicants feel comfortable that they will be supported fully by the rank and file of the force.

What does interest me is how close we are to the additional 2000 promised, I have a feeling that McDowell will as usual fall short of this figure.

@Gandalf: Maybe we vote for the government parties because we can see the improvements being made in health.

I'm not going into detail on my experiences as I have in several threads already on this forum. From my experiences due to Family illnesses over the last 12 years or so there has been a dramatic disimprovement in the health service both in response times and in the cleanliness of hospitals.

I'd be very interested in what areas of the health service has improved in your opinion during the tenure of this government. Please list them.

Rock Climber

ballooba wrote:

Ouch! You might have to think of another excuse for denial there.

In fairness you can't measure a small party's potential performance in individual constituencies by a national poll.
If that poll was run in say Dublin South East for examples,the P.D's would be on a quota and not 1%.

Like I said before the same applies to Sinn Féin,theyare at a certain figure nationally but very high in indicidual constituencies.
Ergo also, national polls are meaningless when trying to quantify how they will do.

I'd also be interested in a reply from the_minister to Gandalf,as from what I hear theres been no improvements in the health service only money wastage.
And as for cleanliness :rolleyes:
What a government should do is get a couple of cleanliness czar's into every hospital with the power to sack the lazy and incompetant.

ballooba

Rock Climber wrote:

In fairness you can't measure a small party's potential performance in individual constituencies by a national poll.

I never said you could. It's a good indication however, and the best system we have.

Rock Climber wrote:

If that poll was run in say Dublin South East for examples,the P.D's would be on a quota and not 1%.

The only polls done on a constituency level are by the parties. These have limited use, but they do show the PDs doing poorly in that particular constituency.

Rock Climber wrote:

What a government should do is get a couple of cleanliness czar's into every hospital with the power to sack the lazy and incompetant.

A lot of the cleanliness problems, as pointed out on The Late Late Show dealing with MRSA, are down to outsourcing of hygiene management. Contract cleaners are run for profit and compete for the contracts. The cleaners have insufficient time to do their jobs properly.

The_Minister

gandalf wrote:

I'm not going into detail on my experiences as I have in several threads already on this forum.

I don't recall those posts, so if I say anything that seems hurtful in this post, in the context of revelations that you have made in other threads, then please forgive me.

gandalf wrote:

From my experiences due to Family illnesses over the last 12 years or so there has been a dramatic disimprovement in the health service both in response times and in the cleanliness of hospitals.

I'd be very interested in what areas of the health service has improved in your opinion during the tenure of this government. Please list them.

I could quote off reams of figures to you about waiting lists being cut down to a 1/4 of their size etc., but, I won't, as you hear these figures daily, repeat them.
I will however, refer to the fact that I work as a caterer in a large Dublin hospital, and would have to deal directly with levels of cleanliness, and hygiene. I have worked part-time at the job for about 13 months now, and there is a huge amount of reform that has happened in that short time. Since I have been there, every week we recieve new training in cleaning and hygiene (we have to clean the ward kitchen in which we work), new practices have been introduced, such as wrapping bread in cling-film to stop the air getting at it, prevent mould spreading, and keeping it bacteria-free. Before we give out meals, we must check the temperatures of each meal before we distribute them, to make sure that they match a certain temperature. These temperatures are then checked. We have been given seminars on hygiene and MRSA.
The spot-checks by the HSE keep people on their toes. We are audited every now and then, and it is to the standard of those audits that we are measured. 91% of hospitals failed the first audit, now the majority have surpassed the standards, and I will tell you know, we are made constantly aware of our hospitals standing in the tables.
The level of supervision that we recieve is constantly increasing, with our managers terrified of the hospital being caught with a dirty kitchen. Every inch of our kitchens are scrubbed several times daily.
A good example of increased cleanliness is that our old wooden trays have been replaced with plastic dishwasher-friendly ones, so that your dinner trays are now disinfected by machine, rather than simply washed by hand.
I'm not being very coherant, but basically what I mean is that if anything, cleanliness has vastly increased in the last two years, since Harney took office, and even before that, according to the other workers who predate me, it wasn't that bad. If you tell me what you mean by the lack of cleanliness then I can be more precise, as its a big area.

EDIT: One of the best examples of how clean we are, is that cellotape is now banned from kitchens, as the residue it leaves can feed bacteria.

Rock_Climber wrote:

What a government should do is get a couple of cleanliness czar's into every hospital with the power to sack the lazy and incompetant.

We have them, they just don't have crap job titles. I've seen people given official warnings, and I saw one girl sacked on the spot, for unhygienic practices. Managers already have and use these powers, the problem is, that they can't watch us all the time, and its foolish to think that they could. They do spot checks, but they can't really do much more.


EDIT: I should say now, that I will not defend Fianna Fail, it's only since Harney got the post that real progress has been made.

gandalf

So the best you can do is the food is more hygenic, hmmm not very good. The last time I had experience of A&E which was 9 months ago it was a 3 day wait to get to a bed in a ward, the wards were filthy and tbh they always will be when the hospital is maxed out which they are. There should be enough capacity to allow wards to be cleared out and cleaned properly. From what I hear from people who have been in since it hasn't changed much, maybe the food is better but when you are in fear for your life a nice clean tray doesn't really comfort you that much now does it.

gandalf

The_Minister wrote:

EDIT: I should say now, that I will not defend Fianna Fail, it's only since Harney got the post that real progress has been made.

Well what the hell has she been doing in GOVERNMENT for time before she took on the portfolio, was she asleep during cabinet meetings. As part of the GOVERNMENT she is responsible for its actions, you cannot separate the PD's from FF in this respect.

In the ten years in power they have done bugger all to make sure the people of this country get a better more efficient service, they have done what this government does so well, waste our tax monies on a grant scale.

Villain

A close family member of mine got MRSA in a top Irish hospital about 8 years ago and that time nobody in the media was talking about and very few people knew what it was or how patients were getting it.

At that time I remember reading an article from Australia which stated that when hospital's there had MRSA infections they closed down the hospital's level by level until they were confident that the MRSA threat was gone, the thinking was you couldn't have a hospital being used by patients and get rid of the infection at the same time.

We are 8 years on and we are trying to get rid of MRSA from hospitals that are badly overcrowded and as Gandalf says Harney was at cabinet for all of those 8 years, changing Ministers doesn't mean that the Government can excuse the issues, FF and PD's have had 10 years to make an impact on Health and Crime and they have FAILED.

Actually apologies Gandalf I didn't notice how far off topic I am here.

I'm starting a new thread on MRSA, sorry.

gandalf

NP I hijacked the thread originally. I'll move my ire to the MRSA thread.

Hotblack Desiato

gandalf wrote:

So the best you can do is the food is more hygenic, hmmm not very good.

Actually it is extremely important, but only one of the many areas to be addressed.

The Minister gave an example, from their personal experience, of how practices in that area have been tightened up considerably.

That doesn't mean that nothing is being done in the other areas and it's extremely unfair on the people who work very hard in the health service to infer that.

I had the misfortune of spending 3 nights in James's (1 in A+E and 2 in a ward) just over a year ago, the place was spotless and infection control was taken extremely seriously by all the staff (and yes even the food was good.) Sure, not everywhere is up to that standard yet but they are working hard on it. The reason we didn't have uniform standards was the old system of voluntary hospitals under the old health boards, everyone was doing their own thing instead of being forced to follow national best practices, but this is changing.

wex

Heinrich wrote:

Taken from the Irish Times, this lemon is just another failed scheme by an inept government. Will we ever learn? This is not tacking crime.

Can anyone out there convince me otherwise?

Classic, the entire country and if we are to believe the gra, said that this reserve idea could not work becauce the trainees were only getting 24 hours training.
Now were told that "its taking so long to train" the (24 hour) wanna be cops that less than 200 hundred will be fully fledged reservists by the time the election hits us. It would seem to me that apart from the opinions concerning the whys and whynots of the idea. The truth is that the training is much more than originally designed. This can only be a good thing, both from the Guards and Reserve Guards stand point. Indeed is it not better to have 140 people trained to a level where they are of some use to us all, rather than hundreds of lesser trained personel.

Hotblack Desiato

Spot on Wex.

This thread is just another example imho about how the opposition and media love to whinge about anything and everything but, when it comes down to it, FG and Lab are not great about convincing the electorate that they'd do better. Just knocking the govt. at every opportunity (and there are bound to be plenty of opportunities when the same lot have been in power for ten years) isn't good enough to convince the electorate that they'll do better.

lostexpectation

140 how many did they project by election time, and how many signed up, how many did the interview and how many got so far but were not taken on.... or take it up...?

there were trumpting how many people applied, it actually scared me how quickly this thing progress, but putting amateurs in uniforms scares me.

ballooba

ninja900 wrote:

This thread is just another example imho about how the opposition and media love to whinge about anything and everything but, when it comes down to it, FG and Lab are not great about convincing the electorate that they'd do better.

Nice try.

Labour have been calling for more Community Gardai for about 10 years. Under FF/PD their is a recurring theme where Gardai are trained in as community Gardai at considerable expense and are then transferred to another role within months. This is a complete waste of money and does not increase the number of Community Gardai. Pat Rabitte has raised this as a major issue this time around. It is number two of his five "Commitment to Change" policies.

Fine Gael have proposed that the army work with young offenders. Some people think that this is a bit right wing, but I think it is an excellent idea. it should be offered to young people as an alternative to going to a young offenders institution. Prison is a very negative atmosphere.

Serving with the Defence Forces would be a great way to learn new skills, discipline, how to look after yourself and respect. Fine Gael is calling for an expanded role of the Defence Forces including working on projects in disadvantaged areas.

The cycle that could be created here is that the young offenders who want to change will have the option of availing of the military service rather than going into a young offenders institution. They could then be going back into their own areas to run projects to encourage the younger generations to do something positive for themselves. Hopefully this might go some way to intervening in the cycle of crime.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm only giving you my impression as a voter and a member of no party.

Every time I see EK/PR on tv or hear them on the radio they're giving out first and foremost.

Putting young offenders into "boot camp" etc. is just a stupid idea tbh, the Defence Forces aren't part of our law enforcement apparatus and they should not be.

If FG / Lab are worried about training people up to do a job and then moving them and wasting the time/effort taken to train them, they should get off the fence and say they will scrap decentralisation. That's a much bigger issue financially than a few community gardai.

ballooba

ninja900 wrote:

Every time I see EK/PR on tv or hear them on the radio they're giving out first and foremost.

They're p1ssed off. Just as I am with the current government. Any time you try to have a constructive debate with a FFer they will start reaming off meaningless statistics at you.

Also the media does not give much coverage to alternative policies. Fine Gael, Labour and Greens have plenty of good policies. You don't really get to see the positive things Rabbitte and Kenny say.

ninja900 wrote:

Putting young offenders into "boot camp" etc. is just a stupid idea tbh, the Defence Forces aren't part of our law enforcement apparatus and they should not be.

They're not proposing that the Defence Forces get involved in Law Enforcement in any shape or form. That is the job of the Gardai.

You're not giving any reasons as to why you think that this is a bad idea. Other than of course that it would mean change.

They're is no reason why the Defence Forces should not be involved in the rehabilitation of young offenders. Keeping young people locked up is a waste of money. It's obviously not having any effect in breaking the cycle of crime either as these young people continue to re-offend.

wex

lostexpectation wrote:

140 how many did they project by election time, and how many signed up, how many did the interview and how many got so far but were not taken on.... or take it up...?

there were trumpting how many people applied, it actually scared me how quickly this thing progress, but putting amateurs in uniforms scares me.

Look, I agree that you cannot put people into a uniform and dropkick them into the depths of crime ridden Ireland, but if you train anybody to a degree & what they are being asked to do falls within the same set of goal posts, then why is it such a problem. I have a good friend who was on the original pilot scheme, and she is getting on fine.
I watched a thread develop one night, and a guy asked a few questions about joining and had anyone heard how the initial few were getting on, and before I had a chance to say that in my mates case all was well, this guy was shot to pieces just because he showed an interest in joining.

ballooba

wex wrote:

Look, I agree that you cannot put people into a uniform and dropkick them into the depths of crime ridden Ireland, but if you train anybody to a degree & what they are being asked to do falls within the same set of goal posts, then why is it such a problem.

The article did not criticise the concept, just the execution.

Zambia

Do these reserve garda get like paid ?

Plus the army is a career choice for dedicated folk not criminals who want to be kicked into shape.

ballooba

Zambia232 wrote:

Do these reserve garda get like paid ?

No.

Zambia232 wrote:

Plus the army is a career choice for dedicated folk not criminals who want to be kicked into shape.

They're not suggesting these kids be made soldiers. I presume people with convictions cannot join the Defence Forces?

It sounds a bit cold calling kids criminals. I know there are some of these kids that have done terrible things like the killing of Gda. Anthony Tighe and Gda. Michael Padden. They are still kids though.

Tea drinker

They wont get paid but they will get some "pocket money" From the justice site:
While no salary will payable to Reserve members, the Garda Commissioner has proposed the following payments:
"Payments for appearance at Courts: Witness expenses will be paid for attendance at Court outside working hours. It is anticipated that the procedures that apply for the payment of civilian wi tness expenses in DPP cases will similarly apply for members of the Garda Reserve. In any other cases, provision will be made in the Garda Budget.
Payment of allowance: A modest annual allowance, covering travelling and miscellaneous expenses will be paid as this is the most appropriate and efficient way to reimburse Garda Reserve members for expenses incurred. The amount to be determined."

And anyway, why is it still called the dept of Justice? What has that whole system got to do with Justice IMHO? Should it not be called the Dept. of Legal affairs?

Tea drinker

ninja900 wrote:

Putting young offenders into "boot camp" etc. is just a stupid idea tbh, the Defence Forces aren't part of our law enforcement apparatus and they should not be.

I agree with you. But that's not to say, in the absence of a better system, it might just help.
Of course they might sue the ass off the army.. oh you hurt me! I'm traumatised! Of course the Army guys won't hear them anyway! What!
Bit like the old workhouses?
It would help the cops a great deal if the guys who cannot function in society are removed from same.
The legal syatem has for too long stepped on the rights of law abiding citizens in favour of relasing serial criminals.
Cheaper prisons is the way... not paying 15 million or so for a few acres...... the idiots.

ballooba

Tea drinker wrote:

I agree with you. But that's not to say, in the absence of a better system, it might just help.
Of course they might sue the ass off the army.. oh you hurt me! I'm traumatised! Of course the Army guys won't hear them anyway! What!
Bit like the old workhouses?
It would help the cops a great deal if the guys who cannot function in society are removed from same.
The legal syatem has for too long stepped on the rights of law abiding citizens in favour of relasing serial criminals.
Cheaper prisons is the way... not paying 15 million or so for a few acres...... the idiots.

Is English your first language? Just wondering.

oscarBravo

ballooba wrote:

Is English your first language? Just wondering.

Don't, thanks.

Zambia

Tea drinker wrote:

"Payments for appearance at Courts: Witness expenses will be paid for attendance at Court outside working hours.

So what your saying is these guys only get paid if they either a arrest someone , or see some crime..

Really that is an actual system ?? This surely has to be changed..

So if i become a reserve garda get lamped on the head and am off sick from my paying job.

Does the goverment pay my wages for that period?

Granted lots of people would like to become Gardai , but making them do it for free is plain mean ..