What makes a good future-proof machine?

SwampThing

It's SSIA time and I've been browsing around looking at components to build a fairly high-spec machine. Basically, I'm going to get one crack at this, money-wise, so I'd like to choose a platform that's gonna last and will support decent expansion/upgrading in the future.

So, what I'm thinking is that the key component here is the motherboard. If I get that wrong, I'm tied to whatever components it supports, which may bugger up the plan.

My 'research' (too many hours of work time spent surfing) has revealed some Asus motherboards that I'm interested in. There is the Commando - support for quad core processors, a couple of PCI-E 16 slots, SATA RAID etc. What interests me is the quad core support - I think this will give me more flexibility in the future as quad core becomes more prevalent.

A couple of reviews give it the thumbs up and point to it's slightly lesser sibling, the Striker Extreme as a solid candidate also. The only major difference I see is the chipset; am I right? The general consensus seems to be that the Intel chipset on the Commando is a little more stable.

My thinking is this: get the Commando or Striker mobo, a 6600 processor, 2GB of RAM, a 7900 GT (I do play games, but I'm not too hung up on graphics performance) and maybe a second 7900 later, if needed. That gives me the opportunity to upgrade to a quad core when they don't cost a kidney.

OR.....

Do I look at dual socket dual core mobos? They're thin on the ground and I'm a bit iffy about the future scalability.

So, what do you folks in the know think? What's the likelihood of building a machine now that will still turn heads in, say, three years time?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

8T8

Don't bother with dual socket mobo's they are a niche that will remain so because of quad core CPU's.

I'd go pretty much with what you have picked get the Commando and swap the 7900GT for an X1950 Pro as you can use those in Crossfire mode later on Intel chipsets.

Not much point in getting the Asus Striker 680 unless you want SLI support.

SwampThing

Ok, I'm about to confirm my ignorance when it comes to new graphics technology. The difference between Crossfire and SLI - is Crossfire not ATI proprietary, therefore locking me into ATI hardware? Does SLI not give me more scope for the future? And the icing on the ignorance cake - what's the difference between SLI & Crossfire?

L31mr0d

woah there horsey...

the future is DX10. So if you are planning on future proofing your machine then you need to get a DX10 graphics card.

What kind of time frame are you looking at until the SSIA matures and how badly do you need this new PC. I'd personally wait until a few more DX10 cards get realeased pushing the prices down. It would be better to get a low end DX10 card than a high end DX9 card.

8T8

Both are proprietary SLI only works with NVIDIA motherboards & GPU's.

Crossfire works only with ATI GPU's but works on AMD/ATI & Intel motherboards.

So not much point in getting uber expensive nForce 680 board if your not that into 3D tech/games to begin with as it's major selling point is SLI support (something NVIDIA will never let go of because why buy an NV chipset if you can get Intel with SLI support).

The technology is similar enough in how it works but locked into each vendors own eco system though now that ATI are part of AMD and no longer making ATI Intel chipsets they have opened up Crossfire support on Intel chipsets specifically the 965 & 975 series plus future ones to come no doubt.

I think you will be pleased enough with an X1950 Pro it is a good value/performance GPU & if the need arises (I cant see it if not a gamer) they can be paired in Crossfire all you need is another X1950 Pro and plug in a cable just like SLI.

If your not a big gamer not much point in getting DX10 GPU mid range parts are 2-3 months away from NVIDIA and DX9 titles will still be the dominant API for some time to come. Still if future proofing is what matters most to you then you are better off waiting or get a very cheap GPU like €50-60 to tide you over until less expensive DX10 parts become available on the market.

SwampThing

I was planning on ordering the kit at the end of March/early April.

DX 10 you say; where does that fit into the whole SLI / Crossfire thingy-ma-jig?

8T8

Well if that's the case by April NVIDIA should have some cheaper Direct-X 10 class hardware on the market so hold off on that area for the time being.

ATI are launching their DX10 GPU's around the same time frame however they will be high end expensive models only.

DX10 doesn't factor into SLI or Crossfire those systems are just a means of dividing the rendering load onto multiple GPU's. DX10 is supported by those systems just like DX9 or OpenGL are.

It basically boils down to this if you want SLI support you need an NVIDIA motherboard.

If you want Crossfire support you need an AMD/ATI motherboard or an Intel motherboard.

If your not that big on games it doesn't matter what you get you'll probably be happy with the performance of a good mid-range GPU & by the time you feel the need to upgrade it would end up more cost effective and be faster simply buying a single more powerful GPU.

SwampThing

OK 8T8, that makes it a bit clearer. Given that the Commando mobo would be my first choice then, ATI and Crossfire is my route.

When i say I'm not a gamer - I don't need to be dragged out of the office at 4 in the morning, screaming 'just ten more minutes, please!!!'
I do play a bit of CoD2, HL2, MoH - that type of thing. I suppose, what I was trying to say is that I don't pursue that last 3 frames per second like a man possesed.

As for DX10 - I suppose in the greater scheme of things, if I have to get a half-decent DX9 card now (max €150, yeah?) - it'll probably do me for now.

My main aim here is a system that can support me for a while to come. I don't mind the occasional 'splash-out' on some goodies, so if in six months time I want/need a DX10 card, I can do that and if needed, add another later on.

8T8

SwampThing wrote:

OK 8T8, that makes it a bit clearer. Given that the Commando mobo would be my first choice then, ATI and Crossfire is my route.

When i say I'm not a gamer - I don't need to be dragged out of the office at 4 in the morning, screaming 'just ten more minutes, please!!!'
I do play a bit of CoD2, HL2, MoH - that type of thing. I suppose, what I was trying to say is that I don't pursue that last 3 frames per second like a man possesed.

As for DX10 - I suppose in the greater scheme of things, if I have to get a half-decent DX9 card now (max €150, yeah?) - it'll probably do me for now.

My main aim here is a system that can support me for a while to come. I don't mind the occasional 'splash-out' on some goodies, so if in six months time I want/need a DX10 card, I can do that and if needed, add another later on.

You see DX10 is still very much in it's infancy it is going to be a long time before DX10 takes a hold over the market so if you are not really pushed about all the bells and whistles then waiting for DX10 doesn't make too much sense. I'd go out on a limb & say whatever mid-range DX10 parts NVIDIA cook up will probably end up as fast as some of the current entry level high end parts like the X1950 Pro.

An X1950 Pro will serve you well for all the games you mentioned and allow you to crank up the details with AA enabled as well which is why I suggested it as it is a very good price/performer.

Anyway given the time frames involved by the time you go to buy you will see if NVIDIA's cheap DX10 parts will be worth it, if it's the same performance as an X1950 Pro & costs the same then get it if it's slower & the X1950 Pro is cheaper I'd go with the X1950 Pro.

SwampThing

Makes sense.

While I'm on - I've an OCZ 520W Modstream PSU - unopened. Is that good enough for a build like this or am I off out for a new PSU as well?

Finally, memory. I see PC9200, PC8888, PC8000 etc. etc. - What would you recommend for this build?


Thanks.

plonk

Pc6400 and also that psu should be fine

SwampThing

Any reason why not 'faster' RAM plonk? I ask because I'd like to understand the reason.

Should I not be looking at, say, 2GB of decent RAM now and add another 2GB later, if needed?

plonk

The thing about memory is that once you get to a certain point it makes very little difference and for the cost to performance ratio it just doesnt make sense. 2gb of pc6400 is plenty and as you said you can add more later

SwampThing

8T8 wrote:

Don't bother with dual socket mobo's they are a niche that will remain so because of quad core CPU's.

8T8, when you say the dual socket boards are a niche - what's the general consensus on these? Are they worth the extra money?
I ask because my undertsanding is that a dual core processor gives about 65%-75% the performance of two single cores at the minute. If this holds true for dual core vs. quad core, would 2 x dual cores not out-perform a single socket quad core?

plonk

The thing about quad core is that programs cant use it. Dual core is still being perfected and imo is the better option. Most 965 and 975 boards are quad core compatable so I wouldnt go for anything else and youll be able more than likely to stick a quad core cpu in it in the future.

Quad core will be getting bigger and bigger over the next few years but unless you are doing serious video editing i wouldnt go near it


Edit: Also what youre saying about the dual cpu mobos, these are used for servers and very few home pcs have these, it would just be overkill and a waste of money

SwampThing

Thanks plonk, but that doesn't really answer my question.

While I'm at it, how does the Asus Commando stack up against the Abit board here... http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=329724&view=detailed

Thanks again.

8T8

Dual socket boards will allow you to use more than one physical CPU regardless if the CPU is single, dual or quad core.

They are expensive to produce & used only in workstation/professional/server markets. AMD & recently Intel did introduce a PC enthusiast's dual socket system but they are both of dubious value.

In order for software to benefit it must be multi-threaded otherwise it will never use the second CPU/core. Most software is not multi-threaded though it is getting better however not all software needs to be multi-threaded either because there may be no benefit.

As for two physical dual core CPU's vs a single quad core CPU the quad will win in most tests as the interconnects between the two CPU's will have a higher latency than the on-die interconnect of the quad core CPU in situations where the software is multi-threaded.

There where some recent benchmarks done on this very topic but the site that did them eludes me. A single quad core CPU is overkill for most home users it will be years before general software is on that level of multi-threaded optimization unless you work with specific software that already is like Photoshop or certain video encoders.

The Abit board is an nForce 6 motherboard so unless you need SLI support or something specific on that motherboard the cheaper Asus commando does the job for what you outlined.

Richard Dower

The only future proof PC is one whereby you constantly change out parts as they appear on the market, that way you keep current.

Kinda like mine.

Frank Grimes Jr

First step to building a future proofed PC is to get yourself a time travelling DeLorean.
No such thing mate, PC's or the DeLorean. Intel's next CPU code Penryn chips are going to be shrunk Core2Duo/Quads which your mobo, may or may not support in the future and after that, you are looking at the next generation of CPUs with a new socket type - new mobo. By which time your RAM will have to be DDR3 and PCI-E will be 2.0. Software when it comes is going to be multi threaded not dual threaded, so having four cores will be nice - but completely unnecessary for the next 12 months. You'll face the same issues with an AMD build.

Regarding graphics cards there are no DX10 cards on the market, specifically the Nvidia 8800 series. To be avoided. They are the best DX9 card tho'.

wingnut32

swamp im letting go of a fairly decent machine..check it out over on adverts and see what you think

SwampThing

Thanks for the feedback lads.

I know it's impossible to get something to last forever. What I'm trying to avoid is what I have now - a decent machine at the time but way outdated now and not capable of much further expansion - at least not in the right direction anyway. It's single core, AGP, memory banks full, limited SATA and RAID.

My thinking is begin with a really really good board that'll take quad core when I go that way; capable of SLI or Crossfire if I want to go that way; start with 2GB of RAM and leave two slots free for expansion; decent RAID and SATA options.

I hear what you're saying Mr. Grimes, but I think there'll be quad core chips for a while to come that'll be compatible with this motherboard. They're relatively new now and won't become main stream for a while yet. I think I can get a couple, if not three years outta this - that's the plan.

Thanks again to all who replied - I'm happier now that I'm not going up the garden path and I've learned a thing or two on the way. Cheers!

DanGerMus

Well having recently built a new system i have this one piece of advice. Look up^^^^^. i repeat future proofing isnt possible. Only things that you could even think about lasting past 18 months in terms of performance is your monitor. Cos as it is they're pretty much gone into the realms of being beyond human perception, i'm referring to refresh rate and the like. your eyes can only percieve certain amount of colour certain frame rates and soo on. and even mid range monitors produce pictures better than your eyes will ever know. pick a nice big pretty one, for gaming at least 19" not widescreen, will last you forever. Then pick a case just find one you like the look of and go yup i like it and order it dont read up an specs and sales jargon unless they refer to build quality and ease of use. Thermal solutions and speccial noise reducing baffle plates and spoilers it's all poop designed to get your money.
Now for the bits inside 1000-1500 hundred will buy you a CLASS pc anything more is over kill and your performance to Euro ratio will drop severely. i have an x1950 pro they'll do your job grand cos DX10 wont be fully rolled out and used for probably a year (this comment is open to argument) by which time the cards will be cheaper. SLI/corssfire is for severe enthusiasts and buying purpose built Motherboards is a waist unless you're buying 2 cards right now. Just dont even think about SLI unless your running games on a 32" HD screen or just trying to push frame rates up for the sake of it. Buy a decent card now and when you feel it's not doin it for you buy a replacement cos the way technology goes SLI'ing old cards isnt economical for the same money one new card will way outperform.
I'd recommend a decent intel P965 board paired with an E6600 or E6700, 2GB ddr2 pc6400 , segate barracuda 320GB (or 2), look into Raptors for your OS and apps.(or RAID) and for the GPU an x1950 pro will do you fine but if you want to go crazy buy a Geforce8800 GTS. all this will be well within a total budget of 2000 especially since you have a PSU that will do you fine. Again SLI is for enthusiasts only i considered it myself on my build and came to the decision that for the general gamer/user its a waist of money. God i'll take some flak for that one.

Saruman

Exactly HappyGandalf. I should have my 2 new rigs on monday from Ankermann. My own one will be a 6600 with 2gb corsair XMS 800mhz ram and the main thing is an 8800GTS which like you said may be overkill since DX10 is not out yet but still.... it will be better than an x1950, in fact maybe even better than 2 of them in crossfire It should last me a while and the 6600 is great for overclocking when i see i need more speed in the future so i got a good motherboard that is good for overclocking.

the other PC will be grand too but using a 7900GS instead for my wife who will probably never play anything that will use the power except NWN2 on high res.

SwampThing

Saruman wrote:

the other PC will be grand too but using a 7900GS instead for my wife who will probably never play anything that will use the power except NWN2 on high res.

NWN2 - is this the new Needlework With Nora II - wow, I've heard it fantabulous!

Saruman

Yes the graphics are amazing! You have never seen needlework in such high rendering before.