Westies

20LEgend

Hi,

My girlfriend got a male puppy Westie 2 weeks ago (he's 13 weeks old). I'm just looking for some info on the dogs from fellow Westie owners.

One thing is that he is quite snappy. Now he doesn't bite as such its more when you go to pet him he turns his head and has a go at your fingers or if your playing with him. The question i'm asking is will he grow out of this (is it teething problems?)

Thanks

peasant

All puppies bite ...it's similar to human babies sticking everything into their mouth ...plus he has no hands to explore things with.

You have to teach him, that you don't want this. If he goes for your fiingers, pull them away and tell him "NO!". If he does get you, let out an exaggerated cry of pain (the higher pitched the better:D ) ...he has to learn that human skin is very delicate and that he can' "play rough" with you.

It'll sink in after a while.

Teething problems will come later, have a good rubber (not plastic!) chew toy ready for that.

melekalikimaka

as they get older they are know for bad skin conditions and dodgy tummies. lovely pets, cute til the day they pass

20LEgend

I think its just excitment from him when he does it.
He puts the ears down and wags his tail when he does it and will lick your hand rather than chew it if you shout "NO" to him.

He's a live wire but i'd rather a dog with a bit of personality.

Thanks for the replies

Skittle

Hi 20LEgend

Over the past 20 years I've owned two Westies. The first guy we had for nearly 15 years and was tragically run over. He was a real dote and a member of the family and was sorely missed. He was ideal, well mannered and didn't stray very far from our home when he was let out.

The second guy, was a nightmare, and we had him for 5 years. We recently had to give him to the pound as he bit my mother for the last time. He bit all of us badly at some stage. I'm not talking about a little nip, I'm talking about a full scale "sink-the teeth in" type of bites. He was an alpha-male, and we should have seen it coming when he started nipping us when he was young. Also he wouldn't roll-over on his back, which was another sign of a dominant, alpha-male dog.

As some of the posters mentioned nipping your fingers can be a combination of teething and playing. The "yelping" method described above works, so does immediately standing up from the dog and turning your back from him. Puppies hate being given the cold shoulder and see it as a sign that you are not happy with them and they'll get the message.

Westies are in general brilliant. They're bright, very inquisitive, and have a great impish/mischievous look about them. They will roam when let out so be careful. They love holes and will investigate them thoroughly! I remember one time we had a floorboard up in our house and our first Westie thought this was great and went exploring under the house! We couldn't get him up for ages, only for the fact that he got hungry and we lured him back to the hole with a sausage, he be still down there today:D

Enjoy your new pup, treat and train him right and you'll have a friend for life...

RosieJoe

Hi 20LEgend,

I have 2 Westie bitches at home and they are great little dogs. Great little characters.

The biting thing is just a phase, just continue with how you are dealing with it and all will be fine.

As for the skin problems, it is common for them to suffer with it but not all dogs will. My 2 are 8 and 5 and have never had an issue with it.

Best of luck and enjoy!

fits

Skittle wrote:

Hi 20LEgend
....and didn't stray very far from our home when he was let out.

How very good of him...:rolleyes:

Skittle wrote:

We recently had to give him to the pound as he bit my mother for the last time. He bit all of us badly at some stage. I'm not talking about a little nip, I'm talking about a full scale "sink-the teeth in" type of bites. He was an alpha-male, and we should have seen it coming when he started nipping us when he was young. Also he wouldn't roll-over on his back, which was another sign of a dominant, alpha-male dog.

I'm not going to presume you exhausted all avenues of training before getting the pound to do your dirty work for you.:mad: That dominant alpha -male stuff is balderdash in this instance. Your fault, not the dogs...

20LEgend

Thanks for the replies...

He only has two speeds, on and off. He is always running around looking to chew something!

If its a phase he's going through with the nipping then its ok, just wouldn't want it developing in to a bigger problem in the future.

peasant

20LEgend wrote:

If its a phase he's going through with the nipping then its ok, just wouldn't want it developing in to a bigger problem in the future.

It is a phase, but that doesn't mean it'll go away all by itself. Teach and train your dog as as mentioned above, so you wont end up "having to give it to the pound" :mad: one day.

RosieJoe

I'd agree with Peasant. Don't make a game of him biting you. If you do he will turn into a right little nipper.

If he bites, just stop playing with him. He will learn that it is not the right thing to do. No need to hit him over it!

SuzyS1972

You know I am fast loosing pateince with people and their dogs in general
Why do people think it's grand to get a dog - administer no training
Don't bother going to classes to formally train a dog and don't bother equipping themselves with any knowledge at all.
Think it's ok to let a dog out on his own as he doesn't go very far.

Jesus no wonder in excess of 18,000 dogs were put to sleep in pounds last year not to mention the ones handed into vets we have no figures for.

I am not even going to begin to comment on the Alpha male rubbish and not rolling over on his back.
I am assuming that a vet was consulted to see the dog had no medical problems causing the agression - was he neutered if you felt he was so dominent
Somehow I doubt it - sure it's easier to condemn the dog to dog than to be reponsible for having to deal with the fact that YOU didn't bother discouraging the behaviour from an early age or to bother your arse rectifying it once you saw it was a problem

20LEgend

Thanks for the advice.

My girlfriend adopts the strategies as you guys have pointed out (shouting no when he nips or a tap across the nose).

Just wanted some pointers from people who have gone through the same process the their westies.

Going Demented

I have a westie and i have got to say she is a right character. Like yours she used to bite at our fingers when we were playing with her. We used over exxagerate the OUCH'S and stop playing. She soon stopped it and doesn't do it anymore. My brothers and sisters grandkids play with her and they can be rough! (They too are gradually learning) She is great with them. (She is however very possessive of her toys). She would nearly talk to you. Have had all different types of dogs throughout the years and i've got to say she is one of the most loveable. Very mischievous and nosey but clever out. Found her very easy to train. Keep doing what you're doing and i'm sure yours will grow out of the nipping as well.

fits

SuzyS1972 wrote:

You know I am fast loosing pateince with people and their dogs in general

You're only 'losing' it? I dont understand how people like yourself that are actively involved in rescue cope at all.

peasant

Thanks for the advice.

My girlfriend adopts the strategies as you guys have pointed out (shouting no when he nips or a tap across the nose).

Just wanted some pointers from people who have gone through the same process the their westies

Don't hit him on the nose !

Not just because you may hurt him, but mainly because he'll see it as part of the "game" and just try and bite you harder/better/quicker the next time

Tell him "no" once and if that doesn't help, just withdraw any and all attention from him, turn away from him and ignore him completely (and that means not even peeping at him from the corner of your eye )

This is the quickest and best way to teach him ..just be consistent and do it all the time (and every time) he starts biting and he'll have it copped within a few days.


EDIT
Two more remarks:
There is no need to shout! It is the tone of voice rather than the volume that is important. Really good "doggie people" control their animals quietly but so much more effectively than the shouting and screaming majority of dog owners.

Don't get too hung up on the fact that he's a "Westi" ...he's a dog like any other dog, no major behavioral differences there. It is ok to accept advice from non-Westie owners

Skittle

In reply to the comments of fits & SuzyS1972...

Firstly fits, your snide remark about my first Westie not straying very far when "we let him out"

That dog got 3 walks a day, morning, lunchtime and late evening. When I said "let him out" I meant, let him out of our garden onto the street. This either happened because someone left the gate open or he was under supervision. So don't comment on what you don't know ok?

Now the other comments by the both of you about our inability to train the dog and the "Alpha male rubbish". Do you deny that alpha-males exist SuzyS1972, because your comment was a bit vague there.

On not training the dog I agree 100% with you. I didn't want the second dog as I thought it was too soon after the first guy dieing. My parents decided on getting the second Westie.... so don't go jumping down my throat ok!

On the neutering thing, our vet told us that it wouldn't change his behaviour so we were going with what we were told.

Well anyway the second Westie wasn't put down, he's gone to an animal rescue. Meanwhile, again against my advice and express wishes, my parents have taken home a pound dog to look after.

Needless to say I'll crucified here for letting that happen too...:mad:

fits

I dont want this to descend into a slagging match at all. I hope the new dog 'fits in' better with your family, for his own sake as well as anything else. You might want to look into dog training classes. Get him (or her) neutered and dont let him wander the streets. If you do have problems with him, dont blame it on his being an 'alpha male' it doesnt really apply to animals outside of the wild, its you and your parents job to be a good leader to the dog and set clear boundaries from the start.

Which pound did you leave the westie into? It might be a nice gesture on your behalf to make a donation to the rescue involved. I know of the lady running westie rescue in Ireland and she gives a lot of her time and money towards rehoming these dogs. It costs at least a couple of hundred euro between vaccinations, transport and neutering for them to rehome each animal.

RosieJoe

Going Demented wrote:

My brothers and sisters grandkids play with her and they can be rough! (They too are gradually learning) She is great with them.

Have to agree with Demented on this. I have 2 boys now (3 and 8 months) and the 2 dogs get on very well with them. Will always keep an eye on them, but it is nice to see them that they can play without snapping! One thing less for you to worry about in the future 20LEgend

peasant

"Alpha male rubbish". Do you deny that alpha-males exist SuzyS1972, because your comment was a bit vague there.

My name's not Suzy, but please allow me to butt in here ...

In the wild, among wild dogs, there is an "alpha pair". This denominates the breeding pair, and that's about it.
Wild dogs do job sharing and have a highly sophisticated social structure. It is not true that the alpha dog always leads or always eats first, etc ,etc. This very much depends on the situation and circumstances, the alpa dog may well let others lead the hunt / eat first without losing its status or having to become aggressive about the issue.

So the common image of the "alpha dog" as the almighty dictator over all its underlings is wrong ...simple as that.

Subsequently all behavioral theories and training guidelines based on domineering, dictatorial "alpha" behaviour are crap.

And finally, any attempt of a human to become "alpha dog" are condemned to failure because:

-there is no such "alpha dog" as it is commonly understood
- even if there was, a human is no dog and therefore never can be "top dog"
- most importantly, trying to train and control a dog by sheer dominance and brute force (the so called "alpha roll" where you force the dog on its back is the prime example) is wrong, will not achive good results and in case of a strong willed dog will end in desaster.

Skittle

Hi fits,
I'm not sure exactly which pound our Westie was left into as my father did it. Ironically it was the same pound my parents got the new fella from. I think it might be "Ash" something or other. The pound didn't tell us which Rescue they sent the dog too. My parents did make a donation to the Pound when they picked up the new guy.

I'll agree with you about it not being the dogs fault 100%, they are animals after-all, it's the humans who are generally the problem.

peasant

RosieJoe wrote:

.... but it is nice to see them that they can play without snapping! One thing less for you to worry about in the future 20LEgend

That is a very dangerous assumption you're making there.
Just because your "Westie" doesn't snap at children, doesn't automatically mean that all other "Westies" won't either.

We're not comparing washing machines here, where a "Miele" may be better than a "Hotpoint" ,but individuals that can behave very differently even though they are all "Westies"

fits

Skittle wrote:

Hi fits,
I'm not sure exactly which pound our Westie was left into as my father did it. Ironically it was the same pound my parents got the new fella from. I think it might be "Ash" something or other. The pound didn't tell us which Rescue they sent the dog too. My parents did make a donation to the Pound when they picked up the new guy.

I'll agree with you about it not being the dogs fault 100%, they are animals after-all, it's the humans who are generally the problem.

Ash isnt a pound, its an animal rescue organisation.

www.ashanimalrescue.com
They're based near Baltinglass.

Pounds are funded by the County Councils, one wouldnt donate to a pound as they're not a charity, they are run for profit. Most of the pounds in the country put the majority of dogs who end up there to sleep. 100% in Limerick and others. And yes 18,000 dogs were pts in pounds last year and that figure does not include the ones in the vets and the greyhounds..

RosieJoe

peasant wrote:

That is a very dangerous assumption you're making there.
Just because your "Westie" doesn't snap at children, doesn't automatically mean that all other "Westies" won't either.

We're not comparing washing machines here, where a "Miele" may be better than a "Hotpoint" ,but individuals that can behave very differently even though they are all "Westies"

I agree with you on this one, definitely. I am always wary of the dogs and the children together as all it takes is one day for the dogs to snap!

The best thing is to know your own dog, know its behaviour and always keep an eye on them. Better safe than sorry!

Jules

peasant wrote:

And finally, any attempt of a human to become "alpha dog" are condemned to failure because:

-there is no such "alpha dog" as it is commonly understood
- even if there was, a human is no dog and therefore never can be "top dog"
- most importantly, trying to train and control a dog by sheer dominance and brute force (the so called "alpha roll" where you force the dog on its back is the prime example) is wrong, will not achive good results and in case of a strong willed dog will end in desaster.

No such thing as an Alpha Dog, are you a dog behaviour specialist..

there are a lot of people who would tend to disagree with you, maybe a read of this might help.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdog.htm

peasant

jules80 wrote:

No such thing as an Alpha Dog, are you a dog behaviour specialist..

there are a lot of people who would tend to disagree with you, maybe a read of this might help.

Jules

please, no pi**ing matches this time, ok ...

have a read of THIS first, and then come again.

Arcadian

jules80 wrote:

there are a lot of people who would tend to disagree with you, maybe a read of this might help.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdog.htm

I'm sorry but that link is rubbish, when are people going to cop on to the fact that not everything on the internet is true;)

Jules

I have no intention of getting into a pissing contest P. But the way you said it came across as a kind of "im right and everyone else is worng" ish kinda way and all im doing is pointing out that there are different schools of thought on it, and that some people do believe in the Alfa Male status of owners.

And Arcadian, its not just something i've picked up on the internet, as i have said its just a different point of vew.

peasant

jules80 wrote:

But the way you said it came across as a kind of "im right and everyone else is worng" ish kinda way and all im doing is pointing out that there are different schools of thought on it, and that some people do believe in the Alfa Male status of owners.

It has nothing to with whether peasant or Jules 80 is right or wrong, but everything to with what is right for the dogs.

The common garden variety of the "alpha theory" as proclamated in your link has several flaws:

1. dogs are dogs and not wolves ...there is only very limited scope for comparison. And even if there was ...

2. The wolf-pack theory that is branded about everywhere is simply wrong (see my link above) as it was generated watching the behaviour of captive wolves. Wolf "society" in the wild is far, far less aggressive than in captivity, hence all these "dominance" and "aggression" models are just plainly wrong

3. People living together with their dog(s) are not a homogenous "pack" but a mixed group ...therefore "pack rules" cannot apply

So basically, the whole terminology of these theories (pack, wolf, dominance, pecking order, etc) is simply unsuitable to correctly describe a good, working dog - human relationship.
Furthermore, the dominant-aggressive style of leadership is the wrong approach. You do not prove to your dog that you are its natural leader by
- preventing it from going through a door in front of you
- denying yourself from lying next to it
- eating before it does
- winnig every staring contest
- not allowing it on the sofa/bed
as stated in your link.

All these methods do is create conflict and further agression, instead of preventing it.

Dogs are not stupid and they are not machines, nor are they little soldiers that enjoy being commanded about in boot-camp style.

I agree, that in order to enjoy life with your dog, you have to become its "leader" ...but not its "Fuehrer":D

You become an acceptable leader by:
- establishing sensible rules and sticking with them
- being consistent in your decisions
- being predictable in your reactions
- keeping your cool in times of "crisis"
- be realible in providing for your dogs' needs
- and last but not least by showing some degree of trust in your dog(s) and giving them some scope to make their own decisions every now and then.

Very, very simple, really. Stick to this and your dog will be willingly "led" by you.


The only problem is, that we humans have some trouble with being consistent and predictable (and that we have a tendency to blame the dog(s) for our shortcomings )

This is where the "old school" of dominant-aggressive top-dogism has its appeal. No matter how flawed you are as a leader, as long as you aggressively keep your dog "down" you'll be alright. Just shout at it long and loud enough and you'll regain control, failing that, stare it down, failing that, throw it on its back ....and if that doesn't work, your dog is fit to be labelled as "over agrressive" or "dominant" and you can walk away blame free.

No wonder this, as you so nicely called it, "different point of view" has such a long shelf life.

Jules

Can you open your mind to anyone else point of view. I can see where you are coming from P, but I would hope that you are not so close minded to see that all dogs are different and that different types of training work differently on them.

And i never condon violence or shouting at any pet, but some of the theories on alpha status in relation to owners and dogs are used a lot in training. Yes link i found was just an example, yes granted maybe not the best but some of the points in it are used a lot.

You say that..

You become an acceptable leader by:
- establishing sensible rules and sticking with them
- being consistent in your decisions
- being predictable in your reactions
- keeping your cool in times of "crisis"
- be realible in providing for your dogs' needs
- and last but not least by showing some degree of trust in your dog(s) and giving them some scope to make their own decisions every now and then.

I think we are both coming from the same place, but i don't know maybe it is just the term Alpa Dog/Leader you are not comfortable with. Everything you have said above is what an Alpha/pack leader would do, if you look at it from a doggie point of view.


And where has the domestic dog evolved from, if not a wolf. The are all members of canid family (family Canidæ) Fossil and genetic evidence confirms that all dogs are the descendants of wolves. In fact, skeletons of the earliest dogs and their wild wolf cousins can be tough to tell apart.

But please just don't dismiss oe rubbish other peoples view just because you don't agree with them.

cotton

I'm certainly not going to get into a slanging match with people I don't know, but to everyone that believes in the alpha male/dominance school of thinking, have a read of this book, Barry Eaton's Dominance, fact or fiction.

http://www.dog-games.co.uk/newshop/product/Dominance+-+Fact+or+Fiction+by+Barry+Eaton.htm

20ELegend, all pups, not just westie pups go through this stage! One of our lot was particulary bad as a pup. We found a big sad "ooowww" worked for us.

Schlemm

Personally I believe in the linear hierarchy situation for domestic and wild dogs....but regardless of which school of thought you subscribe to, you have to establish yourself as dominant and your dogs as the subordinate or you will have problems with dominance agression. You must also respect the hierarcheal orginisation of your dogs if you have more than one dog or there will be fights and aggression between the dogs. There is nothing worse than owning a bossy and potentially dangerous dog, so make sure that they know their place, regardless of your beliefs.