Westies

peasant

Schlemm

We have three dogs at home, that live and sleep in the house and run around in the large garden, weather permitting.

Our dogs have permanent access to food, we just top it up every evening.
No dog of ours gets preferential treatment and we certainly don't stick to a hirarchy. Whoever is there first, get's what's going (treat, play, etc) first ...unless that dog bullied its way to the front of the line, in that case it gets served last.
We play with our dogs on the floor, sometimes we even lie down next to them.
They are allowed on the sofa and bed (if invited) and they leave when told to do so.
They settle their own differences, but we intervene when it gets to loud/aggressive and the aggressor is removed from the scene (different room)
On many occassions during play or cuddles was there a dog on top of a human ...but only when said human was ok with that.

But we still have a strict set of rules that have to be followed:
- no bullying, - no begging, - no stealing of food or toys, - no access to certain areas, -no chasing of the house cats ..etc etc
We also have a set of "commands" that are rigidly enforced every time:
- "here", - "leave it", -"wait", -"get back".

So, while we have strict rules and my wife and me are unquestionably the "leaders", we achieve this without supressing our dogs and without establishing a hirarchy between them.

The most severe and effective "punishment" we mete out is removal from the group. Whosoever disobeys the rules is sent away and can cool down outside on their own or in the next room. We hardly ever need to do this, usually a verbal warning is enough.

There certainly is no need for staring contests, shaking at the neck, or forcing the animal on its back or any other aggressive behaviour on our behalf.

In short, we lead with authority, but not with aggression.



The main problem with aggressive leadership is that it is not understood by the dogs. Dogs are highly socially adaptive. They want to live in a group and they have all sorts of inbred aggression avoidance mechanisms in their behaviour. Aggression between the members of a group is counterproductive and takes up too many resources and is therefore avoided as much as possible.

Imagine a group of wild dogs ...if all they ever did all day was to fight over rank and postion, they'd simply starve. Plus any injury from infighting would seriously hamper their success in hunting. So they don't fight, instead they have rules and behaviour within the group that avoids conflict.

If you lead your dog(s) at home through aggression only you either get totally submissive dogs who are afraid to "be themselves" and thus never reach their full potential ...or ...in the case of a strong willed, self assured dog ...you have a revolution on your hands.

Too much (and unwarranted) aggression is actually seen by a dog as a sign of weakness ...a strong dog will challenge you and most likely win.

Schlemm

I never said that you have to surpress your dog into submission,- of course, beating a dog down is extremely detrimental. If you force a dog into submission it will either make them more aggressive or a complete wimp.....in the US they use a technique when training police dogs called 'alpha rolling of dogs' where they roll the pups over to show that you are dominant over them (in the wild, subordinate dogs voluntarily roll over when they meet a more dominant pack member). Visual cues are important for conferring dominance in a pack, and when your dog is a pup you should try and spend time playing with it when it is on its back (to show that you are dominant) rather than forcing it over. It's not hard to show your dog or dogs who the boss is - simple things like eating before they eat and such is all that is needed.

Pack mentality is definitelty real: otherwise you wouldn't have to establish yourself as the alpha! Opinions vary with regards to how to keep the peace in a household where there are more than 1 or 2 dogs. Some, although not all, believe that the dominant dogs should have access to resources and be handled before the subordinate dogs. I have heard of cases where people have not respected the hierarchy in their dogs (eg, by feeling sorry for the underdog and feeding them first and giving them more attention, etc.). This can lead to aggression towards the underdog from the higher pack members, thereby putting the underdog in danger, particularly if the dogs are not very well disciplined. If you live in a household with many dogs and you lavish too much attention on the underdog, you may find that the other dogs will pick on that dog. If this is becoming a problem, one of the best ways of dealing with it is to respect the hierarchy and give the dominant dogs attention first. If you have dogs and they have established a hierarchy, you've got to respect it (provided it isn't causing problems, such as aggression towards neighbouring dogs or yourselves) or you'll have trouble: the pack mentality is hardwired into their instincts and is a very powerful tool for motivating their behavior.

peasant

Problem is though, that the hirarchy between the dogs at home is not always clear cut ...at least not with our dogs.

We have one dog at home, who likes to keep herself to herself, is very quiet and likes to keep out of trouble by usually letting the other two get "the better of her".
Until the point where there is a row between the other two ...then she steps in with force and quickly establishes peace and quiet again.
But when it comes to walkies and play, she clearly orientates herself on one of the other dogs (the old senior male) while calmly bearing the cheeky antics of the other, younger female.

The older male has clear leadership when it comes to the "duty" of "defending " the property and accepts no challenge to this, "his job" ...but he happily lets the others eat from his bowl (even before he does) and has no problem with them walking all over him during play.

The cheeky young one is the one to point out interesting scents and gets grumpy when one of the others interferes with her "tracking duty" other than that she's the clown of the bunch and "animation director" in our little circus, constantly engaging the other two in play and silly antics.

So which one of the three ranks highest among the dogs?
You tell me ...


We have long since given up on thinking of our dogs as numbers one, two and three. The only hirarchy that counts and is striclty enforced is that "what we say goes" ...That's it.

If you want to call us the "alphas" because of this ...fine. I'd rather call myself "boss" or "leader" in this context ...not least because of all the wrong connections that the word "alpha" makes in some peoples heads.


EDIT
The biggest danger in treating your dogs according to "pack hirarchy" is that you get it wrong!
If you support or punish the wrong dog, you will loose all credibility as a leader and you will have a revolution on your hands before you know it.

Even if there was such a thing as "pack mentality" among a random group of dogs (which I doubt) ...most of us are utterly incapable of reading all the signs correctly and to clearly establish who is "top dog" at any point in time.
My recommendation is to leave the dogs to sort themselves out and only step in, once the established "group rules" are transgressed.
Make your first group rule "there has to be peace at all times", enforce it and you're flying ...

It's a lot easier to do than trying to work along a hirarchy that isn't clearcut in most cases and that you might not have properly understood anyway.

Livvie

Westies are lovely dogs.

I would think the biting thing is just a phase - a puppy thing. They're generally very placid and friendly dogs.

Mine has bad skin problems, but people on here gave me some good advice, and she's improved a lot. If you are unlucky with yours in that respect, then it could cost you a lot in vets fees.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't give a Westie tinned dog food. I feed mine fresh white meat, occasionally tuna, and a complete mix, called James Wellbeloved.

fits

peasant wrote:

Furthermore, the dominant-aggressive style of leadership is the wrong approach. You do not prove to your dog that you are its natural leader by
- preventing it from going through a door in front of you
- denying yourself from lying next to it
- eating before it does
- winnig every staring contest
- not allowing it on the sofa/bed
as stated in your link.

What a load of tripe... I couldnt possibly win a staring contest with my Buster, he stares me out of it all the time!

I dont believe in the linear hierarchy theory at all in domesticated dogs..

Goffie

Oh people calm down, the OP only asked a simple question! And didnt ask for a slanging match over everyone's theories.

I have a brilliant Westies who's 17 months old and I've been thru the puppy stage as a first time owner and did my best with the help of loads of advice from sensible experienced dog owners.

He's no saint, but my fella is a delight and a work in progress:D Pretty obedient and really intelligent. Loves training and picks up things quickly. Would eat for Ireland lol.

If you have any other questions, not being an expert by any manner of means, but your're welcome to PM me and we can swop stories and hopefully solutions.

Very lovable dogs, and may I add that it's usually the owner's fault if the dog had to be pts - bar physical problems.

Westies rule! And they love themselves too, rightly so;)
Best of luck
Goffie