Garda with attitude

Luckycharm

Got pulled over yesterday morning on my way into work and honestly have no idea what I was pulled over for!! Drive a scooter to work to avoid the traffic. COme up to junction passing slowly static traffic on outside not inside and pull in front of Garda car beside another bike waiting for the lights to change.
30 Seconds later lights change sirens go off telling me to pull in. Lady garda gets out has a bit of a scream at passing motorcyclist. Then pulls out her notebook saying I am going to get a fine and 2 penalty points. I go I did nothing wrong

She says I passed on a continous white line the traffic which was standing still at the time. At this junction there is a filter for cars going right no car was in it at the time so there was a broken white line. Took pictures
Anyway continue protestations she starts to get more thick ringing in my reg etc,I say this is bull**** she of course jumps on that and starts trying to say I did not have the right license- yes I do!! I have a feeling the wench is going to try and persue this.

Went and took photos with my phone of the area as evidence as I am still baffled why I got pulled over. Using bus lanes, bike lanes etc fair enough but in this instance I had done nothing wrong!! Given I have done the same thing probally a 1000 times before often when Garda standing on corner or garda bike beside me I am baffled.
If i get a fine I am going to fight it as don't have any penalty points!! Going to cop shop today with insurance should I query it?

Krusty_Clown

Firstly, are you sure you have the right license? What size is your engine? What type of license do you have?

Secondly, sounds like you may have been in the wrong when you over-took the line of traffic by using the right-turn lane. While the line may not have been broken, the lane is not an over-taking lane.

Sounds like you p***ed them off by over-taking in a lane you shouldn't have been in, and pulling up in front of them (did you park your scooter past the 'do not cross white line' at the traffic lights? That's a two-pointer too, as far as I can recall.

Krusty_Clown

Have a look here: http://www.penaltypoints.ie/the_full_list_of_offences.php
There are a couple of offences they could get you for:

Driver found to be driving carelessly
Dangerous overtaking
Failure to stop a vehicle before stop sign/ stop line (if you did)
Entry by driver into hatched marked area of roadway, e.g. carriageway reduction lane
Crossing continuous white line
Driving without reasonable consideration
Failure to comply with mandatory traffic signs at junctions

Now, I'm not saying you were actually doing any of these things, just suggesting how they might interpret the situation..

Luckycharm

Bike is a 49cc scooter so is covered by my full drivers license. Traffic was going no where no on coming traffic they did not see me till I pulled in front of cop car beside another bike. Was stopped at the white line - same as every other day and every other traffic lights beside lots of other bikes.

It was a Terenure Cross roads see link for picture

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7863/terenurecrossroads6207gm2.png

Same as this but my bike would be more in middle

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1010/terenurecrossroadsfrontef2.png

stipey

Can you drive a moped on a full B license?

Mad Dog

Would the white line she was talking about be back before that lane because if you did cross that they are likely to go after you for it.

My guess this is what you did and you were in the wrong.

bbbbb

stipey wrote:

Can you drive a moped on a full B license?

I thought you had to apply for an A1 license, which you got automatically with a B, however according to this it's slightly different:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/driver-licensing/full_motorcycle_driving_licences_in_ireland

Category Vehicle Minimum age of driver
A Motorcycles with or without sidecar 18
A1 Motorcycles with an engine size of 51-125cc and/or a speed capability of over 45km/h and with a power rating not exceeding 11 kW, and with or without sidecar 16
M* Two-wheeled vehicles with an engine size not exceeding 50 cc and/or a speed capability not more than 45 km/h 16

*If you already hold a full driving licence for Category B (cars) and/or either Category A or A1, you are automatically licensed to drive Category M vehicles.

Steffano2002

Full B covers scooters of less than 50cc AFAIK.

She sounded like a right old fart this one OP! I tell you what you did wrong, you gave her lip. When I get caught, I try to look like a poor frightened kitty (trembling and all as I reach for my license!). This gives them a good feeling of power and it makes them happy for the day! They always let me off with a verbal warning! Even if I did something really bad...

lord lucan

Luckycharm wrote:

Bike is a 49cc scooter so is covered by my full drivers license. Traffic was going no where no on coming traffic they did not see me till I pulled in front of cop car beside another bike. Was stopped at the white line - same as every other day and every other traffic lights beside lots of other bikes.

It was a Terenure Cross roads see link for picture

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7863/terenurecrossroads6207gm2.png

Same as this but my bike would be more in middle

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1010/terenurecrossroadsfrontef2.png

if they done you on your stationary position at the lights then we should all be worried,i know i and most other bikes i see stop beyond the white line,gives you a chance to get the jump on the traffic behind you:eek:

Steffano2002

lord lucan wrote:

if they done you on your stationary position at the lights then we should all be worried,i know i and most other bikes i see stop beyond the white line,gives you a chance to get the jump on the traffic behind you:eek:

I have to admit, I always end up that way at the light...

lord lucan

tbh just for safety its best to start in front of the white line,if you start alongside you're more than likely gonna get cut off esp if you're on a scooter!:eek:

Dr4gul4

I think it would be quite fair to say, you did some thing wrong, usually the gards wont hastle you unless you are really in the wrong.

If i were you i'd take this as an experience and learn ure lesson.

Lesson thats is do not ever over take a garda car when it's "sitting" in traffic.

simple as

Paparazzo

Steffano2002 wrote:

When I get caught, I try to look like a poor frightened kitty (trembling and all as I reach for my license!). This gives them a good feeling of power and it makes them happy for the day!

Brilliant!

But luckycharm, you weren't soo lucky. You should have told her she should be out catching real criminals, then asked her what's her problem is, was having her period? They love that!
She sounds like an asshole that just wanted to "do" someone. She probably just saw you on a scooter and thought you're just a young easy target.

Steffano2002

Paparazzo wrote:

You should have told her she should be out catching real criminals, then asked her what's her problem is, was having her period? They love that!

LMFAO!!!

The Doktor

Paparazzo wrote:

Brilliant!

But luckycharm, you weren't soo lucky. You should have told her she should be out catching real criminals, then asked her what's her problem is, was having her period? They love that!

And dont forget "I pay your wages!".. but leave the period thing till last..

Luckycharm

Well brought the insurance in tonight - asked the cop on charge what I could of done wrong. He said could not comment :mad:
Anyway think if I get a ticket going down one morning with my camera and I am sure I can catch a cop bike in exactly the same position. Also not sure the white line goes all the way across a bit worn out and given I was stopped 30 secs later after taken off from the lights how can she prove I was through the white line which don't think I was anyway. Why not book me there and then?

apw99

I hear a lot of stories like this about guards basically abusing motorists. I know at least 3 people first hand who have had the issue. Always take their badge number and file a complaint against them or they will just keep getting away with it. It will go nowhere but if enough people complain then it helps..
I reckon they must be obliged to tell you what you are being chanred with???anyone??

Krusty_Clown

Looking at the position of the bike in the second photo, it is past the white line and into the pedestrian crossing, which is a 2 point offence (even if the white line is not strictly speaking visible).

From the first photo, you also travelled in a right-turn only lane, and then moved from there into another illegal position.

Sure, it's completely anal, but technically, they can nab you.. You'll have to wait and see how serious they are about the whole thing. She might not pursue it at all, or you could get a summons. If you get a summons, the judge might dismiss it out of hand.

Remember, just because the Gardai turn a blind eye to bikers travelling in the bus lane, it is still illegal, and a penalty point offence... So if you irk the wrong Garda, you could have to suffer the wrong consequences..

Having been bullied by a Garda in the past, I'm all for standing up for your rights, but only if you are approaching it from a defensible position, and in your case, I don't think you are. I reckon your best approach is to use the 'steffano defense', and hope that nothing comes of it.

I also wouldn't be in a rush to produce photos of Gardai sititng in that position (unless they're in plain-clothes!).

Hotblack Desiato

Luckycharm wrote:

Bike is a 49cc scooter so is covered by my full drivers license.

Only if it's restricted to 45km/h - most are not, but that's the letter of the law.

Now this really does sound like a bad dose of power tripping/PMT but a little bit of common sense on your part could have avoided it.
First off, know the rules of the road inside out - they're NOT written with bikes in mind, and many things that riders do in every city of the world is technically illegal in some way, but generally overlooked if not dangerous.
So when you do break the letter of the law, you'll be aware of it and keeping a really good eye out for the cops!
Take the telling off and don't talk back whatever you do (although many Gardai don't have a clue about the law as it affects bikes - I was asked for my insurance disc once!)

You should have stopped behind the Garda car (preferably 2 cars back) and chances are they would never have seen you at all! It would have cost you far less time than getting pulled over.

I don't know if anything will come of it, could depend on "targets" for the month in the local station, I'd have to say unlikely you'll get done, but you never know. Don't complain about a garda otherwise they and all their friends in the local station could make it their business to harass you.

Luckycharm

Got my Ticket yesterday and the reason it says is Overtaking in a dangerous manner which is completely bullsh*t given no oncoming traffic was going about 5k an hour past traffic that was not moving. THen was sitting at traffic lights for 30 seconds before going green.
Given have done this same manouvre for last 6 years many times with Garda present on corner or behind a garda bike with no problems.

HOw do I go about defending this- not pay the fee ring them up? What is the best way to defend it?

Dr4gul4

hmmm i guess u could go to the local cop shop and ask them about it. but imo, it'd be less hastle just to pay it, and also, dont pull in front of a garda car again in future, if u think about it. what if they have to pull off after another car, and ure moped is in the way, cos u pulling in front of them ?

Dangerous overtaking or not, maybe they saw sumthing you didnt ?

ringleader

When you're on a scooter or motorcycle, you should treat it like a car rather than a bicycle.

It's illegal to skip a line of cars to get to the front at a traffic light like a cyclist would.
You have to keep your own place in the line just like any other vehicle.
It's especially bad that you were passing static traffic. If any of them made a move in front of you, you would have been moving too fast and are a small target for them to notice properly.

Hotblack Desiato

ringleader wrote:

When you're on a scooter or motorcycle, you should treat it like a car rather than a bicycle.

It's illegal to skip a line of cars to get to the front at a traffic light like a cyclist would.
You have to keep your own place in the line just like any other vehicle.
It's especially bad that you were passing static traffic. If any of them made a move in front of you, you would have been moving too fast and are a small target for them to notice properly.

This is complete and utter nonsense from start to finish

You shouldn't ride a motorbike/scooter like a bicycle, but not like a car either. If you're going to be stuck in with the cars all the time you might as well be in one.

Passing a line of cars (aka filtering) is **NOT** illegal unless you cross a continuous white line or cause oncoming traffic to take avoiding action

Passing stopped traffic is far safer than passing moving traffic. I will usually wait for a slow moving line to stop completely before passing. That way any movement you can see is a danger sign, and cars can't pull out in front of you if they have no gap to turn.

Do you even have a bike or a bike licence? If so I strongly advise you to get some proper training ASAP from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Luckycharm

I have a clean full drivers license for over 11 years not even a parking ticket. I have been driving a moped for over 6 years in Dublins traffic so I would not say I do not have experience - I did get pulled over once and to fair I was in the wrong but never heard anything about it.
I have often followed Garda Motorbikes doing the exact same thing. I go the same route every day. As I said the traffic was at a standstill I was not speeding, did not pass on the inside, there is a broken line here, there was no oncoming traffic. There is no where a car could pull out it is literally 20 yds between traffic lights that are not very co-ordinated. The garda car did not see me till I pulled in front of it, there was another Motorbike already there- how did it get there?

The Lady garda as I said before got out screamed at another car first she was intent on getting me for something.
I have no problem paying a fine if I feel I was genuinely in the wrong. I don't so why should I just fork out €80 and take 2 pts on my license - basically take it up the arse :mad: I am quite willing to go in front of a judge just want to find out the best way to go about it.

HelterSkelter

Luckycharm wrote:

I have no problem paying a fine if I feel I was genuinely in the wrong. I don't so why should I just fork out €80 and take 2 pts on my license - basically take it up the arse :mad: I am quite willing to go in front of a judge just want to find out the best way to go about it.

You will have to take a day off work, how much will that cost you? Also you may have to get a solicitor. Judges tend to take you more seriously if you are representited by one. If you represent yourself you won't have a clue what is going on and will be very unsure of your rights.

I know it is not fair but learn from your lesson and next time be nice to the Guards, apologise (even if you are not in the wrong) and smile. This has saved me from numerous fines :-)

Luckycharm

Have no problem taking a couple of hours off work. I know a solicitor who also rides a bike going to ask him- have been in court before seen how it works due to the nature of my work. They also have to take a day out to go to court.
Believe me Smiling, apologising etc would not have made a blind bit of difference with this Garda.

kmick

If you go to court and lose then you will get a much larger fine and more points. that is the way it works. When you are riding a moped you are bound by the same laws as a car. If a car came up the turn right lane and pulled in in front of the traffic going straight on then that is an offence. So technically speaking by the letter of the law you were wrong. By the spirit of the law you will get away with it 99% of the time. The one time you wont get away with it is when a garda car is at the top of that line. You should have stopped behind it.

I would take my slap and learn my lesson. Don't mess around with a garda who is in a bad mood. If you take a risk in going to court you could get a much stiffer penalty. See what your friend says. Id say he will tell you to drop it.

RaiseTheBlinds

Luckycharm wrote:

I have a clean full drivers license for over 11 years not even a parking ticket. I have been driving a moped for over 6 years in Dublins traffic so I would not say I do not have experience - I did get pulled over once and to fair I was in the wrong but never heard anything about it.
I have often followed Garda Motorbikes doing the exact same thing. I go the same route every day. As I said the traffic was at a standstill I was not speeding, did not pass on the inside, there is a broken line here, there was no oncoming traffic. There is no where a car could pull out it is literally 20 yds between traffic lights that are not very co-ordinated. The garda car did not see me till I pulled in front of it, there was another Motorbike already there- how did it get there?

The Lady garda as I said before got out screamed at another car first she was intent on getting me for something.
I have no problem paying a fine if I feel I was genuinely in the wrong. I don't so why should I just fork out €80 and take 2 pts on my license - basically take it up the arse :mad: I am quite willing to go in front of a judge just want to find out the best way to go about it.

great to see somebody stand up against the gaurds !!!
absolutely on principal , you are to be admired.

i was told once that contacting a chief inspector in store street (wont say his name) was the appropriate way to go.
where he assured that they fully recognise the attitude problem garda personell have, particularly the motorbike police who are generally not very well liked even amongst their own.
this INSpector reckons that he and the majority of the authority are trying hard to erridicate the ill feeling people have towards the police, and are trying to encourage a pro friendly police unit.

please dont roll over,
gosh i feel like telling a few stories i have about the garda !!!
the last of which , where in donnybrook station i was pawned off by a rude counter service bloke,....who was only dying to go back into the rear room to watch "THE SIMPSONS" !!! i could hear it in the backround.

galwaytt

ringleader wrote:

When you're on a scooter or motorcycle, you should treat it like a car rather than a bicycle.

It's illegal to skip a line of cars to get to the front at a traffic light like a cyclist would.
You have to keep your own place in the line just like any other vehicle.

You are factually incorrect, and if you ever undergo your Rospa or IAM test, you will see that I am right. Filtering, as it's called, is NOT illegal. It is is illegal in Germany, and many US states, but not in this country.

Furthermore, the only impediment to overtaking is a solid white line, oncoming traffic etc- if the last two spaces at the front are flanked by a solid white line, it's technically true, you can't do the last two spaces (quite common to mark roads this way). Outside of that, it's entirely acceptable to filter right up as far as you can (legally) go, and so long as you get back inside the white line marking your lane when you stop - you can't hover outside the solid white, for instance

It's especially bad that you were passing static traffic.

Passing traffic - whether moving or not - is entirely legal and acceptable.

If any of them made a move in front of you, you would have been moving too fast and are a small target for them to notice properly

Some corrections here too, and I'll take OP's facts as given, that this was a low-speed maneouvre....so where are you getting speeding from? I would point out that, on 2 wheels, you're always a target, so observation is everything.

Luckycharm your comment "...which is completely bullsh*t given no oncoming traffic was going about 5k an hour past traffic that was not moving. THen was sitting at traffic lights for 30 seconds before going green.
is probably what you need to concentrate on, here - ignore all the other stuff. You did not overtake against oncoming traffic, using empty roadway, and your speed was, at 5km/h, around walking space. The speed limit is 50km/h, so you were exercising particular care for the prevailing conditions, riding as it was, at only 10% of the allowed. I would cite this as an example of responsible riding, and that, de facto, is not dangerous, and so the charge is moot.

No further questions, m'lud......


1.

Hotblack Desiato

Seems we are in agreement galwaytt

I think the OP should follow the advice of the other poster and try to talk to an inspector about this. They get it in the neck from judges when their officers bring rubbish charges into court and waste the court's time.
If that doesn't work then by all means challenge it in court if you have a 100% clear conscience that what you did was safe. The charge is dangerous overtaking, not crossing a white line, so you are by definition not guilty if what you did was not dangerous.

To me, it's hard to imagine how the garda in question would justify that charge in court, so there's an extremely strong chance she won't turn up.

Get a good solicitor though just in case. Either way I'd say your chances are pretty good.

Luckycharm

Thanks for your advice - Yep I am def now going to challenge it. I was really confused at the time why I was pulled over and thought it was for crossing white line where pedestrians are which I hadn't. She did not explain herself very well.
As I have said I would no problem paying it if I felt I had done something wrong. I still do the same manouerve every day as does every other bike I see just not when there is cop car at the top of the traffic