Are you religious?

Dave!

Take it to the PM's!

No option for spiritual?

Whats uninteligent anyway about a belief system or the lack of one?

JC 2K3

Tristrame wrote:

No option for spiritual?

3rd option?

InFront

InFront wrote:

How many atheist funerals have people been to?

I haven't been to any funerals, does that count?

thelordofcheese

I worship at the first church of cybertron.
Optimus prime died for our sins, don't you know.


Well more because Hot-Rod is a retardicon, but still....

Terry

thelordofcheese wrote:

I worship at the first church of cybertron.
Optimus prime died for our sins, don't you know.


Well more because Hot-Rod is a retardicon, but still....

Dude, Optimus Prime is jewish.

Haven't a Clue

I'm a Catholic, but chose option number 2. Went to mass yesterday cause I'd to collect for the irish special olympics team, but it was the first time since christmas.

I find a lot of the morals that come from catholicism to be helpful in life and I believe they give a good guideline as to what's right or wrong.

However, I find I've to ignore the authorities over in the Vatican as they seem unable to move on with society. The whole contraception thing in Africa's gone past a joke at this stage and some of the Vatican's backwardness astonishes me sometimes.

Dave!

Haven't a Clue wrote:

I'm a Catholic, but chose option number 2. Went to mass yesterday cause I'd to collect for the irish special olympics team, but it was the first time since christmas.

I find a lot of the morals that come from catholicism to be helpful in life and I believe they give a good guideline as to what's right or wrong.

However, I find I've to ignore the authorities over in the Vatican as they seem unable to move on with society. The whole contraception thing in Africa's gone past a joke at this stage and some of the Vatican's backwardness astonishes me sometimes.

Why do you continue to call yourself a Catholic if you ignore the Pope? He's kind of an important part of the Catholic church!

JC 2K3

Haven't a Clue wrote:

I find a lot of the morals that come from catholicism to be helpful in life and I believe they give a good guideline as to what's right or wrong.

Haven't a Clue wrote:

However, I find I've to ignore the authorities over in the Vatican as they seem unable to move on with society.

Contradiction.

It seems society, and not the Catholic Church, is the source of your knowledge.

Zillah

Haven't a Clue wrote:

I find a lot of the morals that come from catholicism to be helpful in life and I believe they give a good guideline as to what's right or wrong.

Have you actually read the bible? Its a horrible book full of murder and slavery. Or do you ignore that as well as the Pope? In which case, what makes you a Catholic at all?

Haven't a Clue

Ah bollix. Knew it'd bollix up what I'm trying to say.

I find a lot of the moral teachings gained from christianity to be helpful. From the religion itself, not the pope preaching it. That's my point.

I'm crap with explainin me beliefs anyway, so go on, give me a good roasting...

Terry

There will be no roasting in this thread. Especially that of the spit variety.

The bible, while violent and quite often misinterpreted, does teach some good moral values and can be a great guide on how to live your life. The ten commandments being a particularly good part.

Terry

Terry wrote:

There will be no roasting in this thread. Especially that of the spit variety.

The bible, while violent and quite often misinterpreted, does teach some good moral values and can be a great guide on how to live your life. The ten commandments being a particularly good part.

Yeah, worshiping other gods is totally wrong

Sangre

I think 'thou shalt not kill' is a spiffing idea. Doesn't mean I'd call myself Catholic.

Nalz

Used to be, not now. Still respect my "old" religion, and I try to be the best person I can in life. I eat cornflakes alot to prevent me from the oul gula sin. And Im nice too people so its all good

Red Hand

No, I'm not religous. I guess the ceremony/smoke and mirrors might be the only thing to attract me to it, but as for faith, I have none.

Zillah

Terry wrote:

The bible, while violent and quite often misinterpreted, does teach some good moral values and can be a great guide on how to live your life. The ten commandments being a particularly good part.

The vast majority of it is evil nonesense. Its a myth that its "misinterpreted", the fag-hating ultra-Christians in the US are absolutely right about what their God teaches, it really is that divisive and intolerant. Modern Christians, with their relatively liberal and tolerant beliefs need to do philosophical gymnastics to try and "reinterpret" the Bible as anything other than the violent chauvinistic piece of nonesense that it is.

Esmereldina

Haven't a Clue wrote:

Ah bollix. Knew it'd bollix up what I'm trying to say.

I find a lot of the moral teachings gained from christianity to be helpful. From the religion itself, not the pope preaching it. That's my point.

I'm crap with explainin me beliefs anyway, so go on, give me a good roasting...

Not meaning to roast you or anything
but if you think about it you'll find that most of the reasonable moral guidelines in the bible and christian teaching anre not at all exclusive to Christianity -- ie don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery and so on -- and can be found in the moral codes of most religions and laws (obviously the adultery one is not enshrined in the law codes of secular western states, but it is part of an unofficial code of social conduct. ie most people agree that it's not a great thing to do, even if they still do it). So although you got these moral guidelines from the Catholic Church, chances are that if you weren't a Catholic, you would have got them from somewhere else anyway. They are more like guidelines for living life in human society, than religious teachings.
Take me for example: I'm an atheist, and I haven't killed a single person in my life yet

DilbertPartII

No one came back from the dead to tell us what life is after death if ever there was. I am believer though. So, let's wait and see.

Thrill

Terry wrote:

The bible, while violent and quite often misinterpreted, does teach some good moral values and can be a great

guide on how to live your life. The ten commandments being a particularly good part.

Its easy to talk about the commandments, but how come no-one talks about
the punishments for breaking them.Shouldnt good christians who obey Gods
commandments carry out the penalty for breaking them as God demands?

That penalty, in almost every case, is death.




I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME.

Worshipping any other god should be punished by death. (Ex. 22:20)

Deuteronomy 13:6-9: "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods", do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death.


THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. Leviticus 24:16


REMEMBER THOU KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH DAY.

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD . Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. Exodus 31:15


HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.

(Ex. 21:17). Even Jesus, in Matthew 15:4, taught that children who speak ill of their parents should be killed for it.


For every one who curses his father or his mother shall be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his blood is upon him. Leviticus 20:9



THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.Exodus 21:12

There is no penalty, however, for killing people whom God had told you to kill, whether they have broken any of these commandments or not-- be they guilty or innocent, man, woman or child, even entire nations.
Also, if a man strikes a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, he must only pay a fine to the husband. But if the woman dies, the offender must be put to death.



THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.

If a man commit adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:10


THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

For stealing slaves, Exodus 21:16
Whoever steals a man,
whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to
death.

For stealing most things other than slaves, penalties involve making restitution and paying fines.


THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR.

A false witness shall not be unpunished, and
he that speaketh lies shall perish.

Prov. 19:9



THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

Mark 7:22 lists coveting right up there with adultery, murder, and blasphemy, all requiring death penalties.


The church is pretty much powerless these days but when it had great power untold numbers of innocent men
women and children died because of these ten commandments. They are nothing to be proud of.

Terry

NEIGHBOR

That's all I need to quote to make my point about misinterpetation.

The basic fundamentals behind the ten commandments are quite sound though.
You cannot deny that.

Now before anyone goes and misinterprets my post here, I'll just say that I'm talking about the very basics here. Nothing too deep.
Example: "Thou shalt not steal". You can't really go wrong there.

Dave!

Terry wrote:

That's all I need to quote to make my point about misinterpetation.

The basic fundamentals behind the ten commandments are quite sound though.
You cannot deny that.

Now before anyone goes and misinterprets my post here, I'll just say that I'm talking about the very basics here. Nothing too deep.
Example: "Thou shalt not steal". You can't really go wrong there.

What's your point here Terry? lol. You can find nice parts in almost any literary text.

Hitler says in Mein Kampf that, "I had honoured my father, but my mother I had loved."

Isn't that sweet

Terry

I probably should have expanded on that.

That part i quoted was american english. Therefore those extracts from the bible were obviously translated from the original text by an american. They could even have been translated from british english of from french. You don't know. The bible has been translated so many times, that the original meaning is completely lost on most people. Exodus was written roughly 5,000 years ago. The world was a much different place back then. Who knows exactly what the author meant and how they wanted their words interpreted?
There are a couple of examples here of how the wording has been changed over the years by different religions to suit their own needs. This trend continues to this very day.
Like I said though, the basics are sound.

Dave!

Yeah the basics are sound; but I still don't see what point you're trying to make. There's lots of good thing, wonderful things, in the Bible. And they're right alongside some terrible, horrific things. So you can see where using the Bible to get your morals falls down.

Terry

I was just referring to the ten commandments. All I'm saying is that they are good rules to live by.
As for the other stuff about misinterpretation, just take a look at the differences between the ten commandments as written in exodus and deuteronomy. The bible can be interpreted in lots of different ways and to suit the needs of those reading it. A lot of it is quite vague and easily open to misinterpretation, so I wouldn't take any of it at face value, nor would I allow someone to tell me what to do based upon their interpretation of it.
or something.

Dave!

Okily Dokily, lol

Zillah

Terry wrote:

A lot of it is quite vague and easily open to misinterpretation, so I wouldn't take any of it at face value

Right...so lets stop turning to ancient texts as sources of moral guidance then, shall we? Considering they're so open to misinterpretation, so vague and out of date...

And whats so great about the ten commandments? No Gods before me? Don't take the "holy" name in vain? Keep the Sabbath holy? Thats the first three out the window. Coveting itself as a crime? Thats stupid, whats this, 1984-style thought-crime?

Terry

Nobody is holding a gun to your head, dude.

Zillah

No, they're not. Quite right. But thats an absolutely irrelevant thing to say. You asserted that the ten commandments were a good moral guidline, I disagree.

Whether someone is forcing us to follow them or not has zero to do with the discussion.

Terry

Did someone piss in your cornflakes?
It is my opinion that the basic outlines of the ten commandments are a good moral guideline. I don't really give a flying fúck what anyone else does as long as they don't annoy me.

InFront

There are few people who contribute so much to public debates on religion more than atheists. They seem highly engrossed in it. Just the other day that Kilroy guy (himself an atheist) was on the radio giving his opinion on the use of mosques by women.

Richard Dawkins, interestingly, would be neither the wealthy man he is today, nor anyone of fame, were it not for religions. Just an odd little paradox.

humbert

InFront wrote:

Richard Dawkins, interestingly, would be neither the wealthy man he is today, nor anyone of fame, were it not for religions. Just an odd little paradox.

Not really any different than a chemist profiting from inventing a wonder drug for some ailment imo.

InFront

But a chemist doesn't question the right of Pharmacology to exist as a discipline. Dawkins finds the mere existence of theologians ridiculous.

Zillah

Terry wrote:

Did someone piss in your cornflakes?

People who have trouble following simple conversations piss in my cornflakes.

It is my opinion that the basic outlines of the ten commandments are a good moral guideline.

Right, so we're back to discussing that rather than whether we're being forced to follow them or not? Great, but stop moving the goalposts. I'll refer you to my post a few lines up about why half of the 10 commandments are nonesense.

Oh hell, I'll summarise it for you:

1 - No other Gods before Him
-- Its immoral to not worship the Christian God?

2 - Don't take the holy name in vain.
-- Its a moral failing to say "Oh Jesus would ya ever stop xyz"?

3 - Keep the Sabbath Holy.
-- It is morally wrong to paint a wall on a Sunday?

4 - Thou shalt not coveth etc X2
-- The very desire for something that isn't yours is a moral failing? Better get some thought police on the job.



So thats 5 of the 10 that are nonesense. Murder and stealing I think everyone can agree on (and if you need the Bible to tell you that then you're pretty screwed anyway...). Lying and adultery are kind of grey areas depending on who you talking to.

InFront wrote:

There are few people who contribute so much to public debates on religion more than atheists.

Interesting that those who spend the most time pondering and debating the matter conclude theres no God. Rather telling I'd have thought.

While we're on the matter, numerous studies have shown a direct correlation between lack of religious belief and higher intelligence/standard of education

InFront wrote:

But a chemist doesn't question the right of Pharmacology to exist as a discipline. Dawkins finds the mere existence of theologians ridiculous.

Actually, to continue the metaphor correctly, the inventor of the cure is questioning to right to exist of people who go around creating and spreading plagues...

And theology is nonesense. The existence of theologians is ridiculous. Its a discipline of making stuff up. And I use the word "discipline" rather lightly.

InFront

While we're on the matter, numerous studies have shown a direct correlation between lack of religious belief and higher intelligence/standard of education

As for education, it's been said so often that I wonder if that smiley was an acknowledgement of it: those who are well educated mostly differ economically - they live different lives, often forgetting the importance of their faith when caught up in other issues.
If you prioritise your career and your material wealth, you're going to have less time for God.

As for the link between actual intelligence and faith, don't be so patronising. There are a lot of atheists who are smarter than I am, there are a lot of believers who are smarter than you.

Anyway, go ahead and post those surveys.

And theology is nonesense. The existence of theologians is ridiculous. Its a discipline of making stuff up. And I use the word "discipline" rather lightly.

Richard Dawkins devotes a writing career to discussing theology and his own personal beliefs. If I don't like something, I don't devote my career to it. The atheist obsession with religion is something that I don't particularly mind, but can never understand.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

Richard Dawkins devotes a writing career to discussing theology and his own personal beliefs. If I don't like something, I don't devote my career to it. The atheist obsession with religion is something that I don't particularly mind, but can never understand.

If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no anti-war/drugs/abuse campaigns. To suggest that one must like something to speak out against it is so ridiculous as to be laughable....hah.

Terry

Zillah wrote:

Right, so we're back to discussing that rather than whether we're being forced to follow them or not? Great, but stop moving the goalposts. I'll refer you to my post a few lines up about why half of the 10 commandments are nonesense.<snip>

Zillah. That's your opinion. You are entitled to it.
I'm not going to argue semantics with you.
I consider myself non-religious, but I have an interest in religion and religious people. You can go and bash religion all you want (only to a certain extent here though. rulese are rules), but at the end of the day, it is only your opinion. If the whole world agreed on everything, we would all die from boredom.

InFront wrote:

The atheist obsession with religion is something that I don't particularly mind, but can never understand.

Curiousity, dude.
Well that and the history behind beliefs. Where they came from, how they came about, why some religions thrive while others die out.
The majority of people in this country (if not the entire world) are brought up to believe something. It is human nature to question these things. Some religions will try to supress this questioning of beliefs and that makes people question them even more. We're a curious folk, us humans.

nesf

Sangre wrote:

If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no anti-war/drugs/abuse campaigns.

And the world would be a better place true. Residents against Racism being a case and point.

InFront

Sangre wrote:

If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no anti-war/drugs/abuse campaigns. To suggest that one must like something to speak out against it is so ridiculous as to be laughable....hah.

Religion isn't a physically destructive act itself, so that's an inaccuarte comparison.
You'd be better off comparing it to say, patriotism. Patriotism itself doesn't harm anyone, it's a state of mind. Where are all the anti-patriots?

I would consider myself the opposite of a "patriot", in that I don't think much of it. That's why I tend not to discuss nationalism. I don't understand the evangelical atheists' infatuation with believers and what they believe. Look at the atheist forum - it's all about religion.

As terry says, some people just have a natural curiosity. Obviously that's not a bad thing at all. I only mention it to say it's a paradox, that's all.

Sangre

No, it is actually a perfect example. You claimed that you need to like something to study it or speak out against it. I disagree and pointed out the fallacy of this statement. It doesn't matter what you think of religion, it matters what Dawkins thinks.

Its not really a point of debate. I wasn't stating which was worse or more destructive.

humbert

I'm not attempting to disprove anything you've said previously but the reason I myself, an atheist, would speak out about religion is the same as the reason I'd feel compelled to correct someone who was speaking publically using misleading "facts". I also think there are cases where religion inhibits progress, where religious beliefs stand in the way of scientific advancement(I'd prefer not to argue over individual examples)

InFront

You claimed that you need to like something to study it or speak out against it. I disagree and pointed out the fallacy of this statement.

Wrong, that isn't what I claimed.

If I don't like something, I don't devote my career to it.

That's a personal statement, it was then explained using patriotism as a perfectly valid example.

InFront

humbert wrote:

religious beliefs stand in the way of scientific advancement(I'd prefer not to argue over individual examples)

Maybe not argue, but can you just mention some?

Sangre

Stem cell research, evolution, geology, cloning, sexual education and research, astronomy.

Some more recent examples then others.

Sangre

You're right Infront, I misread your post slightly. I do apologise.

It is still a silly statement when looked at a perspective outside religion. It just seems like another attempt to put down Dawkins. In fact, not liking something is often in the biggest factor in compelling people to make a career out of an area.

humbert

InFront wrote:

Maybe not argue, but can you just mention some?

Well there's the obvious example of genetic research and how it is not for man to medal in human design. Now I should say that I acknowledge that there are other good reasons not to be cavalier in that area and not every single religious person is opposed to it.

InFront

How is religion - specifically - preventing the advancement of those things? You think atheist scientists are worrying what religion says about genetic research? Examples?

Sangre

'Stand in the way' doesn't necessarily mean preventing. If they actually did manage to prevent what they wanted we'd still be the centre of the universe.

Although religion is preventing stem cell research big time as most research investors won't touch it with a 10ft barge pole because of the controversy surrounding it (especially in America where the religious backed govt has banned it I think). Also if religion did manage to prevent something we wouldn't know as it would never be discovered. Its kind of a moot point

humbert

InFront wrote:

How is religion - specifically - preventing the advancement of those things? You think atheist scientists are worrying what religion says about genetic research? Examples?

as you know scientists need approval from governments which in democracies are influenced by the people and the religious opponents are often both vocal and influential.

Haven't a Clue

Bloody hell, religion debates are deep.

Take my advice. If you make an opinion which is being targeted left, right and centre, leg it. Claim that you were misinterpreted, and leg it...