Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Inter-faith relations
Comments
-
DinoBot wrote:But really, do you think god speaks to you in your head ?
Can I be utterly clear is saying I’m not suggesting the contention that coincidence is significant is strange. Quite the opposite. For example, that paperback New Age book The Celestine Prophecy makes great play of it, provoking an apt piece of wit from the Skeptic’s DictionaryDo you think it is a coincidence that coincidences are happening more and more frequently?
I’d suggest this reliance on coincidence is really no different to hearing voices, in principle. Its just more socially acceptable to claim coincidence or to have dreamt something than to say you’ve heard voices (or been abducted by aliens).0 -
Schuhart wrote:Indeed. From my perspective, you have failed to demonstrate that your reluctance to accept that voices in the head is fundamentally the same thing as dreams or coincidence is based on anything. I can appreciate that you understand the connotations that go with voices in the head, but I just see a reluctance to follow that where it leads.
I think that hearing a voice in your head may not be okay from a religious point of view because it equates that individual with a Prophet. I could be wrong about that. Also, it's difficult to know if it's really happening or if it's just a mental disorder.
From an Islamic point of view, a dream with the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) may be more significant but I guess that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on due to our difference in beliefs (or lack thereof). At the same time, this thing about the dream is based on a hadith and I'm not sure of its authenticity. Leave that with me and I'll get back to you.
And with respect to "happenings" in real life which might appear as a coincidence to a non-believer. From my own personal experience, some of them (one in particular) are just too peculiar to just be a coincidence.Schuhart wrote:It gives the example of a group sitting under an elevated granary on poles (to protect the cereals against wild animals), which suddenly collapses and hurts them badly. They can appreciate that the immediate cause is that termites have slowly perforated the poles until they were no longer capable of keeping the granary stable. But they’ll go on to say it was extremely unlikely that they should sit beneath the granary at the precise moment that it fell, seeing this coincidence as proof of witchcraft.
The kind of "happenings" that I'm talking about have a lot more going for them than that.Schuhart wrote:I see no objective reason for distinguishing between your belief that God has personally intervened in your life, or a Christian who believes he has been granted some favour that he prayed to Jesus for, or a person who believes a witch is responsible for an accident.the_new_mr wrote:Schuhart wrote:I’d only add that comment from before – lots of people from lots of different religions report miracles and divine intervention.
If someone thinks that something is witchcraft then they are free to think that but that doesn't fly for a situation where someone prays to God and then something out of this world happens.
Also, that particular quote wasn't the first time you've mentioned this (hence the "from before" on your part)... and it wasn't the first I answered it (hence the "And I'll only add the same comment I made then").
If we're going to go round in circles then please let's at least not re-type the same points.Schuhart wrote:True, but I though you wanted me to be more intense.Schuart wrote:Incidently, Stephen Colbert – the guy on the right doing the fundamentalist Christian thing – is reputed to be a practicing Catholic in real life. Not all theists see a problem in recognising when religion is risible.DinoBot wrote:But really, do you think god speaks to you in your head ? Is god interacting with you on a daily basis ?0 -
the_new_mr wrote:Let me clarify.
From an Islamic point of view, a dream with the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) may be more significant but I guess that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on due to our difference in beliefs (or lack thereof). At the same time, this thing about the dream is based on a hadith and I'm not sure of its authenticity. Leave that with me and I'll get back to you.
Is it not very difficult to say you had a dream about the Prophet because you would have no reference to say what he looked like. You would be guessing it was the Prophet.
Plus, if someone prays to a false god, say Lord Shiva, to save their child from an illness and the child is saved, does this prove the exsistance of Shiva ?0 -
the_new_mr wrote:I think that hearing a voice in your head may not be okay from a religious point of view because it equates that individual with a Prophet.
I’m left with much the same feeling as the whole ‘Scientific miracles’ business. Something that pretends to ‘prove’ God actually turns out to be an extra thing that requires faith – as in saying ‘God has to allow everything to happen so, by definition, he makes coincidences happen’.the_new_mr wrote:That must be a joke... and a bad one at that.0 -
DinoBot wrote:Is it not very difficult to say you had a dream about the Prophet because you would have no reference to say what he looked like. You would be guessing it was the Prophet.DinoBot wrote:Plus, if someone prays to a false god, say Lord Shiva, to save their child from an illness and the child is saved, does this prove the exsistance of Shiva ?Schuhart wrote:I know we’re circlingSchuhart wrote:If God speaks in your head you are a prophet. If, instead, he communicates by appearing in your dream (or sends you an email for that matter), that’s achieving the same result, but somehow permitted.
As for the dreams thing, I think it's to do with the difference between the waking world and the world of dreams. I understand that the soul may travel in ways that our body cannot while we sleep and provides somewhat of an explanation for why people may sometimes see the future in their dreams as their soul is not bounded by time and space in the same way that their bodies are.
And I know you can't see the difference between someone being contacted by God in some way in a dream and being talked to whilst awake but I guess we're just going to have to leave it at that for now (as I stated previously).Schuhart wrote:Something that pretends to ‘prove’ God actually turns out to be an extra thing that requires faith – as in saying ‘God has to allow everything to happen so, by definition, he makes coincidences happen’.
The kind of experience I'm talking about is the kind of thing that would freak anyone out... even you Schuhart. At this point, I feel really tempted to tell you of my experience but I wanted to keep it private. I'll try to think of another one in the meantime but it won't have the same effect as the one I'm talking about.
...after clicking submit...
Got one!
Once, I promised a friend that I would send a box of school books of his over in the post because he was traveling by plane and couldn't afford to take them all with him (because of the extra weight). Anyway, I procrastinated in sending them over a good bit (it's a problem of mine) but when I eventually got round to it, I couldn't find one of the most important books. Then I remembered a situation where I had to change a flat tire in the middle of the night and I had taken out the box of books and put them on the street to get access to the spare tire. I remember being so worried that I had lost the book on the street without noticing or something. I sent an e-mail to my friend telling him that I would soon be sending over the books but that I couldn't find that book and was so sorry for losing it.
Anyway, about 3 days later, I had a dream that a mutual friend of ours called me on the phone and told me not to worry because he had the book. I remember waking up feeling relieved for a moment in those first few moments you usually have before you realise it was a dream but then I did realise it was just a dream and remember feeling so disappointed. Then, a few hours later, my friend (the owner of the books) called me from abroad and told me not to worry about the book I thought I had lost because he had given it to our mutual friend! Phew!!
Like I said, that's not quite as eerie as that other experience but you get the picture about the kind of things I'm talking about.0 -
Advertisement
-
the_new_mr wrote:First of all, He's not going to send you an e-mail so let's not take the micky.the_new_mr wrote:Like I said, that's not quite as eerie as that other experience but you get the picture about the kind of things I'm talking about.0
-
You know, after I'd made the post and went to bed, I realised that the example I wrote really wasn't a very good one as it doesn't necessarily show any obvious connection with God (such as prayer beforehand or something like that). I was too tired to get up again and post that
. Anyway, you can at least take it as a good level of the kind of eerieness (if that's a word) for the kind of experiences I'm talking about. And I'll try to remember another experience other than the one I want to keep private that seems a bit more obvious.
0 -
Inspiration comes from many sources. As I see it, chiefly from other people. But picking a line from our old mate BrunoGod is not exhausted by creation or by revelation. He does not cease to speak.the_new_mr wrote:And I'll try to remember another experience other than the one I want to keep private that seems a bit more obvious.
Incidently, I’m convinced it has to do with a woman. In which case, I’m sure she feels you're a gift from God too.:)0 -
the_new_mr wrote:
This has already been discussed on this forum I believe. In the Quran, God describes Himself as being the Most Merciful and it is this mercy that makes Him grant the wishes of someone asking out of sincerity. I believe that this sincerity is what counts for the moment that that person is praying to God (even if it is indirectly).
Are you saying that other gods like shiva or Gaia are all a form of Allah :eek:
So I don't actually have to pray to Allah, as long as my prayer is done with sincerity to any god it will be answered ?
That is news to me and sounds more like Bahi faith than Islam. Where does it say this in Quran ?0 -
Schuhart wrote:I’d suggest that if some alarm bell is making you want to keep it private, you are probably right to listen and keep it secret. You know yourself that, unless its next week’s Lotto numbers, it’s probably not going to convince me anyway.
That reminds me, I once read a cool one-liner. It said, why are your car keys always in the last place you look? Because you found themSchuhart wrote:Incidently, I’m convinced it has to do with a woman. In which case, I’m sure she feels you're a gift from God too.DinoBot wrote:Are you saying that other gods like shiva or Gaia are all a form of Allah :eek:
So I don't actually have to pray to Allah, as long as my prayer is done with sincerity to any god it will be answered ?0 -
Advertisement
-
the_new_mr wrote:
No, I'm not saying that and I can't answer that. It's way beyond my knowledge. I know that there is no God but God Himself (Allah) and I believe that anything that is granted to anyone is because He allows it to happen or makes it happen (which, in essence, is the same thing but has a subtle difference when discussing the idea of fate).
I get your point. If all is from Allah then ALL must be from Allah even when good things happen to unbelivers.
It is however a circular argument. And a way of avoiding the question.
Because the action of granting the prayers to someone who is praying to a false god will only strengthen their views that their god is real. Cant see why Allah would want to do such a thing ? (and I know the answer, Allah does as he pleases, a christian would answer "God moves in mysteries ways" :-)0 -
As the_new_mr said, it's not really for us to describe God's actions towards non-Muslims. But we do know that He is Ar-Rahim (the merciful), and He is Ar-Rahman (the compassionate). So who are we then to dictate the extent of his mercy? remember the hadith qudsi where we read what is translated to mean "my mercy prevails over my wrath". (Link - Hadith Qudsi One)
Anyway, it is impossible to be sure about how Allah responds to non-Muslims, but do we really want to go dismissing his mercy towards them?0 -
Yes. And to illustrate this point further, we are told in a hadith that if mercy could be divided into 100 parts, God gave the earth one part and left 99 for Himself.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Hajj/1427/ShowersofMercy/01.shtml0 -
InFront wrote:It is impossible to know the mind of God, so what you say is possible. He does say positive things about the Christians and Jews, people of the book, in the Qur'an. I don't think there is any doubt that Christians and Jews are closer to Allah and to Islam than atheists, for example.
not an expert on islam but assuming its very simular to christianity, i would imagine it wouldnt really matter what faith you are (depending on ones interpretation of the bible).
i would promote the idea that an atheist would be closer to God than a christian if the atheist does good deeds and the christian doesnt do much.
and now for my favourite bible qoute, which i like to pull at any debate i can.
john 3:18
"Listen to me my children, do not worship God through word or tounge but through deed and truth".
and to address what the OP is saying,
what are the chance of me marrying a muslim woman?0 -
Dontico wrote:i would promote the idea that an atheist would be closer to God than a christian if the atheist does good deeds and the christian doesnt do much.
I just meant that Christians and Jews are given special recognition in the Qur'an and I think it is fair to assume that they live closer to God than an atheist who rejectes God, all things being equal (that is to say, disregarding good deeds).
This is illustrated very well by your quote out of the bible. I wouldn't agree with the "do not worship God through word or tongue..." piece, because in Islam these things are required, but the second part is one that is completely compatible with Islam: "...but through deed and truth". So we have things in common.and to address what the OP is saying,
what are the chance of me marrying a muslim woman?0 -
InFront wrote:I'm not sure I understand the question, are you asking if you would have to become Muslim or could there be a dual-ceremony? You're a guy if I remember correctly:) so would really need to be a Muslim to marry a Muslim woman in the first place, so I don't think the issue of a sort of dual ceremony would arise.
ah dam it. Iranian women, the ultimate goal.0 -
Advertisement