Inter-faith relations

Schuhart

DinoBot wrote:

But really, do you think god speaks to you in your head ?

In fairness, he's not saying he hears voices. He says God communicates via dreams and coincidences. I’m suggesting that there’s no real difference between saying that and people saying they heard God talking to them. My argument is that if we’ve got so far as suggesting that God communicates to us at all, we might as well be open to him sending us emails or posting on bulletin boards or whatever method of communication takes his divine fancy.

Can I be utterly clear is saying I’m not suggesting the contention that coincidence is significant is strange. Quite the opposite. For example, that paperback New Age book The Celestine Prophecy makes great play of it, provoking an apt piece of wit from the Skeptic’s Dictionary

Do you think it is a coincidence that coincidences are happening more and more frequently?

I’d suggest this reliance on coincidence is really no different to hearing voices, in principle. Its just more socially acceptable to claim coincidence or to have dreamt something than to say you’ve heard voices (or been abducted by aliens).

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

Indeed. From my perspective, you have failed to demonstrate that your reluctance to accept that voices in the head is fundamentally the same thing as dreams or coincidence is based on anything. I can appreciate that you understand the connotations that go with voices in the head, but I just see a reluctance to follow that where it leads.

Let me clarify.

I think that hearing a voice in your head may not be okay from a religious point of view because it equates that individual with a Prophet. I could be wrong about that. Also, it's difficult to know if it's really happening or if it's just a mental disorder.

From an Islamic point of view, a dream with the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) may be more significant but I guess that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on due to our difference in beliefs (or lack thereof). At the same time, this thing about the dream is based on a hadith and I'm not sure of its authenticity. Leave that with me and I'll get back to you.

And with respect to "happenings" in real life which might appear as a coincidence to a non-believer. From my own personal experience, some of them (one in particular) are just too peculiar to just be a coincidence.

Schuhart wrote:

It gives the example of a group sitting under an elevated granary on poles (to protect the cereals against wild animals), which suddenly collapses and hurts them badly. They can appreciate that the immediate cause is that termites have slowly perforated the poles until they were no longer capable of keeping the granary stable. But they’ll go on to say it was extremely unlikely that they should sit beneath the granary at the precise moment that it fell, seeing this coincidence as proof of witchcraft.

This could just be a coincidence. Then again, maybe it's not. But the criteria for such an incident isn't "out there" enough to be classified as any more than a coincidence/accident/being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, as a Muslim, I believe that nothing happens unless it was meant to happen but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a sign from God or anything like that. God knows really. It could just be that God "lets" it happen if you know what I mean? Anyway, that's getting into the ideas of fate which has already been talked about in another thread and should probably be kept clear from this thread.

The kind of "happenings" that I'm talking about have a lot more going for them than that.

Schuhart wrote:

I see no objective reason for distinguishing between your belief that God has personally intervened in your life, or a Christian who believes he has been granted some favour that he prayed to Jesus for, or a person who believes a witch is responsible for an accident.

Schuhart, you have mentioned this point already and I have already mentioned its answer. Please read my posts carefully.

the_new_mr wrote:

Schuhart wrote:

I’d only add that comment from before – lots of people from lots of different religions report miracles and divine intervention.

And I'll only add the same comment I made then and that is that my experience is about the existence of God and not proof that Islam is the right religion (although I think it is... obviously).

If someone thinks that something is witchcraft then they are free to think that but that doesn't fly for a situation where someone prays to God and then something out of this world happens.

Also, that particular quote wasn't the first time you've mentioned this (hence the "from before" on your part)... and it wasn't the first I answered it (hence the "And I'll only add the same comment I made then").

If we're going to go round in circles then please let's at least not re-type the same points.

Schuhart wrote:

True, but I though you wanted me to be more intense.

That must be a joke... and a bad one at that. If it's not then that's a dire excuse.

Schuart wrote:

Incidently, Stephen Colbert – the guy on the right doing the fundamentalist Christian thing – is reputed to be a practicing Catholic in real life. Not all theists see a problem in recognising when religion is risible.

I know that. He's free to it if he so wishes. I'm a laid back dude. I like to laugh and love to have a joke at lots of things but religion is where I draw the line. Regardless of what I believe, the forum charter is clear and it was written before I even came to this forum, let alone become a moderator.

DinoBot wrote:

But really, do you think god speaks to you in your head ? Is god interacting with you on a daily basis ?

You seem to have a knack lately for understanding the opposite of what's on the screen

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

Let me clarify.

From an Islamic point of view, a dream with the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) may be more significant but I guess that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on due to our difference in beliefs (or lack thereof). At the same time, this thing about the dream is based on a hadith and I'm not sure of its authenticity. Leave that with me and I'll get back to you.

Is it not very difficult to say you had a dream about the Prophet because you would have no reference to say what he looked like. You would be guessing it was the Prophet.

Plus, if someone prays to a false god, say Lord Shiva, to save their child from an illness and the child is saved, does this prove the exsistance of Shiva ?

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

I think that hearing a voice in your head may not be okay from a religious point of view because it equates that individual with a Prophet.

I know we’re circling, but I really cannot see this as more than an over-literal interpretation. If God speaks in your head you are a prophet. If, instead, he communicates by appearing in your dream (or sends you an email for that matter), that’s achieving the same result, but somehow permitted. I know you’re getting frustrated by repetition of points, but I don’t see them as being refuted in any way. For my part, I still don’t understand how the source of a voice might be questioned in some what that the source of a coincidence won’t be.

I’m left with much the same feeling as the whole ‘Scientific miracles’ business. Something that pretends to ‘prove’ God actually turns out to be an extra thing that requires faith – as in saying ‘God has to allow everything to happen so, by definition, he makes coincidences happen’.

the_new_mr wrote:

That must be a joke... and a bad one at that.

I laughed.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

Is it not very difficult to say you had a dream about the Prophet because you would have no reference to say what he looked like. You would be guessing it was the Prophet.

Well, I've heard of people having dreams where they just saw him as a glow of light but knew it was him because he talked to them.

DinoBot wrote:

Plus, if someone prays to a false god, say Lord Shiva, to save their child from an illness and the child is saved, does this prove the exsistance of Shiva ?

This has already been discussed on this forum I believe. In the Quran, God describes Himself as being the Most Merciful and it is this mercy that makes Him grant the wishes of someone asking out of sincerity. I believe that this sincerity is what counts for the moment that that person is praying to God (even if it is indirectly).

Schuhart wrote:

I know we’re circling

I'm dizzy at this stage.

Schuhart wrote:

If God speaks in your head you are a prophet. If, instead, he communicates by appearing in your dream (or sends you an email for that matter), that’s achieving the same result, but somehow permitted.

First of all, He's not going to send you an e-mail so let's not take the micky.

As for the dreams thing, I think it's to do with the difference between the waking world and the world of dreams. I understand that the soul may travel in ways that our body cannot while we sleep and provides somewhat of an explanation for why people may sometimes see the future in their dreams as their soul is not bounded by time and space in the same way that their bodies are.

And I know you can't see the difference between someone being contacted by God in some way in a dream and being talked to whilst awake but I guess we're just going to have to leave it at that for now (as I stated previously).

Schuhart wrote:

Something that pretends to ‘prove’ God actually turns out to be an extra thing that requires faith – as in saying ‘God has to allow everything to happen so, by definition, he makes coincidences happen’.

It's not like that. At least not in my experiences. I'm not talking about something like you pray to God because you can't find your keys early in the morning and you're late. That's not to say that I think that it's not God that makes you find your car keys (whether you pray to Him for help in that situation or not) but just that it's obviously quite hard to prove that it wasn't a coincidence. A skeptic could even go as far to say as the prayer that a believer performed put their mind in a state of calm thereby allowing them to better remember where they had misplaced their keys etc etc.

The kind of experience I'm talking about is the kind of thing that would freak anyone out... even you Schuhart. At this point, I feel really tempted to tell you of my experience but I wanted to keep it private. I'll try to think of another one in the meantime but it won't have the same effect as the one I'm talking about.

...after clicking submit...
Got one!

Once, I promised a friend that I would send a box of school books of his over in the post because he was traveling by plane and couldn't afford to take them all with him (because of the extra weight). Anyway, I procrastinated in sending them over a good bit (it's a problem of mine) but when I eventually got round to it, I couldn't find one of the most important books. Then I remembered a situation where I had to change a flat tire in the middle of the night and I had taken out the box of books and put them on the street to get access to the spare tire. I remember being so worried that I had lost the book on the street without noticing or something. I sent an e-mail to my friend telling him that I would soon be sending over the books but that I couldn't find that book and was so sorry for losing it.

Anyway, about 3 days later, I had a dream that a mutual friend of ours called me on the phone and told me not to worry because he had the book. I remember waking up feeling relieved for a moment in those first few moments you usually have before you realise it was a dream but then I did realise it was just a dream and remember feeling so disappointed. Then, a few hours later, my friend (the owner of the books) called me from abroad and told me not to worry about the book I thought I had lost because he had given it to our mutual friend! Phew!!

Like I said, that's not quite as eerie as that other experience but you get the picture about the kind of things I'm talking about.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

First of all, He's not going to send you an e-mail so let's not take the micky.

I am taking the mickey, but there's a point to it. I know we've touched on questions of openess before, but it honestly requires a degree of mind partitioning to discount the divine email while regarding the divine dream implant as utterly in tune with the nature of the universe.

the_new_mr wrote:

Like I said, that's not quite as eerie as that other experience but you get the picture about the kind of things I'm talking about.

Indeed, and you'll appreciate that a whole literature exists about dreams and what they signify. If you decide to trace every little twitch back to God, then that what it will mean to you.

the_new_mr

You know, after I'd made the post and went to bed, I realised that the example I wrote really wasn't a very good one as it doesn't necessarily show any obvious connection with God (such as prayer beforehand or something like that). I was too tired to get up again and post that . Anyway, you can at least take it as a good level of the kind of eerieness (if that's a word) for the kind of experiences I'm talking about. And I'll try to remember another experience other than the one I want to keep private that seems a bit more obvious.

Schuhart

Inspiration comes from many sources. As I see it, chiefly from other people. But picking a line from our old mate Bruno

God is not exhausted by creation or by revelation. He does not cease to speak.

I, naturally, interpret that in the sense that we are collectively writing the revelation, and we’re not finished by a long shot. Dreams, coincidence, chance and wild inspiration do play a part in that. I think the difference is a theist sees the destination as already written i.e. there’s a fully finished God waiting at the end of the rainbow, pulling us towards him. I just see us as making our own luck as we go along.

the_new_mr wrote:

And I'll try to remember another experience other than the one I want to keep private that seems a bit more obvious.

I’d suggest that if some alarm bell is making you want to keep it private, you are probably right to listen and keep it secret. You know yourself that, unless its next week’s Lotto numbers, it’s probably not going to convince me anyway.

Incidently, I’m convinced it has to do with a woman. In which case, I’m sure she feels you're a gift from God too.:)

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

This has already been discussed on this forum I believe. In the Quran, God describes Himself as being the Most Merciful and it is this mercy that makes Him grant the wishes of someone asking out of sincerity. I believe that this sincerity is what counts for the moment that that person is praying to God (even if it is indirectly).

Are you saying that other gods like shiva or Gaia are all a form of Allah :eek:
So I don't actually have to pray to Allah, as long as my prayer is done with sincerity to any god it will be answered ?

That is news to me and sounds more like Bahi faith than Islam. Where does it say this in Quran ?

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

I’d suggest that if some alarm bell is making you want to keep it private, you are probably right to listen and keep it secret. You know yourself that, unless its next week’s Lotto numbers, it’s probably not going to convince me anyway.

I know it won't convince you (well, it might... it is one eerie story) but you will at least see the kind of thing I'm on about and not just something that could easily be brushed off as pure coincidence (such as finding the car keys).

That reminds me, I once read a cool one-liner. It said, why are your car keys always in the last place you look? Because you found them

Schuhart wrote:

Incidently, I’m convinced it has to do with a woman. In which case, I’m sure she feels you're a gift from God too.

And incidentally, you're wrong

DinoBot wrote:

Are you saying that other gods like shiva or Gaia are all a form of Allah :eek:
So I don't actually have to pray to Allah, as long as my prayer is done with sincerity to any god it will be answered ?

No, I'm not saying that and I can't answer that. It's way beyond my knowledge. I know that there is no God but God Himself (Allah) and I believe that anything that is granted to anyone is because He allows it to happen or makes it happen (which, in essence, is the same thing but has a subtle difference when discussing the idea of fate).

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote:

No, I'm not saying that and I can't answer that. It's way beyond my knowledge. I know that there is no God but God Himself (Allah) and I believe that anything that is granted to anyone is because He allows it to happen or makes it happen (which, in essence, is the same thing but has a subtle difference when discussing the idea of fate).

I get your point. If all is from Allah then ALL must be from Allah even when good things happen to unbelivers.

It is however a circular argument. And a way of avoiding the question.

Because the action of granting the prayers to someone who is praying to a false god will only strengthen their views that their god is real. Cant see why Allah would want to do such a thing ? (and I know the answer, Allah does as he pleases, a christian would answer "God moves in mysteries ways" :-)

InFront

As the_new_mr said, it's not really for us to describe God's actions towards non-Muslims. But we do know that He is Ar-Rahim (the merciful), and He is Ar-Rahman (the compassionate). So who are we then to dictate the extent of his mercy? remember the hadith qudsi where we read what is translated to mean "my mercy prevails over my wrath". (Link - Hadith Qudsi One)

Anyway, it is impossible to be sure about how Allah responds to non-Muslims, but do we really want to go dismissing his mercy towards them?

the_new_mr

Yes. And to illustrate this point further, we are told in a hadith that if mercy could be divided into 100 parts, God gave the earth one part and left 99 for Himself.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Hajj/1427/ShowersofMercy/01.shtml

Dontico

InFront wrote:

It is impossible to know the mind of God, so what you say is possible. He does say positive things about the Christians and Jews, people of the book, in the Qur'an. I don't think there is any doubt that Christians and Jews are closer to Allah and to Islam than atheists, for example.

not an expert on islam but assuming its very simular to christianity, i would imagine it wouldnt really matter what faith you are (depending on ones interpretation of the bible).
i would promote the idea that an atheist would be closer to God than a christian if the atheist does good deeds and the christian doesnt do much.

and now for my favourite bible qoute, which i like to pull at any debate i can.
john 3:18
"Listen to me my children, do not worship God through word or tounge but through deed and truth".

and to address what the OP is saying,
what are the chance of me marrying a muslim woman?

InFront

Dontico wrote:

i would promote the idea that an atheist would be closer to God than a christian if the atheist does good deeds and the christian doesnt do much.

Anyone who lives their lives doing good deeds must surely be close to God, even if they do not know it, they are acting favourably by doing a good service and staying on the right path. We cannot know in reality, however, how Allah deals with this issue Himself, it was never revealed to us.

I just meant that Christians and Jews are given special recognition in the Qur'an and I think it is fair to assume that they live closer to God than an atheist who rejectes God, all things being equal (that is to say, disregarding good deeds).

This is illustrated very well by your quote out of the bible. I wouldn't agree with the "do not worship God through word or tongue..." piece, because in Islam these things are required, but the second part is one that is completely compatible with Islam: "...but through deed and truth". So we have things in common.

and to address what the OP is saying,
what are the chance of me marrying a muslim woman?

I'm not sure I understand the question, are you asking if you would have to become Muslim or could there be a dual-ceremony? You're a guy if I remember correctly:) so would really need to be a Muslim to marry a Muslim woman in the first place, so I don't think the issue of a sort of dual ceremony would arise.

Dontico

InFront wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the question, are you asking if you would have to become Muslim or could there be a dual-ceremony? You're a guy if I remember correctly:) so would really need to be a Muslim to marry a Muslim woman in the first place, so I don't think the issue of a sort of dual ceremony would arise.

ah dam it. Iranian women, the ultimate goal.

the_new_mr

Dontico wrote:

ah dam it. Iranian women, the ultimate goal.

What do you mean?