Boot Camps for Young Offenders

ballooba

Dontico wrote:

why? seems odd.

Adding polls to a thread stifles real debate. People also vote before they have actually considered the topic in full. Polls are more suited to somewhere like After Hours.

I do think the idea is a good one. A little bit of 'outside the box' thinking would do the country good.

I see Gormanston has been chosen as a new site for the storage of some of the eVoting machines. This had been mentioned along with Kilworth as a potential site for a YOs institution. I'm not quite sure what happens at Gormanston these days. There was a national flight training school proposed there for the Air Corps at one stage. I've been on the rifle range there, there was warnings all over the place not to go near the shooting ranges. All in all, it's a pretty cool place, with all the small planes etc.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Please, read the whole thread before replying!
This is unbelievable!

Oddly enough I did. I just feel that Ireland is a different situation to those countries that have tried and failed. I guess that wasn't worth noticing in response to my post..

ballooba wrote:

Sorry, Edited.

I'll fill those in who haven't read the thread. Military style boot camps have been proven ineffective. It's in the very first post. The theme continues throughout the thread. The same first post details a High Intensity Training programme that has been found somewhat effective in the UK.

Proven ineffective in countries with a far different society to ours. We don't yet have the extreme level of problems that those other countries have, and to throw away this idea simply because other countries failed doesn't make sense. At least give it a trial period in which to fail, rather than dismissing it immediately.

I wonder what would happen if people stopped trying new ideas simply because someone else had tried and failed?

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

Personally, I think the need is there for some form of solution. Whether this is it, I don't know. However, Ireland doesn't suffer from the gang history and availablity of guns as in other countries like the US or the UK, where this has been tried and failed. In Ireland, this may be just enough to either "shock" these kids/teens into awareness, or at least instill some manner of self-respect.

Apologies, I did actually miss the above part. I was distracted by ImEddieHobbes or however he spells it. Guilty of my own charge.

What is different about the Irish situation that makes you think the Military Style Approach would work here? You mention guns being more readily available in the UK. Not so sure if this is true?
Ireland does have lots of gangs too.

The thing is that most comparisons of this scheme have been made with the US, and with the UK.

The US has a long standing society that has grown up around its gangs. The gangs are little communities in themselves, almost a family for those offenders to return to. An environment that encourages crime, since thats what their purpose is. The availability of guns also encourages crime, since it boosts a persons confidence to have one. To have the ability to snuff out a problem with a squeze of a trigger.

In the UK, while not to the same level of the US, also has a large problem with gangs. More established than what we have here. Maybe its the larger population. And firearms are available in the UK, alot more easily than here in Ireland. Perhaps I'm off the mark here, but I would think there is alot more familiarity with firearms in the UK. Even access to Airguns which have the capacity to harm people, is more prevelant in the UK.

(I believe the accessibility to firearms and other dangerous weapons is alot easier to get in the UK as opposed to Ireland. I also believe that access to these weapons encourages gangs or youths to engage in crime)

For my own part, I believe that the gang problems here in Ireland are nowhere as established as in the UK, or the US. We have the chance to stop problems with the gangs before it sprawls out of control. While this Camp answer may not be the best choice, it does provide a possibility of improvement.

Afterall, whats the alternative? That we sit on our asses, watch the gangs increase in size, and slowly force our society into the same problems that the US experiences? Nothing we have in place at the moment is making enough of an impact to resolve the issue. Perhaps drastic measures are needed now. Now, not later. Not after the problem has evolved past our ability to prevent it.

ballooba

I don't think having less gun crime and less gangs is going to lend kids better to military style drills.

You ask "what's the alternative?".

When kids are ending up in YOs they have already been failed by the system. We need to think about what is influencing these kids to get involved in crime and intervene. There are a huge number of factors at play there.

One popular belief is that if kids have a positive focus that they are less likely to stray. I always found the scheme with the horses in Ballymun very interesting. Boxing is a popular sport in a lot of disadvantaged areas and gets a lot of young people off the streets.

edit:- Just saw an interesting quote:

Martin Cahill AKA The General wrote:

Reform school was my primary school, St. Patrick's Institution my secondary school, and Mountjoy my university - they taught me everything I know.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

I don't think having less gun crime and less gangs is going to lend kids better to military style drills.

I don't believe I said a military style boot camp. Even the earlier posts from other people talk about a non-military style boot camp. TBh, when I think of these sort of camps, I think of something along the lines of that film the "Gridiron Gang", with more of an emphasis on education, and skill learning. But I do believe that discipline is a key factor, and something that needs to be applied to these people. In many ways, I think one of the reasons these people repeat is because there is no penalty to what they do.

You ask "what's the alternative?".

Yup. And I'm not asking for whats already in place, and failing... What programmes out there at the moment, are working and working in decent numbers?

When kids are ending up in YOs they have already been failed by the system. We need to think about what is influencing these kids to get involved in crime and intervene. There are a huge number of factors at play there.

Sure.... I sortof agree. They've been failed by society. Or rather they themselves failed society. They failed to live within the boundaries that their society has set them, and fail to see the consequences as being enough of a hazard. I don't commit crime because I don't want to go to jail. I don't want my freedom revoked, and a pernmament record being created on it. For me, thats enough. For other's, there needs to be alternative ways of disabusing them of the notion to commit crime, not just once but more than once.

One popular belief is that if kids have a positive focus that they are less likely to stray. I always found the scheme with the horses in Ballymun very interesting. Boxing is a popular sport in a lot of disadvantaged areas and gets a lot of young people off the streets.

edit:- Just saw an interesting quote:

All of which is comendable, but we're talking about reform on a larger scale. This isn't about isolating individual pockets of problems, but dealing with this countrywide. Or at least I thought that this was about that? Each of the examples you gave are limited in size. Perhaps I'm wrong in believing that?

The problem I see is that most of the answers I see are aimed at small groups. The programmes would deal with a small number of offenders, in a very specific area. It wouldn't affect the whole country. Are there any programmes in place or proposed that would deal with this problem on a countrywide basis?

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

But I do believe that discipline is a key factor, and something that needs to be applied to these people. In many ways, I think one of the reasons these people repeat is because there is no penalty to what they do.

Your mention of discipline and scare tactics gave me the impression that you were talking about a strict military style regime.

Deleted User wrote:

Yup. And I'm not asking for whats already in place, and failing... What programmes out there at the moment, are working and working in decent numbers?

I'm saying that for alternatives we should definitely look at how our YO institutions work but also solutions to the broader problem.

Deleted User wrote:

Sure.... I sortof agree. They've been failed by society. Or rather they themselves failed society.

These aren't adults, so they aren't completely responsible for their own actions. I don't think they should be fully responsible either. I recommend a look at Structuration Theory and the relationship between Structure and Action. It raises interesting questions:
Do your actions determine your environment?
Does your environment determine your actions?

Deleted User wrote:

All of which is comendable, but we're talking about reform on a larger scale. This isn't about isolating individual pockets of problems, but dealing with this countrywide.

The question of youth programmes and specifically youth cafes was raised on the recent RTE Questions and Answers programme dedicated to young people. The minister actually mentioned the boxing clubs as something that has brought a lot of benefit.

People in the audience were criticising the amount of money allocated to sports. He mentioned that money is being allocated for youth schemes around the country. The point I'm making is that we should look at how this money could be best spent in disadvantaged areas. Both on sport and youth clubs.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Your mention of discipline and scare tactics gave me the impression that you were talking about a strict military style regime.

Scare Tactics? I don't believe I said anything about scare tactics. I believe in the need for discipline to be enforced upon these individuals. I feel that they need to learn some self-respect. I also believe that there needs to be some penalty involved for them breaking the rules. I believe in a strict system, but not a military style one.

These aren't adults, so they aren't completely responsible for their own actions. I don't think they should be fully responsible either. I recommend a look at Structuration Theory and the relationship between Structure and Action.

Sure, they're adults. From the moment, they were first "processed" they became adults. This is about repeat offenders. They've already passed the level of most kids/teens that don't engage in such crime. They were responsible enough to commit the crime in the first place, or the second place, or the third place etc.

Sorry, we obviously have very different feelings about this. I probably have a more strict viewpoint when it comes to these individuals. To me their actions have shown how responsible they are, and that they need to prove to me through their own actions in the future. They themselves have defined how society & us should react to them, since they didn't want to be treated as "normal" kids/teens.

It raises interesting questions:
Do your actions determine your environment?
Does your environment determine your actions?

A bit of both, actually. Cause and affect. But I don't believe that you can throw away all responsibility for your actions, simply because of your environment. I've known people from drug-addled parents who went on to have successful lives, and people from very decent families turn into absolute scum. We have the ability to chose who we want to be.

However, if the first few steps you make in that decision involve crime & getting caught, you're pretty much in trouble to repeat. At least until there's something in place that offers you a chance to learn something different.

People in the audience were criticising the amount of money allocated to sports. He mentioned that money is being allocated for youth schemes around the country. The point I'm making is that we should look at how this money could be best spent in disadvantaged areas. Both on sport and youth clubs.

Which is fine, and I have no problem with any of that. Really, I don't. However, I look at the way our society has evolved over the last 15 years, (I'm turning 30 btw) and I don't like the way its gone. I've seen many youth initiatives/schemes over the years, with little or no impact. Although some individuals have improved, and thats a success in itself. And yet, it seems not to change the overall groupings.

Its funny in a way. I grew up in Athlone, which was rough enough in its own way, and yet I never felt as uncomfortable as I do now walking through most towns at night. It never felt like there was the level of gang & youth problems that seem so common these days. When I was a teen it was the travellers ("settled" travellers mostly) that were seem to cause trouble, but thats mostly a thing of the past. Instead its the "other" youths that are the mainstream offenders.

And I have to wonder whats happened? I can look to changes in society, how parents work longer hours, more money available etc. And these youth programmes you talk about above were present/available when I was a teen, so what affect have they really had on our society? This isn't a dig at you or these programmes. I just believe that we need something more effective and more encompassing of all the Youths in this country to prevent us having the same issues as the US and other countries.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

Scare Tactics? I don't believe I said anything about scare tactics.

Deleted User wrote:

In Ireland, this may be just enough to either "shock" these kids/teens into awareness, or at least instill some manner of self-respect.

Shock/Scare?

Deleted User wrote:

Sure, they're adults. From the moment, they were first "processed" they became adults.

They're under 18, that's why they're classified as YOs. People can do stupid things when they're young. Whatever you view point on cannabis, you can't judge David Cameron on what he did when he was 16. He was only a kid.

Deleted User wrote:

I've known people from drug-addled parents who went on to have successful lives, and people from very decent families turn into absolute scum. We have the ability to chose who we want to be.

Yes, but you have a greater chance of straying if you come from a **** environment. People can through their Actions seek to change the Structure. It is however very difficult to go on your own and do this. By distinguishing yourself from your peer group you risk alienating yourself and at a certain point you will have to cut yourself off. This is especially difficult when you have all the other pressures of being a teen thrown into the mix.

In areas of the inner city (Dublin) the uptake of third level education can be as low as 1 in 20. This is well below the national average.

Deleted User wrote:

And these youth programmes you talk about above were present/available when I was a teen, so what affect have they really had on our society?

Some of them are not very well designed. I have been involved in youth programmes where the kids are in the activities for 2 hours or whatever after school, they then go out playing soccer or whatever unsupervised and are exposed to negative influences.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Shock/Scare?

Personally I think thats a bit of a stretch. The idea is to shock them out of the mentality they enter the institution with, not to scare them.

IMO they won't respond to fear since the reason the act all tough is out of the greater fear of their comrades. If anything fear with just push them deeper into the personality they've developed. Seek the comfortable old self.

They're under 18, that's why they're classified as YOs. People can do stupid things when they're young. Whatever you view point on cannabis, you can't judge David Cameron on what he did when he was 16. He was only a kid.

There's a bit of a difference between mugging someone and smoking a joint. You'd have to lock up most the country if hash was properly enforced.

No, when they decide to repeat the crime they lose the status of kids, until they decide to rejoin society. We protect our kids, whereas these people have decided that they don't need protection. Until I see them acting like any other kids and not commiting crimes, I'll not treat them as innocents.

Yes, but you have a greater chance of straying if you come from a **** environment. People can through their Actions seek to change the Structure. It is however very difficult to go on your own and do this. By distinguishing yourself from your peer group you risk alienating yourself and at a certain point you will have to cut yourself off. This is especially difficult when you have all the other pressures of being a teen thrown into the mix.

Exactly, hence the reason why a camp removed from their mini-society would be of the most help to them. they would be removed from all things familiar, and by their circumstances be forced to seek other answers. Perhaps it would turn out that groups would form within a camp, but they would be groups monitored all the time by professionals, and less likely to dabble in mischief.

In areas of the inner city (Dublin) the uptake of third level education can be as low as 1 in 20. This is well below the national average.

Third level? I'd be more concerned with the drop outs from secondary school. You can get many jobs with a leaving cert.

Some of them are not very well designed. I have been involved in youth programmes where the kids are in the activities for 2 hours or whatever after school, they then go out playing soccer or whatever unsupervised and are exposed to negative influences.

Again, thats part of the problem. Look. These kids are being helped in their own areas. They're exposed to their own peers the whole time, and when that time is over they revert back to the persona they've created at home, with their friends, whatever. By leaving them in that area, you're working against the system that they've built up around themselves. And thats not going to work except for kids/teens that are actively looking for help.

For those that are hostile to help, that are comfortable with their friends, and comfortable with offending multiple times, you need to remove them from all the things that encourage them to commit crime. Remove them from their friends, their family, where they live, where they go to school, etc. Remove them from the very things that constantly remind them that they can't be more than who they already are.

Then offer them an alternative. Or rather pack them up, ship them off to an institution like this camp, and see if they're capable of learning.

This camp thing might be a huge mistake. It could flop in a major fashion. OR it could be successful beyond our dreams. At this moment in time, we have nothing to go one except that some other countries have tried this and failed. Personally, considering the way things are going, its definetly worth a shot.

ballooba

Well, I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet to a certain extent with regard to the alternative YO institutions.

Your views seem centred on repeat offenders. I would take a more hollistic view.

I also maintain that kids are not fully responsible for their actions no matter what they do. Sometimes that can be a difficult pill to swallow. If you watch Blood Diamond and the child soldiers, kids can do terrible terrible things given the wrong influences.

Situations like the two young guys who killed Garda Anthony Tighe and Garda Michael Padden would make you wonder. How did they get to the stage where they could bring themselves to do something like that.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

I also maintain that kids are not fully responsible for their actions no matter what they do. Sometimes that can be a difficult pill to swallow.

True. However, I don't think kids of thirty years ago are like kids today. Kids nowadays are alot more.... mature (not the right word, but I'll edit if i find a better one). They're streetwise to an extent that was rare when I was growing up. With the effect of the media, the changes in the home, and more responsibility (and free time) being thrust upon them, I think many are forced into bad situations which are hard to get out of.

Afterall, when I was growing up, I finished school, was free until 6, had dinner, then homework, and if i wasn't home by 9, my mum would be reaching for my dad's belt (to hit me, that is, before the snide remarks appear). And that was a rare thing. And I knew that if I ever really got into trouble my parents would be there to help.

I think this is something very lacking in our society now, and its not a good change. Parents don't look after their kids we well as before, and kids are allowed alot more freedom than they should have. And lastly, any real degree of punishment on kids is dangerous for just about anybody, including authority figures like parents, teachers, etc.

And that really needs to stop, but I don't believe it will. Its the way our society has changed. For the worse.

If you watch Blood Diamond and the child soldiers, kids can do terrible terrible things given the wrong influences.

Err, haven't seen it yet. That Titanic dude bugs the hell out of me.

I believe that circumstances can be shown that a kid was forced into a situation, or something spiralled out of control. However, when it comes to "normal" western children/teens mugging or killing somebody, they've passed the grounds for acceptable forgiveness. Their action has pushed them beyond the region of treating them as kids. They've performed acts that adults do. They should face the same consequences that adults receive for them. And I believe most teens both on the low and high end are intelligent enough to know what they're doing, and also thats its wrong in the eyes of the law. TV shows them every aspect of life. It also shows them regularly what actions are illegal.

Situations like the two young guys who killed Garda Anthony Tighe and Garda Michael Padden would make you wonder. How did they get to the stage where they could bring themselves to do something like that.

There was a bank robbery about two weeks ago in the Douglas Branch of the TSB (i think), where a guy just walked in and robbed the place. I don't really know the details, except he got out with 40k in cash.

Anyway, I was thinking the other day, the pure desparation that must be needed to do such a thing. After all, skilled/experienced crinimals wouldn't go for 40k and it got me thinking what it would take to make me do something similiar. So he was probably someone who had either no previous convictions or one or two small things behind him. And I thought it out, and how I would go about it. I'm quite strapped for cash at the moment, but not to that extent. I don't think I would ever be... to that extent.

And yet I have to be aware that the possibility exists that I could turn that way... Mind boggling.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

With the effect of the media, the changes in the home, and more responsibility (and free time) being thrust upon them, I think many are forced into bad situations which are hard to get out of.

I think that might be an argument for looking at the structures.

Deleted User wrote:

And I knew that if I ever really got into trouble my parents would be there to help.

It's an important thing to have. For some kids it's a grandparent. For some it's a neighbour. For others theres is no one.

Deleted User wrote:

Err, haven't seen it yet. That Titanic dude bugs the hell out of me.

More suited to the film forum, but go see it. It's an excellent film. Leonardo DiCaprio is great in it, especially the accent. Titanic was the worst thing that ever happened to him.

Deleted User wrote:

I believe that circumstances can be shown that a kid was forced into a situation, or something spiralled out of control. However, when it comes to "normal" western children/teens mugging or killing somebody, they've passed the grounds for acceptable forgiveness.

I hate to keep referring back to the example of the two Gardaí on the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway, but it is the example that sticks out most in my mind and I pass the scene of that incident every day.

I've pasted below an Irish Independent article on the structures under which one of those children grew up. It's an extreme example but it's an example of where society failed him before he failed society. BTW the driver of the car was 16. He was supposed to be in custody at the time of the accident. The car they were in was travelling at 120mph.

Irish Independent 18/03/2002 wrote:

Teen joyrider was in care of State
THE 15-year-old joyrider who was a passenger in the car that killed gardai Michael Padden and Anthony Tighe on Sunday morning was in the official care of the health board at the time of the incident and was due to be placed in a probation hostel.

The Irish Independent has learned that in 1996, when the boy was 10, the Eastern Health Board applied for a care order to be placed on him because there were "serious concerns" about his family environment. His mother has a history of drug abuse and was deemed incapable of caring for him.

Under the Child Care Act 1991, a health board can apply for a care order if it considers a child is being physically or sexually abused, or if his/her health or welfare is being neglected.

Once such an order has been granted, the child becomes the responsibility of the State until the age of 18. The order can be rescinded before then if the health board decides the child is no longer at risk.

Lawyers who work with juvenile offenders say the State had an obligation to protect the boy and society at large.

"There is no doubt that this child was the responsibility of the State and has been for the last six years," Mary-Ellen Ring, barrister and child-care expert, said.

"He should have been properly supervised to avoid him ending up in the situation he did.

"In the same way that many people have asked what sort of parents would let their kids out in the middle of the night to commit these sorts of acts, we have to ask the same question about the State. It just shows what a sorry situation we're in if even the State itself cannot look after the children entrusted to its care."

The boy first came to the attention of the authorities at the age of five. Records show that he was absent for the majority of his first two years at school. When he was taken into care, he spent three years in a residential centre.

However, after his release and despite the ongoing existence of the care order, a decision was made to return him to the family home, where he is believed to have been living until last weekend.

Before the events of Sunday, he was facing a number of charges relating to car theft and failure to attend court. He was due before the Children's Court at the end of this month. The health board had decided that, following his appearance in court, he would be returned to temporary care in the form of a night hostel.

Last night, a health board official said that "exhaustive attempts" were made to help the boy from an early age, but that the board was not allowed to "watch his every move night and day".

Gemma O'Doherty

PCPhoto

Just finished reading this book on crime in Ireland. Its just out and called 'Minor Offences, Ireland's Cradle of Crime' by a guy called Tom Tuite.
Unusually it focuses on juvenile crime and shows where the crims start out. A real glimpse at the darker side of Irish youth, impartial and good page turner to boot. Here's a useful link with more info.
http://www.gillmacmillan.ie/Ecom/Library3.nsf/CatalogByCategory/D8AF394F9C16B1D48025726D004722E5?OpenDocument