Need for wars by Israel

imeddyhobbs

In a previous thread i started i pointed out that i bycott Israeli goods.I belive Israel is a terrorist state(in my opinion).They can do what they want in the region and claim that they do it for the security of Isreal.
At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon to clear lands that have landmines and (some of its own) un-exploded bombs,whats the reason for this?why do they think that they have the right to go into another country and do this type of work?call me naieve if you like but i call that provocation!!even more to the point of why i am posting again about this issue is because now Israel feels the need to start pissing off the islam world by interfering with one of islams holyiest sites,the al aqsa mosque in Jerusalem,a city Israel illegaly occupies.
Israel has no rights to be in Jerusalem and it certainly has no legitimate right to be interfering with such sites,the last time Israel did "work" on the mosque they caused structural damage to it when part of a wall collapsed.Just a few years back Israel sent former warlord and prime minister Ariel Sharon to visit the site just to piss off the muslim world.
I would imagine in my naievity that if muslims feel safe to go into this building and that they dont WANT it to be changed then Israel should keep its bloodstained hands away from it and stop putting its citizens in danger by provoking radical muslims into doing disgusting things.Today at the mosque Israeli soldiers started firing rubber bullets at protesters that dont want any "work" done to this shrine,Israel feels the need so bad to "work" on this site that it fires rubber bullets at protesters!?imagine if the army or the garda here in Ireland started shooting at protesters of contraversial sites you know it would not happen!:mad:
The business of war must be bad in Israel at the moment,thats the only reason i can see why it would be provoking its enemys.

PS: Before anyone starts pointing out any side issues like if Israel is a terrorist state or if it illegally occupies Jarusalem or part of Jarusalem lets discuss if Israel is provoking its enemy and islam as a whole and putting its citizens in further danger

purple'n'gold

Israel is a bully, pure and simple. Israel is looked after by the USA who will allow it to do any thing it wants. Murder, torture, and invade other countries. You name it. Like all bullies who are looked after by a big friend, they will do as they please when they please. If the USA tired of them (it won’t happen) then you would see a different Israel.

Zambia

There you go in case anyone wants the story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346093.stm

HelterSkelter

imeddyhobbs wrote:

At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon

Do you have a link for this story?

Edit: This is the closest I could find. There seems to be a disagreement over whether the Israeli army crossed the border or not...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FF9AF073-9272-4F6E-AAE7-EFE04B360164.htm

cold_filter

Israel is in a tough position, and they dont always do the correct thing, but if police fired rubber bullets at those muppets in carrickmines/rossport maybe we could actually build something in this country. The mosque is on israeli land therefore it belongs to israel "occupying force or not" if the mosque collapsed and killed 500 muslims, there would be yet another jihad for israel letting the mosque get into such a state

imeddyhobbs

HelterSkelter wrote:

Do you have a link for this story?

Edit: This is the closest I could find. There seems to be a disagreement over whether the Israeli army crossed the border or not...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FF9AF073-9272-4F6E-AAE7-EFE04B360164.htm

Al jazeera is actually where i got it from,it was on their news on tuesday.

InFront

The mosque is on israeli land therefore it belongs to israel

That depends on whether you believe there is such a thing as Israel. Anyway, it comes under 'disputed territory'.

The Islamic Foundation of Ireland and the Clonskeagh Mosque, these are on Irish land. Do they belong to Ireland to block access in or out, or do with them as they wish? No, and Israel is supposed to be a 'liberal democracy', remember. Apart from their more obvious acts of terror, the government have been causing structural damage to the mosque for years as a deliberate taunt to the Palestinians.

oscarBravo

imeddyhobbs wrote:

Before anyone starts pointing out any side issues like if Israel is a terrorist state or if it illegally occupies Jarusalem or part of Jarusalem lets discuss if Israel is provoking its enemy and islam as a whole and putting its citizens in further danger

Starting a thread here doesn't give you the right to dictate the parameters of the discussion. Sure, it would be nice from a partisan perspective to baldly state a controversial opinion as fact and prevent others from discussing it, but if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

Sand

The Israeli archaelogical dig is occuring more than 50 meters away from the mosque and is a preliminary step to repairing/replacing a walkway that was apparently damaged in 2004. The outrage/hysteria generated in response is the stock response whipped up by various extremist groups - both jihadist and anti-israeli secularists. The Israelis have gone so far as to place cameras overlooking the work site which can be accessed via the internet 24 days in a touchingly naive attempt to reassure the concerned that theyre not knocking the mosque down.

Its naive because it assumes itll make any difference to the "IDF demolish Islamic holy site for laughs!!!!one111" propaganda. The mosque is built on the site of a biblical jewish temple - and there are hardline jewish elements which want to knock down the mosque and restore the original temple. The IDF/Israeli government prevents them so only a divine omnipotent being could figure out why theyd suddenly decide to damage the mosque for comedy value. Oh wait, I forgot - its because theyre just so damn evil. Yes, that explains it.

At the moment Israel is sending its army into parts of southern Lebanon to clear lands that have landmines and (some of its own) un-exploded bombs,whats the reason for this?why do they think that they have the right to go into another country and do this type of work?call me naieve if you like but i call that provocation!!

I cant actually, its probably against the charter. I can say your post is naive though. Id point out that reports dispute if the bulldozer [A bulldozer, not a full scale invasion tbh] was 2 meters on the Lebanese side or 2 meters on the Israeli side. The IDF says they stayed on their side of the line, that they radioed the Lebanese to ask them to stop shooting at the bulldozer and then returned fire. The Lebanse army says the bulldozer invaded their country and they shot at it.

Sounds like a hissy fit over nothing to be honest, and luckily no one died in the fighting because it would be a crappy thing to die over. It does remind me of that story from a few years back where the UN identified a mined area on the border and asked Hizbullah to clear it, Hizbullah told them it was on the Israeli side and to call the IDF. The UN asked the IDF to clear it, so the IDF sent out a bulldozer. Hizbullah shot the bulldozer with an RPG. The mines stayed in place. Everyone was a winner.

If the bulldozer was clearing mines - which apparently is the case - then shooting it up because it strays a few meters inside a line on the map is a bit of an over-reaction [not proportional even?]. Especially considering Lebanese complaints about the number of mines in the south. Surely clearing them, even by accident, is a GOOD thing?

Im aware though that none of the above will have the slightest impact on your views.

if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

Theres the whole cost/benefit ratio to be considered though. imeddyhobbs may feel that it is illegally occupied or that it isnt. It doesnt change the reality that it is held by Israel.

I have noticed though [I feel this is on topic as imeddyhobbs portrays the situation in Israel as that of unending one sided warmongering, and the reality seems a little more.....complex] that the Lebanese army siezed a truck carrying arms and ammunition intended for Hizbullah along the Israeli border. Hizbullah have demanded that the arms be returned to them.

Two points come from this imo - one, that there are threats [Hizbullah] along Israels border that Israel will be acting against and reacting to. Its not one sided aggression. Two, that the Lebanese government is acting to prevent arms reaching Hizbullah - this is a good thing, but its hard to say if its down to conflict between Hizbullah and the Lebanese government or if its more the Lebanese government determined to prevent Hizbullah from inciting another conflict with Israel.

Boston

Ive been meaning to say this for some time. Sands, you're one of the most level headed and rational posters on this forum. I'm actually serious. I find myself on threads like this scrolling down to find your posts to actual get a balanced and non emotive view point.

Padraig Mor

cold_filter wrote:

. The mosque is on israeli land [Jerusalem]

Not according to the UN and the official positions of every other country in the world - including the US.

imeddyhobbs

oscarBravo wrote:

Starting a thread here doesn't give you the right to dictate the parameters of the discussion. Sure, it would be nice from a partisan perspective to baldly state a controversial opinion as fact and prevent others from discussing it, but if anyone wants to challenge the assertion that Jerusalem is illegally occupied - and is prepared to back up their side of the story with facts - they're welcome to do so.

I asked politely if people would consider the main points of my thread,i did not restrict any potential
posters to talk about any points in the thread.You my friend are the dictator for telling me that i have no right to ask for preference

Victor

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

SeanW

Ok, why is everyone beating up on Israel, sure they aren't perfect, and I for one don't support them, but people who think the other middle Eastern governments are all nice, virtuous, peace loving people need to think again.

Required viewing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4561090291581225744 this piece from an American commentator Glenn Beck, who details the large volumes of anti-Jewish and anti-Western propoganda that Middle Eastern governments and government employees put out among their people.

If you wonder why there's so much threat of terrorism these days, a lot of it has to do with this.

It wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing about the repairs was all blown out of proportion by evil Islamist propogandists.

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?

oscarBravo

imeddyhobbs wrote:

I asked politely if people would consider the main points of my thread,i did not restrict any potential
posters to talk about any points in the thread.

You raised the points, then asked people not to discuss them until they'd first discussed the points you wanted them to discuss; in other words you attempted to shape the course of the discussion from the start.

imeddyhobbs wrote:

You my friend are the dictator for telling me that i have no right to ask for preference

Two things: first, you have the right to ask people not to discuss controversial points you initially raised, but - as I pointed out - they have every right to ignore that request and discuss them anyway. Second, calling anyone a dictator on this forum is against the charter, as is discussing the moderation of a thread in that thread. Smileys don't change that.

Back on topic.

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

I'm curious about this also.

wes

SeanW wrote:

Ok, why is everyone beating up on Israel, sure they aren't perfect, and I for one don't support them, but people who think the other middle Eastern governments are all nice, virtuous, peace loving people need to think again.

Required viewing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4561090291581225744 this piece from an American commentator Glenn Beck, who details the large volumes of anti-Jewish and anti-Western propoganda that Middle Eastern governments and government employees put out among their people.

If you wonder why there's so much threat of terrorism these days, a lot of it has to do with this.

It wouldn't surprise me if this whole thing about the repairs was all blown out of proportion by evil Islamist propogandists.

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?

Glenn Beck..... The guy is a bit of a joke imho. I wouldn't consider anything he is involved in, "required viewing". He is one of those commentators who has a simple agenda and justs recycles what other right wing commentators have said.

I think the following Dispatches documentary is far superior to anything by Beck. It actually does some investigative journalism in the Middle East. Here is a URL for more info:

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=483

It give a good insight into the propaganda in the Middle East against the US and Israel.

As for the Israel/Palestine mess its very complicated and quite frankly there is a lot of blame to go around.

Judt

InFront wrote:

That depends on whether you believe there is such a thing as Israel. Anyway, it comes under 'disputed territory'.

The Israeli Defence Forces have been asked by their neighboring colleagues on several occasions whether or not Israel is a real state. The Israeli Defence Forces gave them a resounding yes. Israel has guns, therefore Israel is.

The whole situation out there is a mess, but nobody is a good guy - the Israeli's have as much right to live in Israel as a Catholic has to live in Northern Ireland, and vice versa for the Palestinians. Figuring out a way for them all to live there without killing one another is the trick, but somebody born and bred in Israel has every right to live there.

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder. Surely you're not saying that you're so eager to see Israel besmirched that you'd wish that that did happen?

As for entering the grounds of the Mosque, the Israeli police have, as I recall, stepped in there only when really, really required, like when one of Israel's citizens went a bit postal and tried to blow the place up. As much as Israel might leave the Palestinians to themselves up there, when there's a life threatening riot...

As for the digging they're doing, Jerusalem is an ancient city, and a lot of stuff is built right on top of a lot of other stuff, so get over it.

imeddyhobbs

Judt wrote:

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder. Surely you're not saying that you're so eager to see Israel besmirched that you'd wish that that did happen?

You know i was going to put that point in about Israel clearing these lands of unexploded ordnance to protect kids but i did not want to bring any crude humor into the topic.Israel sends in gun ships to destroy a target in residential areas at will knowing that their are innocent people in that same building(including children)but they dont care about innocent people because no one is innocent in the eyes of the perpretator.So common is this abuse of human rights that they have a polite therm for it..collateral damage.
I cant belive that you belive that a group of people in Israel got together and decided that they have to clean up part of another country,a country that just beat them in a war!So now they want to go into this country again just in case some kids get hurt?
How many kids did they kill they the last time they went in?

imeddyhobbs

oscarBravo wrote:

Back on topic.

back on topic,just as i requested:)

imeddyhobbs

Victor wrote:

What does Hungary have to do with this thread (and no, it doesn't seem to make sense with 'hungry' either).

so i made one mistake,i hope you dont get stuck on it and have the ability to see past it

Judt

imeddyhobbs wrote:

You know i was going to put that point in about Israel clearing these lands of unexploded ordnance to protect kids but i did not want to bring any crude humor into the topic.Israel sends in gun ships to destroy a target in residential areas at will knowing that their are innocent people in that same building(including children)but they dont care about innocent people because no one is innocent in the eyes of the perpretator.So common is this abuse of human rights that they have a polite therm for it..collateral damage.
I cant belive that you belive that a group of people in Israel got together and decided that they have to clean up part of another country,a country that just beat them in a war!So now they want to go into this country again just in case some kids get hurt?
How many kids did they kill they the last time they went in?

Great, dodge my point - So Israel went into S. Lebanon to clear bombs, let's leave it at that for that point. As for the conflict itself, I seem to recall that one started with provocation from the other side of the border.

You're anti-Israel no matter what the circumstances, but as I've said before - it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, or who did what in the Middle East. What matters is trying to find a solution which will ensure no more kids have to die out there, let alone anyone else. Demanding that Israel hold up its hands and personally say sorry to everyone on the face of the earth beforehand is no way to conduct business. They aren't in an enviable position themselves.

InFront

Judt wrote:

The Israeli Defence Forces have been asked by their neighboring colleagues on several occasions whether or not Israel is a real state. The Israeli Defence Forces gave them a resounding yes. Israel has guns, therefore Israel is.

We all already know how Israel feels about its neighbours. If I didn't like my neighbours, I probably wouldn't go buy a house next door to them, but there you go, that's Zionism.

the Israeli's have as much right to live in Israel as a Catholic has to live in Northern Ireland, and vice versa for the Palestinians.

Yes well that's not what they say about Palestinians.

What is your opinion on their "nationality law", which enforces many Palestinian couples, married and living in east Jerusalem, to live either apart or else illegally together?
What about the identity card system, is that not obvious discrimination, would Catholic ID Cards have been tolerated in Northern Ireland in the 1980s?
What do you think about their laws regarding the movement of the Palestinians?
What about the refusal for many Palestinians to build houses in their districts?
And the fact that those who leave Jerusalem to study or work abroad lose any automatic right to their Jerusalem identity cards?
What about the constroction of the seperation wall? What does such a wall, designed to hermetically seal the occupied Palestinian West Bank territory remind you of?

I think your idea of "equal rights" is completely lost on that Government

This whole anti-Israel-on-everything position is a little tiresome. If Israel did cross into S. Lebanon to clear unexploded ordnance, great! If some kids got their legs blown off by an unexploded Israeli bomb then you'd be on here crying blue murder.

Ever since someone decided that there should be a state called Israel, it has had a history of provocation.
What better way to provoke an enemy than to cross your army into that another territory on the pretence of clearing mines of all things. What exactly is their sudden worry about mines? It wasn't so long ago they were putting them there. As the op asked, when did Israel start to worry about children?

As for the digging they're doing, Jerusalem is an ancient city, and a lot of stuff is built right on top of a lot of other stuff, so get over it.

There is more to it than digging. There is another article on this here

Judt

We all already know how Israel feels about its neighbours. If I didn't like my neighbours, I probably wouldn't go buy a house next door to them, but there you go, that's Zionism.

Yes, and all us PaddyMac's should move to Boston. Really, once that new world was discovered for us to move to we deserved what we got in our "homeland." You oversimplify the issue - tell me, after a good portion of continental Europe saw its Jewry wiped out and driven from their homes, where exactly were the Israeli's going to set up their shop? And tell me, where other than Israel would one consider to be the "homeland" of the Jews? Should we have taken a good bit of Germany, expelled the locals and expected them to take up shop there, instead?

The Israeli's don't like the arabs and the arabs don't like the Israeli's. As I keep saying, everyone needs to get past this point and on to "How do we live together?" Israel is far from an innocent party in all of this, but the fact is that there are over 7 million people living in the state of Israel who have as much a right to a life as anyone else. Yes Israel tramples on the rights of other people in order to maintain itself, but the alternative offered to them by the arabs is to be driven into the Med. It's an "Us or Them" situation for both sides, and nothing can come from that.

Yes Israel keeps the Palestinian people downtrodden, but then the Palestinian people wouldn't mind it if the shoe were on the other foot. Again, "Us or Them", and this needs to change - for both sides.

Israel is building a wall, quite markedly to keep another people out of its country. Not even the Israeli's will dispute that. But at the same time, 99.99% of school buses that spontaneously combust in Israel do so for a reason... Real Politik plays an element here. If people were crossing from Northern Ireland into the South and blowing up the 39 every morning, mightn't we tighten the border controls?

I say that the Israel question is one which cannot be answered by violence, but that is the situation that exists in that both sides see it as being a case of "Either we go or they go", not "We can live together." Make no mistake, the Palestinians and most arab states don't want to see Israel exist - they don't just hate the Israeli state, they hate the Jews and would be happy to "finish the job." It's easy when you don't have your back to the sea living in the lions den not to think like they do.

Both sides need to stop thinking like that - the arabs have a longer way to go than the Israeli's, I think. I think that Israel would be happy to live in peace without the fear of suicide bombers and the odd mass invasion on religous holidays. Israel exacerbates the situation by its actions, but the arabs have to give up on the idea that Israel needs to be destroyed, not worked with. That's the only way conflicts like this come to an end - in Ireland the British only ended their bloody conflict when they decided that dealing with the Irish would be better than killing us all off.

Apart from this compromise, in which we acknowledge that pretty much everyone has blood on their hands but forever arguing about the wording of apologies isn't going to get anywhere, what would be your solution to the problem? The disbandment of Israel?

purple'n'gold

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?
__________________
Saudi Arabia and Iran have oil, lots of it. So, we don’t boycott countries who sell commodities that we need. Israel on the other hand sells nothing that we cannot buy someplace else.

wes

purplengold wrote:

So for all the people who boycott Israel and whatever, I ask if you also boycott Saudi Arabia, Iran etc?
__________________
Saudi Arabia and Iran have oil, lots of it. So, we don’t boycott countries who sell commodities that we need. Israel on the other hand sells nothing that we cannot buy someplace else.

The world runs on oil. It would be impossible to boycott these countries. You wouldn't even know where the oil comes from. Also neither of these countries has invaded anyone recently and while Iran may very well fund terrorism against Israel, but then the US funds terrorists against them (there exiled in Iraq right now btw). Oh yeah and they killed there Democratically elected leader, that sounds like state sponsored terrorism to me. Then they put in place a dictator who murdered anyone who was a member of any democratic movements. Oh and when the revolution happened they protected that dictator instead of letting him pay for his crimes.

So why don't we boycott the US as well? They fund plenty of terrorism as well. How about the UK? They joined in on an illegal war with the US recently. Oh and how about Russia, Putin is up to all sorts of stuff.

I could go on and on and on here. If people are annoyed enough by what Israel did to the Palestinians they can boycott them all they want. If you want to boycott Iran and Saudi have fun with that. You won't be able to use anything that runs on oil and thats a hell of a lot more things than you think.

wes

Judt wrote:

You oversimplify the issue - tell me, after a good portion of continental Europe saw its Jewry wiped out and driven from their homes, where exactly were the Israeli's going to set up their shop? And tell me, where other than Israel would one consider to be the "homeland" of the Jews? Should we have taken a good bit of Germany, expelled the locals and expected them to take up shop there, instead?

Why did they set up shop in Palestine then? Why did they drive so many out? What about those who fled a war started by Israel? They aren't allowed to return are they. You seem to think its ok to punish the Palestinians for the crimes of Nazi Germany and thats exactly what happened.

So I ask you what right does anyone have to go into some else's country and take over? The answer is none. Plenty of Israeli's (the more hardcore Zionists to be fair) deny the existence of the Palestinian people, they even coined a incredibly racist phrase "A land without people, for a people without land". I have even heard such crap on American tv shows (an episode of Law and Order).

Now I am not saying the Israeli's should be driven into to the sea, but when the shoe was on the other foot they had no trouble carrying out overt terrorism and had no trouble driving people out of Palestine.

I don't envy there situation, there Grand Parents handed them a crappy situation.

Judt

wes wrote:

Why did they set up shop in Palestine then? Why did they drive so many out? What about those who fled a war started by Israel? They aren't allowed to return are they. You seem to think its ok to punish the Palestinians for the crimes of Nazi Germany and thats exactly what happened.

So I ask you what right does anyone have to go into some else's country and take over? The answer is none. Plenty of Israeli's (the more hardcore Zionists to be fair) deny the existence of the Palestinian people, they even coined a incredibly racist phrase "A land without people, for a people without land". I have even heard such crap on American tv shows (an episode of Law and Order).

Now I am not saying the Israeli's should be driven into to the sea, but when the shoe was on the other foot they had no trouble carrying out overt terrorism and had no trouble driving people out of Palestine.

I don't envy there situation, there Grand Parents handed them a crappy situation.

Hey, I never said the Zionists were right or wrong, I'm saying they were between a rock and a very hard place indeed and did what they did. Israel is a fact of life now, so you need to figure out a way to deal with the situation. A solution has not been forthcoming from the anti-Israel crowd.

wes

Judt wrote:

Hey, I never said the Zionists were right or wrong, I'm saying they were between a rock and a very hard place indeed and did what they did. Israel is a fact of life now, so you need to figure out a way to deal with the situation. A solution has not been forthcoming from the anti-Israel crowd.

To be fair a solution (a fair one) hasn't been presented by anyone. I agree there in a very bad situation, as are the Palestinians. I was just trying to point out there are elements in Israel that want to grab as much land as possible. Thankfully they seem to be out of power right now. Its a bad situation for all involved and a complicated one. Cooler heads need to prevail, but I really don't think any will.

Judt

wes wrote:

To be fair a solution (a fair one) hasn't been presented by anyone. I agree there in a very bad situation, as are the Palestinians. I was just trying to point out there are elements in Israel that want to grab as much land as possible. Thankfully they seem to be out of power right now. Its a bad situation for all involved and a complicated one. Cooler heads need to prevail, but I really don't think any will.

There are ultra-conservative elements in every country. Rolling around and saying "It'll never be..." is hardly the best way to deal with it. Indeed, if you consider it to be an unending situation then it might be best for you to simply ignore it, rather than have a go.

wes

Judt wrote:

There are ultra-conservative elements in every country. Rolling around and saying "It'll never be..." is hardly the best way to deal with it. Indeed, if you consider it to be an unending situation then it might be best for you to simply ignore it, rather than have a go.

I hardly consider it unending just incredibly difficult. Nothing is unending. Those elements have at times had quite a bit of sway, and they still do to a certain degree. Just look at some of the things the newest member of the ruling coalition, have said.