Ireland v France (Match Thread)

walrusgumble

at least there is still the championship its self to paly for. although england are a bag of s&*t so we wont be counting on them to beat france.

Sangre

kevpants wrote:

I completely agree about the mentality thing. I grew up in australia and the difference is startling. There's just a confidence and a desire to win instilled in them all. Their cockiness comes from their passion to win.

Their cockiness comes from the fact that they're historically a much, much better team.

BlitzKrieg

at least there is still the championship its self to paly for. although england are a bag of s&*t so we wont be counting on them to beat france.

If the french take the same defense they did with us england havnt got a chance....Johnny will never get a chance to put his boot to use.


On Boss over Stringer...I felt watching it that against the defence the French presented Stringer was sorely missed, Boss took far too long at each rook which gave the french too much time to get the pressure on. Stringer despite his flaws was very good at giving quick ball.

In fact its quite clear of the two teams that went onto the pitch...the french were the only ones who had a plan to exploit the sudden weaknessess that Ireland had (B.OD and Stringer).

It wasnt till the second half that ireland started playing the game the way they should without those two players (keep ball in hand and hit them, rinse and repeat till you make a hole.)

walrusgumble

what a disappointing week for irish sport, between the muppets n san marino and the game to today, it aint gonna be a pleasant week at work this week

Sengoku79

Realistically if any soccer ref made the comments Walsh did in the lead up to a match he would have pulled, but bearing that in mind Ireland were poor on the whole.

Stringer was badly missed, more so than BOD, as we rely on the quick ball from the breakdown, which Boss cannot supply and it left us too flat to make any decent impact.

gubbie

awhir wrote:

omfg im so pissed i feel like im gona cry.

I did I've only ever had positive tears... we were just so close...

Kinetic^

We were ****e and that's the end of it. ****E!!!!!!!!!!!

iwincosimcool

I bet we still win the tournament! **** THE TRIPLE CROWN

Chucky the tree

i dont think we have any chance to win the tournement. Even if france lose to england, they will have a much better points difference i would say.

BlitzKrieg

Italy is our last match (and it was France's first right?)

And we have scotland before them...so not to sound harsh on these two teams...but if France do get beaten in either of the next two matches (which I doubt but)....we will have a target to squeeze out of both of those teams seeing as they are the two weakest in the league.

crybaby

i think all of the talk of a "losing irish mentality" in this thread is completley inapplicable to this squad. if anything this squad is probably one of the first set of collective Irish athletes to have a winning mentality none of them are happy with hanging in there with the big teams anymore they all know how good they are and how they threw it away yesterday, accusing them of garbage like that though I find disrespectful and insulting to the players who deserve more credit, criticize their performances all you want but to think they just want to give it a lash and then go out on the piss is rubbish

all we can do now is hope to win our next 3 games and that France have one of their notorious bad days against England, Scotland or Wales, points difference will be fairly even I would imagine

Diamondmaker

Anyone who is suggestibng that we should have kicked for the line s has not got a clue. Yes in hind sight it is likley that we would have been able to kill the clock in the corner but this is ifs and buts. Rugby like any sport is a % game and in this situation takking the 3 points offers better odds of retaining a lead.

To defend a 4 point lead with 2 minutes to go is far far more attaiable than to defend a 1 pointer. A drop goal is practically impossible to defend against, especially if the foprwards are good enough ( which they were ) to set up good position for the OH in the pocket.

Once in the pocket and there is a clean pass, its all down to the OHs bottle and no defence will rush up fast enough on a well placed OH.

A 4 poit difference is very easy ( relative ) to defend. All you haved to do is make tackles, you are in control of you own destiny when you just have to make all your tackles for 2 minutes.

Also losing mentality comments are utter nonsense. They came out and DOMINATED that 2nd half. The try was conceded in a moment of maddness they were deserved winners over the 2 halbves and the French who seemed to have conceded the victory towards the end were very grateful and lucky winners

Diamondmaker

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Italy is our last match (and it was France's first right?)

And we have scotland before them...so not to sound harsh on these two teams...but if France do get beaten in either of the next two matches (which I doubt but)....we will have a target to squeeze out of both of those teams seeing as they are the two weakest in the league.

Fance have woin the 1st 2 ON THE ROAD, What does bode hopefull for us is that France go to Twickers and England go to the Millenium stadium on the last day.

Those 2 fixtures offer a little glimmer of hope, provided we can win on the road after the reuired home win to England.

terry mac

Orchard Rebel wrote:

When Clerc stepped inside, four of the five (Horan, Best, D'Arcy and Horgan) bought the dummy - despite the fact that there was only one man out wide.

Having shrugged off Hayes (a mismatch for which Hayes wasn't to blame), he easily stepped inside Horgan (who'd criminally overrun his position in my opinion) and finished before Hickie or O'Connell could intervene.

O'Connell was too late to intervene ( Clerc was over the line by the time he was near him)

Hickie missed the tackle, full stop.

Erin Go Brath

Disappointed, gutted, the Grand Slam dream is dead!

Its too depressing to look at what we might have, should have, could have done. Lets look to the next game instead with optimism. If we go out and destroy England, and record wins over Scotland and Italy we'll be in good shape for the WC. We did lose narrowly, but we've shown we're as good as the French and we shouldn't be afraid of anybody. Roll on Feb 24th and the England game. Ireland are wounded, and will be extremely dangerous opponents for England.

thirdmantackle

the French are still that small bit ahead of Ireland - even though NZ hockeyed them twice last year.

Remember we now havn't beaten them in four attempts. We're getting closer to them though. That game will provide such motivation for the WC in the Autumn. Get BOD back in there and it'll be in Ireland's favour

Again, EOS has shouwn he's afraid to properly use the subs bench. Those French subs really made a difference towards the end as they were all fighting for places

Feck the 6 Nations!! We HAVE to beat France and the Argies in the WC pool games to avoid NZ

daveirl

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Diamondmaker

England won it on the 4th attempt with a pretty settled team in the build upo to the WC triumph. It has to be done in the next 2 years maybe even one or it will not happen.

England go to a danngerous Welsh on the last day who hopefully will have less injury worries and a no pressure kill Eng attyitude and the French go to an English team who will be looking to show they are going places,
#
These 2 games are where our championship aspirations now lay, outside of freak results and the obviuo Ire winning their own.

LuckyLloyd

Yesterday's result was extremely dissapointing. This is a good Irish Team, but they will have to be viewed as failures if they fail to do at least two of the following four things:

- Complete a Grand Slam

- Win a Six Nations

- Reach the Semi - Final of a World Cup

- Beat New Zealand in a test Match

This is because on Irish Team has ever done these things before. It is great that Irish rugby has been competing over the past six years. It is wonderful to watch this Irish team when they are in full flow. But if they really are a great team - they should be able to advance the achievments of Irish rugby, and that entails winning more than a couple of triple crowns.

There was so much at stake yesterday - allowing the French over the line in the last seconds is unforgivable IMO. We can talk of looking forward to England etc, but in my IMO it is back to the drawing board yet again for this team. The reality is that the seasons where we have England and France at home are the realistic years to expect a Grand Slam. That means it will be the season after next before an opportunity arises again. It will be a different Irish team by that point - and the best chance yet of doing it was thrown away yesterday.

Boo Urns.

Hippo

daveirl wrote:

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Not underestimating the difficulty for a minute, Dave, that's what makes it so hard to take; France were the great obstacle this year and we were within seconds of doing it. Maybe that's the last chance gone for some of these players. As regards the championship I've got to say France look pretty good for it, I can't see the overweight saxons stopping them.

thebaz

one of the positives from yesterdays defeat , is it will probably help us beat France in the world cup -- victory yesterday , i believe would have foccused France more on beating us at the world cup -- we have a better chance now

Erin Go Brath

thebaz wrote:

one of the positives from yesterdays defeat , is it will probably help us beat France in the world cup -- victory yesterday , i believe would have foccused France more on beating us at the world cup -- we have a better chance now

I agree totally. If we won the Grand Slam, we might be over confident/arrogant going into a WC. We'd be calling ourselves the best team in Europe and suchforth. Now we'll certainly have our feet on the ground, and we'll play for 80 minutes and not lose concentration, and be more focused. Still a tall order beating France in the WC, but not winning the 6N's (I don't believe we have a chance now), we'll be hungrier in the WC, which has to be a good thing.

kevpants

My point on the mentality is not that they have a losing one but that they almost can’t believe they are as good as they are and that the pressure to perform seems to get to them It’s well to say we bossed the second half but what about the damage done in the first half? Instead of coming flying out of the blocks we were nervous. It’s easy to come back in the second half because the blood is pumping and you’ve settled into the game but all too often we are faced with weathering a storm on these big occasions.

Please don’t take this as me saying they are a bunch of losers but psychologically I think we are suffering and it would be a shame if it meant Ireland were denied a piece of history by winning a World Cup or a Grand Slam.

My point on the Aussie mentality was not just confined to Rugby but to everything. They have a winning mentality and are incredibly sore losers. We take defeat worryingly well. Maybe the sick stomachs after yesterdays match are a step in the right direction.

LFC5Times

kevpants wrote:

My point on the mentality is not that they have a losing one but that they almost can’t believe they are as good as they are and that the pressure to perform seems to get to them It’s well to say we bossed the second half but what about the damage done in the first half? Instead of coming flying out of the blocks we were nervous. It’s easy to come back in the second half because the blood is pumping and you’ve settled into the game but all too often we are faced with weathering a storm on these big occasions.

Please don’t take this as me saying they are a bunch of losers but psychologically I think we are suffering and it would be a shame if it meant Ireland were denied a piece of history by winning a World Cup or a Grand Slam.

My point on the Aussie mentality was not just confined to Rugby but to everything. They have a winning mentality and are incredibly sore losers. We take defeat worryingly well. Maybe the sick stomachs after yesterdays match are a step in the right direction.

In fairness to the Aussies though sport is a huge part of their lifestyle and they hate to lose at anything.

But at the same time we dont want to turn into an arrogant,cocky,self obsessed ,"im better than the rest" Aussies.Im not saying you are like that for one min but alot of Aussies are in fact, and iv been to Oz and witnessed it myself and i have witnessed it here to from Aussies in Ireland.

buck65

It might focus us more for the world cup but winning a Slam or a Champioship (in my opinion both are now beyond us) is probably all that Ireland can win. I really don't see us beating any of the following in a world cup knockout game - France, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. I think we all got a little carried away around here taliking about World Cup finals when we struggle everyear in the 6 Nations to beat France.
I thought N Best, Flannery and Trimble palyed wll when they came on and should start the next day.

Sangre

Its shocking how little some people on this thread seem to know about rugby. Anyone who says they shouldn't have kicked the last penalty is slightly....cluless. Its like taking a corner over a penalty shot because it wastes more time.

Similarily the Irish didn't lose because of their 'losing mentality'. In fact the only reason they were actually in the lead with 1 minute to go is because they have anything but.

LFC5Times

buck65 wrote:

It might focus us more for the world cup but winning a Slam or a Champioship (in my opinion both are now beyond us) is probably all that Ireland can win. I really don't see us beating any of the following in a world cup knockout game - France, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. I think we all got a little carried away around here taliking about World Cup finals when we struggle everyear in the 6 Nations to beat France.
I thought N Best, Flannery and Trimble palyed wll when they came on and should start the next day.

I dont think Trimble will be starting on the wing against England,defensively he is not great when the ball is kicked over his head and has to turn around or his return kicks would not be the best either.

Hopefully O'Driscoll might be back by then,if not i think they will stick with Geordan Murphy on the wing.

LFC5Times

Sangre wrote:

Its shocking how little some people on this thread seem to know about rugby. Anyone who says they shouldn't have kicked the last penalty is slightly....cluless. Its like taking a corner over a penalty shot because it wastes more time.

Similarily the Irish didn't lose because of their 'losing mentality'. In fact the only reason they were actually in the lead with 1 minute to go is because they have anything but.

Yeh i think that "losing mentality" problem has been eradicated over the last few years.
Sure havent we managed to beat the Aussies,England,France etc over the last few years and run New Zealand close.
Also our provinces doing well helps with players mentality when playing International matches.

We lost because we were slow to start(went 13-3 down) and missed tackles cost us 14 points, missed tackles have nothing to do with a losing mentality.

nacho libre

France would not have missed three tackles in the dying seconds to lose a game. Winners make the most of their periods of possession. It really is to do with mentality. France had the belief they could score. As Brian Moore said Ireland choked it. Ireland should have secured possession from the restart.

kevpants

Is making a slow start not down to mentality? Is it not a contradiction to say that we didn't lose becasue of our mentality it was because of a slow start.

And please don't blame Croke park, we started slow in Wales as well. Not even a fluke early try got us focused.

I'm making constructive criticism here, I think we have what it takes ability wise to win the world cup never mind the Grand slam.

Getting a bit sick of the whole "so many people here know nothing about rugby" comments that seem to flicker each discussion. No one is contesting how great a team Ireland are but anyone who says there isn't something missing other than just pure rugby ability (which we have in abundance in attack and defence) doesn't know anything about anything, never mind rugby.

killapool

I do not post very often but I need to get this out of my system.

Why did(does) this hurt so bloddy much was it because of Croker or the way it was lost. Its only a game but christ it feels really terrible. We've all seen Ireland screw up before....

I guess we now have a world class team and with that comes the expectation...

I had some English mates (live in London) coming around for their game but I've told them not to come. I'd loose a few friends if this happened again....

Hermy

Diamondmaker wrote:

Anyone who is suggestibng that we should have kicked for the line s has not got a clue. Yes in hind sight it is likley that we would have been able to kill the clock in the corner but this is ifs and buts. Rugby like any sport is a % game and in this situation takking the 3 points offers better odds of retaining a lead.

To defend a 4 point lead with 2 minutes to go is far far more attaiable than to defend a 1 pointer. A drop goal is practically impossible to defend against, especially if the foprwards are good enough ( which they were ) to set up good position for the OH in the pocket.

Once in the pocket and there is a clean pass, its all down to the OHs bottle and no defence will rush up fast enough on a well placed OH.

A 4 poit difference is very easy ( relative ) to defend. All you haved to do is make tackles, you are in control of you own destiny when you just have to make all your tackles for 2 minutes.

O'Gara kicked for touch against Leicester in Thomond in January when there was an easy (I think) three pointer and the lead on offer.
Against France in Croker he took the three points which ultimately led to Ireland having to defend in their own 22, when a kick to touch would have meant a desperate French side doing the defending at the opposite end of the pitch. Surely with only 3 minutes remaining that field position was much more valuable, particularly if drop goals were a concern.
And what about kicking for touch with the intent of scoring a try and putting the game out of reach before the final whistle had even sounded. That sort of intent would negate all that stuff about bad refereeing or team mentality or any of the other excuses put forward to explain the result.

daveirl

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nacho libre

Hermy wrote:

O'Gara kicked for touch against Leicester in Thomond in January when there was an easy (I think) three pointer and the lead on offer.
Against France in Croker he took the three points which ultimately led to Ireland having to defend in their own 22, when a kick to touch would have meant a desperate French side doing the defending at the opposite end of the pitch. Surely with only 3 minutes remaining that field position was much more valuable, particularly if drop goals were a concern.
And what about kicking for touch with the intent of scoring a try and putting the game out of reach before the final whistle had even sounded. That sort of intent would negate all that stuff about bad refereeing or team mentality or any of the other excuses put forward to explain the result.

O'Gara would been crucified had he not gone for the points and subsequently France gained a good field position which resulted in a French score. Ireland tryed their best to score a try before this and were not able to against the resolute French defense. So France could easily have come away with a good field position had Ireland taken your option and scored thereafter through a penalty or drop-goal. Then we would have people complaining why didn't O'Gara kick the points on offer!

LFC5Times

nacho libre wrote:

France would not have missed three tackles in the dying seconds to lose a game. Winners make the most of their periods of possession. It really is to do with mentality. France had the belief they could score. As Brian Moore said Ireland choked it. Ireland should have secured possession from the restart.

:LMAO

Its nothing to do with mentality,if we had a losing mentality we wouldnt have beaten the teams we have over the last few years.Or had you watched rugby when we won those matches ?
Look at the size of our country compared to others and we overachieve.

And if you listen to Brian Moore it must be right - he is the biggest idiot of a commentator on TV in any sport at the monet and is so bias towards England its ridiculous and anti - Irish provincial teams.
Trust me dont ever listen to him he talks through his rear.

How do you know France wouldnt have missed those tackles at the end ? You dont know and you never will - silly point.

So i suppose the French winger wouldnt have missed the tackle Geordan Murphy did early in the game and he has a losing mentality ???

Just because they kicked off doesnt automatically mean we win the kick off - rugby doesnt work like that,it was good drop off.

The reasons we lost are we gave away soft tries simple as that and thats not to a losing mentality,its due to poor tackling.

I get the impression you either lost money on the game or are a bitter GAA head who doesnt want to see "foreign sports" in Croker and are having a go at the Irish rugby team.

jeawan

LFC5Times wrote:

:LMAO

Its nothing to do with mentality,if we had a losing mentality we wouldnt have beaten the teams we have over the last few years.Or had you watched rugby when we won those matches ?
Look at the size of our country compared to others and we overachieve.

And if you listen to Brian Moore it must be right - he is the biggest idiot of a commentator on TV in any sport at the monet and is so bias towards England its ridiculous and anti - Irish provincial teams.
Trust me dont ever listen to him he talks through his rear.

How do you know France wouldnt have missed those tackles at the end ? You dont know and you never will - silly point.

So i suppose the French winger wouldnt have missed the tackle Geordan Murphy did early in the game and he has a losing mentality ???

Just because they kicked off doesnt automatically mean we win the kick off - rugby doesnt work like that,it was good drop off.

The reasons we lost are we gave away soft tries simple as that and thats not to a losing mentality,its due to poor tackling.

I get the impression you either lost money on the game or are a bitter GAA head who doesnt want to see "foreign sports" in Croker and are having a go at the Irish rugby team.

agree there , ireland didn't go out to win , they missed tackles and missed passes , in short they played **** , are back line was so bad i've never seen them play that bad in a long time, half the time the line wasn't ever organized and france went out to win with a tactic and it worked , we just showed up , yes the game was intresting when we woke up a bit , but they still didnt play like the team we saw back in October , if they play like that against england we be hammered , and England played crap against Italy

daveirl

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nacho libre

LFC5Times wrote:

:LMAO

Its nothing to do with mentality,if we had a losing mentality we wouldnt have beaten the teams we have over the last few years.Or had you watched rugby when we won those matches ?
Look at the size of our country compared to others and we overachieve.

And if you listen to Brian Moore it must be right - he is the biggest idiot of a commentator on TV in any sport at the monet and is so bias towards England its ridiculous and anti - Irish provincial teams.
Trust me dont ever listen to him he talks through his rear.

How do you know France wouldnt have missed those tackles at the end ? You dont know and you never will - silly point.

So i suppose the French winger wouldnt have missed the tackle Geordan Murphy did early in the game and he has a losing mentality ???

Just because they kicked off doesnt automatically mean we win the kick off - rugby doesnt work like that,it was good drop off.

The reasons we lost are we gave away soft tries simple as that and thats not to a losing mentality,its due to poor tackling.

I get the impression you either lost money on the game or are a bitter GAA head who doesnt want to see "foreign sports" in Croker and are having a go at the Irish rugby team.

I'll accept my analysis might be flawed but the personal attack is uncalled for.

Your impression of me is completely wrong. I'm not a bigot or into tribalism.
I was delighted to see the team playing in Croke Park. I didn't lose money either as i knew deep down France would win. I am as disappointed as you are Ireland lost.
I agree with you about Brian Moore he is biased and a caustic individual. However, regardless of his reasons for saying it, i think he was right about Ireland choking it. This has everything to do with mentality in my opinion. If they had the right mentality they would not have got off to such a slow start. The slow starts indicates to me they were over-awed by the occasion. You are right I can't know if France would not have missed tackles but there was a familiar pattern to that game as there are to others games; the top teams play for 80 minutes and close out the game. Missing tackles is a sign of tireness and if overcoming tireness is in the mind then that's down to mentality. Champions get that little bit of extra effort out of themselves. That's what winners do. Lance Armstrong did it to win the Tour de France seven times.

Heisenberg.

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madds

In my opinion the following factors were the main contributing factors to Ireland putting in a bad performance yesterday:

1. Opening 10 mins
We lost our first lineout and first scrum. Never a good start. Then we conceded that try.

2. The Horgan experiment
Shaggy does not possess the required hand speed to play first centre in the international game. I lost count of the number of times the ball got held up at inside centre when we had an attacking opportunity. Add to this the fact that the French defense were up very quickly that Shaggy started resorting to throwing skip passes, two of which were knocked on/intercepted. We would have been better off with Darcy at 12, and Murphy at 13 when in possession.

3. French played the offside line perfectly
Their midfield defence was very strong and a different referee may have not let them get away with as much as they did yesterday.

4. O'Gara's kicks for touch
Compared to the French kicks for touch, very poor.

5. Loss of O'Driscoll
Can't be underestimated. Shows how little quality cover we have when one of Darcy or BOD get injured.

6. Restarts
If I remember correctly, every single one of them went straight up the middle of the pitch. Works to your advantage if you can reclaim possession but if not, you leave yourself open to attack. Our restarts were poor from the off yesterday yet we still persisted in continuing with this tactic (not angling our kicks) when it was evident that the French were winning the vast majority of these.

Even if the French had not scored that last gasp try I would have the same opinion. I still think that if we get BOD back for the England game, we will give a better account of ourselves and win. The team needs to rediscover their confidence though.

Sundy

Hermy wrote:

O'Gara kicked for touch against Leicester in Thomond in January when there was an easy (I think) three pointer and the lead on offer.
Against France in Croker he took the three points which ultimately led to Ireland having to defend in their own 22, when a kick to touch would have meant a desperate French side doing the defending at the opposite end of the pitch. Surely with only 3 minutes remaining that field position was much more valuable, particularly if drop goals were a concern.
And what about kicking for touch with the intent of scoring a try and putting the game out of reach before the final whistle had even sounded. That sort of intent would negate all that stuff about bad refereeing or team mentality or any of the other excuses put forward to explain the result.

In fairness Hermy only somebody who does not know very much about rugby would suggest the above. 3 minutes is a long time in rugby and going for the corner would have been a foolish gamble. Plus the irish forwards were exhausted from that maul, to expect a continued domination of the french would ahve been alot to ask when there was 3 points on offer. Taking the points was the right thing to do, it put ireland out of drop goal range.

daveirl

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LuckyLloyd

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Not since it became the six nations.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Not since it became the six nations.

lol

KELTICKNIGHTT

WAS big shock when they scored,but expected them to throw everything at ireland
we have done the same
stringer and odriscoll where loss,
the slow start only put ireland under big pressure
have to pick up and do better againist england

pickarooney

Not sure if anyone has admitted it yet, but it was a lovely try by Clerc

Orchard Rebel

Agreed. Wasn't unlike the try O'Driscoll scored against France at Lansdowne in 2005.

Laslo

It's been Ireland's problem for decades folks. Even when they're at the top of their game in terms of available talent, they can't play 80 solid minutes of rugby. In nearly every match, they have an out-of-character 20 or 30 minutes of play and throw the big games away as a result.

On top form, Ireland are capable of beating any team in the world (the AB's at a push!) but they'll always be confined to mediocrity due to their lack of confidence.

zuutroy

All I have to add is this is the one year where we have a consolation for such a heart-breaking loss. We get to have a second bite of the cherry in France, in the big one. If they do France then and go a long way in the WC, this match will be a post script to 2007 in Irish Rugby

Hermy

Sundy wrote:

In fairness Hermy only somebody who does not know very much about rugby would suggest the above. 3 minutes is a long time in rugby and going for the corner would have been a foolish gamble. Plus the irish forwards were exhausted from that maul, to expect a continued domination of the french would ahve been alot to ask when there was 3 points on offer. Taking the points was the right thing to do, it put ireland out of drop goal range.

I certainly seem to be on my own on this one. Of course the lads were exhausted after the maul, and anything could have, and ultimately did happen in those remaining three minutes. It's just a What if that's been bugging me since O'Gara decided to kick for goal. Seems I still have a lot to learn about this great game.