Advice for those considering postgraduate study

Tom Dunne

A topic that has appeared in a lot of the other education fora is people considering further study, especially PhDs.

Personally, I have been toying with the idea of a PhD for a while now.

So, what advice would you give to people considering postgraduate study?

And on this point - would/did you consider it worthwhile taking a year in between a degree and a masters?

Psycho Magnet

Myth wrote:

And on this point - would/did you consider it worthwhile taking a year in between a degree and a masters?

I've been out three years now, and I'm going back to get a masters this year. I think taking a break between degrees was a good idea. You don't want to burn out from school. Plus it gives you a bit of time to mull over life in the real world.

Tom Dunne

Myth wrote:

And on this point - would/did you consider it worthwhile taking a year in between a degree and a masters?

I didn't.

I did both my degree and masters part time while working, so I felt it was better not to take a break. I thought that if I did, I would find it harder to get back into the "habit".

aaronquigley

tom dunne wrote:

A topic that has appeared in a lot of the other education fora is people considering further study, especially PhDs.

Personally, I have been toying with the idea of a PhD for a while now.

So, what advice would you give to people considering postgraduate study?

Hi,
This might be a hard question to answer but why do you want to do a PhD? To strengthen your academic resume for your current position? To move into industrial R&D? For the pure fun of it? For the intellectual challenge? Or some subset?

Based on something else of yours I read you at in an IT working? If so, will you go part-time or full time on this? Does your head of school support this effort and give time to pursue it? Or are you all on your own?

I'll have more to say if you post a follow up.

Cheers,
Aaron.

os. the IRCSET grant deadline is this Wed www.ircset.ie if you intend to go fulltime and get a scholarship for support.

Tom Dunne

aaronquigley wrote:

Hi,
This might be a hard question to answer but why do you want to do a PhD?
To strengthen your academic resume for your current position?

You've essentially answered the question right there. I want to strengthen my CV. There is also the question of knowledge - I can't get enough of it, so there is a shade of intellectual challenge to it too.

aaronquigley wrote:

Based on something else of yours I read you at in an IT working?

Yes, I am working full-time in a 9-5 job, and lecturing in the evening times at an Institute of Technology (not IT Tallaght, for the record ).

aaronquigley wrote:

If so, will you go part-time or full time on this? Does your head of school support this effort and give time to pursue it? Or are you all on your own?

Now there is the burning question. As a married man with a mortgage, doing a PhD fulltime isn't really an option. I have done my homework on this, though, and speaking to my prospective PhD supervisor, he has told me it could take up to 7 years part-time. I am under no illusions as to the volume of work. My prospective supervisor also happens to be the head of department in the IT I lecture in, so he knows my situation.

Being realistic, working 9-5, lecturing part-time and doing a PhD doesn't leave room for other things (wife, life, etc.), so I'm still trying to figure out a plan.

How about some applications advice too,
like research proposals etc... I'm in the middle of applying as well and any general advice would be great
As for a year out - I think I'd die of boredom

Psycho Magnet

bluewolf wrote:

How about some applications advice too,
like research proposals etc... I'm in the middle of applying as well and any general advice would be great
As for a year out - I think I'd die of boredom

Can't really offer you any advice there... I'm doing a taught program and my application was all of two pages on the PAC website. They said I could send them a personal statement if I wanted to, but I didn't. I was accepted, so I guess it doesn't matter at this point. (Although, it makes me wonder how good the program actually is...)

rain on

Myth wrote:

And on this point - would/did you consider it worthwhile taking a year in between a degree and a masters?

In my MA class, all the people who went straight from BA to MA got 2.1s or 2.2s at the end of the year, and all the people who took a year or two out got firsts. I didn't expect that at all, it was interesting...

aaronquigley

tom dunne wrote:

You've essentially answered the question right there. I want to strengthen my CV. There is also the question of knowledge - I can't get enough of it, so there is a shade of intellectual challenge to it too.

Gotcha. Well I know quite a few people in industry who pursue very happy research careers and have never studied beyond an undergrad degree. I also know a number of academics here and overseas with bachelors or masters who do loads (and I mean loads) of great research without a PhD. If you can find the time in your current job to weave in the research you want to do then a PhD might not be for you.. however.. read below

tom dunne wrote:

Yes, I am working full-time in a 9-5 job, and lecturing in the evening times at an Institute of Technology (not IT Tallaght, for the record ).

I studied for about 4 months at the start of my PhD, then due to financial reasons I taught part-time (which cut into my research time). I then headed off overseas to work as a visiting researcher with a related company working on thesis related ideas. I then came back to Uni and took up a full time teaching job (along with course prep, supervision etc.) and worked on my thesis part-time.

All in all it took me 4 years. 8 months full time 12 months off then 2 and a bit part time. However, for the final 12 months I worked like a devil. My partner spent the year in Japan (very wise for both of us). I taught/prepred 4 days a week and then headed to another city to be with my supervisor for 3 days. I was working 80-90 hour weeks, on trains, buses, late-late nights, remote work with my own students, replying to emails from class at 3am etc. I was 27 at the time and I don't think I could have this level of energy now.

tom dunne wrote:

Now there is the burning question. As a married man with a mortgage, doing a PhD fulltime isn't really an option. I have done my homework on this, though, and speaking to my prospective PhD supervisor, he has told me it could take up to 7 years part-time. I am under no illusions as to the volume of work. My prospective supervisor also happens to be the head of department in the IT I lecture in, so he knows my situation.

Well if you are in a good working situation and they see the value in your study then you should look into things like front-loading your teaching (do it all in one semester), taking a sabbatical, getting reduced duties. If none of these are forthcoming then do they really want to help? My head of school had no problem with me working mon-wed in my uni and heading off to another for thur/fri to be with my supervisor. (Grantedly he got 2 courses worth of work out of me, one of which was brand new!! - not a good idea while working on thesis).

tom dunne wrote:

Being realistic, working 9-5, lecturing part-time and doing a PhD doesn't leave room for other things (wife, life, etc.), so I'm still trying to figure out a plan.

Wife and life... yike.. well my supervisor had a wife who supported him in his PhD years along with kids too. I think your life will suffer. I have a Phd student finishing with me now and he has put his life on hold for the past 6 months with his GF supporting him.

Overall, if you have the passion go for it.. everyone has weird situations to work around and with the right home and work support you will get there.

Keep in mind your PhD shouldn't be the best research you ever do just the first substantive piece of your own work.

Aaron.

aaronquigley

bluewolf wrote:

How about some applications advice too,
like research proposals etc... I'm in the middle of applying as well and any general advice would be great
As for a year out - I think I'd die of boredom

For IRCSET? I understand the personal statement, references and your marks count very highly. If you can find someone who applied last year ask for their feedback which includes the weighted marking scheme used.

I've read a few "proposals" and sometimes the ones that really motivate the area and outline the open problems and proposed direction are the best. The ones that waffle on about Sematic Web this.. Web 2.0 that and Extreme Programming in vague terms are horrible to read.

Aaron.

aaronquigley

Myth wrote:

And on this point - would/did you consider it worthwhile taking a year in between a degree and a masters?

I took two years off between my undergrad and postgrad, teaching English in Japan. I'm VERY glad I did it but I was quite nervous about getting a scholarship to resume my studies after two years away. Note: At this point some of my friends were looking to start their thesis write-ups while I'd been off having fun.. That was a bit of a heart stopper but didn't affect me in the long run.

If I had a year off to do it again I would travel (A LOT) and do little bits of work along the way.

Aaron.

aaronquigley

aaronquigley wrote:

For IRCSET? I understand the personal statement, references and your marks count very highly. If you can find someone who applied last year ask for their feedback which includes the weighted marking scheme used.

I've read a few "proposals" and sometimes the ones that really motivate the area and outline the open problems and proposed direction are the best. The ones that waffle on about Sematic Web this.. Web 2.0 that and Extreme Programming in vague terms are horrible to read.

Aaron.

Nah, it's for a phd project in QUB. They don't tend to tell you what they're looking for in the research proposal... and I'm applying for a specific project they chose
I've been told
"You write what you want to do for your PhD studies in connection to the
project you chose."
sigh.
Actually yeah, problems and direction might be a good idea.

Red Alert

I think it might be better if we took the IRCSET stuff etc to a new thread - handy for people just looking for application info!

Marshie

bluewolf wrote:

How about some applications advice too,
like research proposals etc... I'm in the middle of applying as well and any general advice would be great
As for a year out - I think I'd die of boredom

The best advice is to talk to the person you will be working with. They should be able to help you out with a research proposal.

It's also a good chance to get an idea of what they'd be like as a supervisor. If they won't give you 5 minutes to help with your application then what will they be like when you need some help with your PhD?

aaronquigley

Marshie wrote:

If they won't give you 5 minutes to help with your application then what will they be like when you need some help with your PhD?

Good advice!

Aaron.

Marshie

Marshie wrote:

The best advice is to talk to the person you will be working with. They should be able to help you out with a research proposal.

It's also a good chance to get an idea of what they'd be like as a supervisor. If they won't give you 5 minutes to help with your application then what will they be like when you need some help with your PhD?

Good point. I asked some of their other students - I went up to the uni to visit them and the supervisor guy invited everyone [in his research group] out to lunch because I was visiting - about what he's like as a supervisor and how much help he gives etc and apparently he's great for guidance. Emailed him again about the research prop, got it in.

Tom Dunne

From speaking to others who have completed PhDs, the one thing that appears to be vital is the relationship between the student and the supervisor. Speaking to one guy who had a PhD in psychology, he told me he went through 3 or 4 supervisors before he found one he could work closely with.

Blush_01

Just from the point of view of someone who's potentially up to a decade pre-PhD: I'm currently doing my MA. I finished my BA in June and graduated in December. I really regret not having taken a year out. I love the course material (to the point of obsession, it appears ), but I don't like the course.

I feel like I've been in formal education forever. (Started pre-school at 2, 22 now. I'm still pretty much a baby, but it's a long time to have had nothing but formal education as a focal point.)

ringleader

tom dunne wrote:

From speaking to others who have completed PhDs, the one thing that appears to be vital is the relationship between the student and the supervisor.

My supervisor is the only reason i got through mine.

Stress levels were off the scale, and the last thing i needed was a supervisor who was on my case all the time.

Thankfully he guided and supported, rather than harangued and chased.

That said, he was unusually gifted in his area of research which can be a hindrance as much as a help.

My advice for deciding on whether to do a PhD would be that you must have an all-consuming passion for your subject.

This would mean:

• between drinking and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between sleeping in and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between kicking back on a holiday and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between family, friends, and having a life outside the books/lab and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• It also means having a significant other that understands that this is your lifes work.

You will never have such a thing as a 9-5 job in your life if you go to all the effort of completing a PhD, and everyone around you must know that. This includes you. You better have come to terms with the notion - if at all wary, don't proceed.

The PhD is so esoteric that you will have no choice but to work in that field, since it will be the only thing you are qualified in. Be definite that you understand the non 9-5 nature of it and what you are getting yourself into.

Essentially, all the above reasons are there because if you have a PhD you either are aiming to run a lab either academically or in industry or be a researcher professionally for the rest of your life.

People will not hire you with a PhD to do anything related to your area because they think they have to pay you more. If you don't do anything related to your area, you're not qualified and will be on low wages.

Besides, all that training in a specific area will have gone to waste if you don't use it.

ringleader

Blush_01 wrote:

I feel like I've been in formal education forever.

I felt like that and got out. It's normal though.
You see people hitting their 30's still doing PhD's after having no time out.

I turned 26 before i handed in my MRes at the end of last year.
And that's even with only 1.5 years out between BSc and MRes.

randomname2005

tom dunne wrote:

A topic that has appeared in a lot of the other education fora is people considering further study, especially PhDs.

Personally, I have been toying with the idea of a PhD for a while now.

So, what advice would you give to people considering postgraduate study?

Don't! Seriously though, I would give it a LOT of thought. Write down why you want to do it, etc (I know that was partly answered in previous posts). Also, PhDs are a lot of hard work, not something you just do.
I was talking to one of the guys in my lab about this today and we both agreed we were not sure if we would recommend postgrad (by research) to anyone.

Not to be too down or pesimistic, but think very carefully before you enter into it.

R

Esmereldina

ringleader wrote:

This would mean:

• between drinking and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between sleeping in and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between kicking back on a holiday and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• between family, friends, and having a life outside the books/lab and researching, you'd rather spend your time researching.
• It also means having a significant other that understands that this is your lifes work.

You will never have such a thing as a 9-5 job in your life if you go to all the effort of completing a PhD, and everyone around you must know that. This includes you. You better have come to terms with the notion - if at all wary, don't proceed.

The PhD is so esoteric that you will have no choice but to work in that field, since it will be the only thing you are qualified in. Be definite that you understand the non 9-5 nature of it and what you are getting yourself into.

Essentially, all the above reasons are there because if you have a PhD you either are aiming to run a lab either academically or in industry or be a researcher professionally for the rest of your life.

People will not hire you with a PhD to do anything related to your area because they think they have to pay you more. If you don't do anything related to your area, you're not qualified and will be on low wages.

Besides, all that training in a specific area will have gone to waste if you don't use it.

:eek: :eek: I don't think all this is exactly true. I know it does depend on the area though, so I can only speak for myself as a history phd student (who will hopefully be finished soon...)I like my research and I think I'm fairly good at it. I don't prefer doing research to staying in bed (on the contrary, researching allows me to stay in bed later in the mornings that other jobs would;) ) or going out with friends/going on holidays or whatever. Even though I am really interested in the area and read a lot about it in my free time, it is really just a day job (although my working days are longer that most other people's...) for me. It is something that you need to think really carefully about before going into it though, and even then you probably won't know how you really feel about it until a year or two in.

As for the lack of another other career possibilities outside academia, I am looking into this at the moment (to keep my options open, not really sure if I want to leave nice cosy academia any time soon), and I think (hope!) it's not completely true. Obviously it depends on your area, and yes if you leave academia, it's unlikely you will ever get a job that relates to your (extremely specialised) area, but you will still have a good chance of getting a good job, using the skills you learned (if not the actual knowledge you gained) during your PhD. I think this is changing now, as more people are doing PhDs that before (more funding out there) so its not such a strange and exotic degree to have as it might have been. There are also not enough jobs in academia (in the humanities at least) for all the newly graduating PhDs, so they must be going somewhere...
Anyway, I'm going to stop ranting now and watch some TV instead:cool:

Pyjamarama

I think taking a year out after college is a good idea, this is want I'm doing at the minute. I plan to travel and have a good long think about what Masters to do and whether or not I may do a Phd in the future.

I know for a fact I could not have chosen the right course for me when I was knee-deep in my thesis in my final year and if I had tried to apply for a research masters I would have ended up proposing my thesis as I was so absorbed in it that was all I could see. I've seen a lot of people make hasty post-grad decisions and really regret them now. I also know people who plan to go straight into a phd after their hastily picked masters because they are afraid to leave academia and work in a 9-5 job not because of their unwavering interest in their topic!!! Personally I don't think that is going to lead to a rewarding phd!!

I'm glad I've gotten a taster for the real world as I'm not such an idealistic student anymore! It also makes me realise I do want to continue my studies - as of yet have not found a masters I'm 100% sure on though and that's after a year of researching them!! An old lecturer told us once that her 42 year old friends were still lecturing part-time with no full time job in sight - that just made me want to run for the hills. I would love to be a lecturer but not sure if I can face that! I'll end this happy note!!!!