Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting

Rew

Is any done in the country or is it all F Class stuff?

Sparks

Practical long range? Eh?

And there has to be more than just F-Class, isn't service rifle or match rifle shot here as well?
(And there's at least one person interested in trying palma sometime... )

Rew

Practical precision rifle shooting involves engaging small and/or distant targets at the limit of weapon, ammunition, and shooter capability under time pressure in field settings.

Applications include but are not limited to: very small targets 1/4"-1" at 100 to 200 yards, so-called "cold bore" shots, arbitrary unknown distance targets, moving targets, ranging, shooter/spotter communication, and combinations of all of those under time constraints.

From what iv read you can make the format pretty much your own choice.

Sparks

Hmmm. I dunno Rew. How do you compare your performance across different competitions if it's different every time? I mean, score's a pretty poor indicator of technique, but it's not wholly useless...

Rew

Suppose its a bit like practical pistol. You lay out a stage and winner is the best score on that stage. I dont know enought about it to know exactly what competion fomat is TBH. I have a feeling its unheard of over here because we dont have the facility to run it really.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Hmmm. I dunno Rew. How do you compare your performance across different competitions if it's different every time? I mean, score's a pretty poor indicator of technique, but it's not wholly useless...

I suppose its like rally driving then, every stage is different every race is different. You have to use your finishing position compared to the other competitors as a measure i suppose.

Sounds cool but something I would be nowhere near skilled enough to attempt

Rew

Some good info from this guy, really knows the sport.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/

I thinks its somthing that anyone could get in to, would really push you to become an expert in your rile, scope and balistics!!!

macnas

Is this what you mean Rew?

Warning, large file but a catchy soundtrack.

maglite

is it worth wating for 25mb?

Rovi

maglite wrote:

is it worth wating for 25mb?

If you're interested in Practical (Dynamic?) Pistol and the like, I'd say: "Yes."
It's about 4.5 minutes of guys 'running with guns' (semi-automatic fullbores).

It looks like too much fun and I'd love to give it a go, but the main hurdles I'd see to doing it here is the absence of suitable ranges and the difficulty of licensing the guns.

Rew

macnas wrote:

Is this what you mean Rew?

Warning, large file but a catchy soundtrack.

Nah that pratical rifle, thats for the Ar15/Semi Auto kids

Zak Smith

Hi,

I found this thread by following the link to my articles page. Hi everyone!

"Practical pistol" competition has been around for 30+ years. It was started as a forum to develop and practice more "real world" pistol shooting techniques. In the 80's, people started shooting 3-Gun, which is "practical" competition with pistol, shotgun, and carbine (ie, semi-auto rifle). The video posted is basically action/practical carbine (or IPSC rifle).

The last genre is the long-range rifle shooting, which I call "Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting". I don't know if anyone has called it exactly that before, but matches involving these skills have been around for at least 10 years. They are split in their "marketing" between hunting and sniper/tactical matches, but the point is the same-- to make first-round hits on unknown-distance practical-size targets at long range, in field, and under time constraints.

Last summer my organization Colorado Multigun ran a match called the Practical Rifle Team Challenge. Here's how we described it:

Colorado Multigun's Practical Rifle Team Challenge is designed to test a 2-man team's skills shooting rifle, carbine, and pistol to their effective ranges at practical targets in the natural terrain using what gear they can carry.

Shooters should expect:

* 7 field stages shot in the natural terrain over 3 days, including 2 night shoots (night vision gear not required)
* physical challenges, obstacle negotiation, climbing, crawling, water
* movement up to 1 mile
* local altitude of 6700'
* to carry gear used during the courses of fire
* shooting rifles to 1000 yards and carbines to 500 yards
* there is an optional bonus target at 1200 yards
* varied target size: rifle targets between 1" - 18", generally no smaller than 1 MOA at a distance.
* mixture of "precision" and "speed" shooting with scoring to match
* "Run-n-Gun"

Here's the original match web site http://www.coloradomultigun.com/prtc/
A short report http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-rifle-team-challenge-2006/
Pictures http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRTC-2006

Here are some pictures from a LR rifle - carbine - pistol match we run every other month at an Army base in Wyoming: http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/CGMG-2006.11/

If you look around on the web-site, I have a lot more pictures from practical 3-Gun, carbine, and LR rifle matches.

Enjoy!

Zak Smith

Here is another match with a different format. It can be set up anywhere, provided enough land and safe backstops for shooting, and 50-80 steel targets.

http://demigodllc.com/srm

The "Sporting Rifle Match" at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton NM is designed to test a rifleman's skills shooting small targets from approximately 175 to 700 yards in the natural terrain, with what he can carry throughout the course. (The "Sporting Rifle Match" has nothing to do with NRA High Power "Sporting Rifle" class.)

The match format is 10 stages spread over a 2 mile distance. Each stage has 6 targets at varying distances to be engaged with only one shot each. Target distances are known to the shooter. There is no time limit, but the shooter must finish within a reasonable period of time. No "sighter shots" allowed. Score is total number of hits out of 60 possible. No one has shot a perfect score, yet.

Match entry is $30. There is partial cash payback to winner(s) based on the match turnout. The balance of fees goes to the NRA WC.

Typical equipment used includes: a rifle capable of 1 MOA accuracy; rifle optics allowing precise hold-over for small targets from 175 - 700 yards; binoculars to spot for other shooters; and a backpack to carry water, ammunition, and a couple power bars.

Rew

Hey Zak,

Welcome to the site. Practical pistol is taking off rappidly over here with the reintroduction of pistols, no pratcial rilfe or shotgun that I know of. There arnt many fullbore semi-autos around.

The Long Range Rifle stuff looks great, have the competion rules been formailsed in anyway or is it just indvidule competions?

Rovi

Hi Zak!
Welcome to out little 'Irish' corner of the shooting Internet.
I've seen you post many times over on The High Road, all well informed and interesting stuff.

If you have a hunt around this forum, you'll see that we've only very recently regained the ability to use pistols and fullbore rifles, so we're a long way behind you guys in the States when it comes to many shooting sports.

IPSC is very much in its infancy here, with all efforts being directed towards the Pistol side of things for the moment. In due course, Shotgun will come along without too much difficulty (in my opinion), but when it comes to the Rifle games we have some more intractable difficulties:
There are very few ranges authorised for benchrest/F-Class fullbore rifles, so I can see some difficulty with the higher potential for 'stray' shots inherent in the Practical sports; we quite simply don't have the huge wide open spaces necessary to be be sure that a stray shot has a close to zero chance of hitting something that shouldn't be hit.
All firearms have to be individually licenced by the Gardai (police), and they have traditionally been very leery of the whole Practical Shooting thing, I can only see this attitude being amplified when it comes to Practical Rifle.
They also have a deep seated phobia of Eeeevil Black Rifles which shows no sign of abating.

I guess we'll just have to go on living vicariously through you guys on the other side of the Atlantic for another little while.

Rew

Dont think practical long range would pose much of a proble to the midlands. Its not as engergetic as the other pratical disciplines. They dont have terrain for hideing targets in to but the basics are there.

Zak Smith

Hi,

Almost all the practical/tactical/sniper LR matches are different and have slightly different rules. This is a good thing I think to maintain versatility and evolution in the "sport". Also, many of the "ranges" have wildly different safety considerations. Some match directors want it to be a "sniper" match, some a hunters' test, some more technical, etc, etc. So you can kind of pick the kind of match you want to shoot. There is also USPSA/IPSC "MOR" class, but not very matches shoot with those rules.

Rovi,

Finding a suitable location can be a problem even here in the Big West.

Once IPSC pistol is going, you can run those same stages as carbine stages, or substitute the paper for steel and shoot shotgun. There is a lot of experience on the IPSC side which is good for getting it off the ground.

regards
Zak

J.R.

In the States they have a dynamite shoot. Cansa are filled with dynamite at various distances out to 1200 yards! It cost $1 a shot and when the can is hit it explodes, indicating a hit.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/dynamite.htm

Dvs

Rovi wrote:

so I can see some difficulty with the higher potential for 'stray' shots inherent in the Practical sports

With the greatest respect Rovi,
What kind of ****e talk is this!

Have you seen any courses of fire,
that did not put safety first and make sure,
that all shots fired were contained by the backstop?

Have you witnessed any practical shooter firing stray shots?

Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs, I'm sure you don't mean that practical shooters are infalliable! Even Olympic shooters fire stray shots - look at the last shot in the Athens Games 50m 3-position match!

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

Dvs, I'm sure you don't mean that practical shooters are infalliable! Even Olympic shooters fire stray shots - look at the last shot in the Athens Games 50m 3-position match!

Sparks,
not even I claim to be infalliable!

Practical shooting has strict rules about,
a shooters conduct on a range,
Firearms are only loaded on the firing line,
under the direction of the RO,
muzzle direction, safety angles on ranges,
and specified safety angles within courses of fire.

Shooters may not have their finger,
in the area of the trigger guard,
(That's in the area of the trigger guard, not on the trigger)
unless their sights are aligned with a target,
or they are firing a string of shots at a number of targets without moving more than one step.

Firearms are unloaded and proved clear,
at the end of a course of fire before leaving the stage.

Furthermore, these rules are not just,
written in the IPSC rulebook for the crack,
and a blind eye turned to them on occasion,
they are strictly enforced at all times!
everywhere in the IPSC world.

So to state that:

Rovi wrote:

I can see some difficulty with the higher potential for 'stray' shots inherent in the Practical sports

Is as I said,
****e Talk!

Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs, ISSF shooters have equally well-enforced rules and stray shots still happen even under the strictest of circumstances. Rifle and pistol mechanisms do malfunction, shots are fired at the wrong target under match pressure, and so on and so forth. Rovi's right - IPSC put far higher demands on their equipment because of the running about, you can't just say "we have rules and they're enforced", you have to design ranges to cope with the possibility that one day, someone, somewhere, will manage to find that one hole in the setup, that one physical malfunction or combination of million-to-one odds that will let a stray shot get away. The nature of ISSF shooting means that that shot is contained by the range; for IPSC it's harder but it is still doable. Rovi's point, if I've understood him, is that as you increase the range, you increase the difficulty in building the range to cope with that. I've seen some shooting matches in the states that sound like what's been described here - shooting at various metal reactive targets out to a mile's range, across ravines, down hills, from a helicopter in flight and so forth, but all those ranges were in the middle of nowhere with hundreds of square miles of desert around them, so they had huge natural safety zones. How do you do that in Ireland? Even the smallbore prone shooters wind up in some fairly remote spots over that concern!

Dvs

Sparks,
as to Rovi's point,
I am not sure what that is...

He Stated, that there is a,
higher potential for 'stray' shots inherent in the Practical sports.

A higher potential than a shooter,
shooting game over farm land?

A higher potential than a shooter,
shooting paper or sil targets,
on a 100m/50m rifle range?

I won't claim to know anything about ISSF shooting disciplines,
or make comment on them.

If you could do the same concerning IPSC,
until such time as you have first hand experience of it.

And in relation to the OP,
the type of shooting you described is not part of the IPSC disciplines.


Dvs.

Dvs,

I don't know much about 'practical', having just done clays and the ISSF stuff.

However a poster a while back was talking running over this, jumping that, and moving targets.

Now in a 'vanilla' ISSF 50m prone match, the target stays still and its in direct line and there is no real time pressure, even still frames get shot out, cross fires occur etc.

To my mind, if you factor in all this extra stuff, ie running, jumping, tracking moving targets and time limits - you are adding a lot more stress on the shooter. I would see that as increasing the risk of a stray shot..

I could be very wrong, and I AM NOT dissing practical shooting, I think it is quite cool and having seen videos of people doing it, I have a lot of respect for them.

If I am wrong, can you lay out exactly where?

Again, I am not dissing practical, I am just curious

Rew

With the way paractial ranges are laid out wouldnt u have to pretty much fire in to the air to have a stray?

civdef

A stray round can also be interpreted as one that goes somewhere it wasn't intended to go, like into the firer's foot, for example.

IPSC has a very good safety record because of excellent safety policies and practice. These are in place for a reason.

Shooting whilst moving is more inherently risky than whilst stationary - it doesn't take an awful lot of common sense to figure that out. A high level of control measures, as prersent in practical shooting helps to counteract these risks.

sidneyreilly

Rew wrote:

With the way paractial ranges are laid out wouldnt u have to pretty much fire in to the air to have a stray?

Correct rew:D Practical ranges are indeed laid out differently to static ranges with the express knowledge of what is involved and with courses of fire specifically set out the negate the risk.

Dvs

sidneyreilly wrote:

Correct rew:D Practical ranges are indeed laid out differently to static ranges with the express knowledge of what is involved and with courses of fire specifically set out the negate the risk.

Yes,
What Rew and Sidneyreilly say is correct,
add to this that during any course of fire in a practical stage,
the RO is arms reach behind the shooters strong side while the shooter is negotiating whatever challenges or obstacles, presented,
these challenges or obstacles are not a surprise to the shooter,
as they get to walk through the stage before it is shot by their squad,
and decide how they will deal with them.

During the course of fire the RO,
watches the shooter,
and will stop the shooter,
the moment they deviate from the safety rules.

The RO does not care how well the shooter is scoring,
the ROs job is to ensure the safety of the shooter,
and everyone else on the range.

Two brains one gun,
so in the unlikely event that a shooter,
has a brain fart,and threatens the safety angle with their muzzle,
the RO will step in and control the shooters stronghand arm and the gun.

And then DQ them from the match!

Dvs.

Rovi

Woah!
I go away for a few hours and come back to discover I've stirred up an argument.

Dvs-
I seem to have struck a nerve, for which I sincerely apologise, it was not my intention.


Everyone-
I probably should have worded that much quoted bit a little better, in that "higher potential for 'stray' shots inherent in the Practical sports, compared to most other shooting sports" more correctly conveys my intended meaning.

I would have thought that it was self evident that there is more potential for 'stray' shots when the elements of movement (of both shooter and target), holstering/drawing loaded firearms, magazine changes and speed are added to the normal stresses of shooting competition.

And that's all it is: Potential.

As others have already stated, this potential is first and foremost in the minds of course designers, Range Officers, and shooters at all times.
Thus we have strict training and qualification procedures for shooters, and stringent supervision by Range Officers during events.
This is the only shooting sport I know of where shooters are individually handled by at least one Range Officer at all times before, during, and after their course of fire.

As this thread is about Practical Long-Range Rifle (and Practical Rifle), all I'm saying is that while the Danger Area (the area beyond the backstop where a bullet may impact if it goes over the backstop) for .22 and centrefire handguns is pretty manageable here in Ireland, the Danger Area for centerfire rifles is considerable longer, and is thus much harder to put in place.
This 'Danger Area' is very much one of the criteria the Gardai/DOJ will be looking at when certifying ranges.

Even if we could put our hands on our hearts and state with absolute certainty (which I contend we can't) that there will never, ever, under any circumstance, be a shot fired that isn't contained by the backstop, getting a range certified for Practical Rifle will always be more difficult than getting one for Practical Pistol (and Shotgun).

les45

To a spectator visiting a Dynamic Pistol Competition for the first time , he or she would indeed question the santiy of a group of shooters all standing around watching a guy or girl trying to complete a course of fire as quickly as possible . They would not be aware of the time and effort it took that individual to achieve competition status. The competitor has spent 14 hrs under direct instruction in a intense class environment with a 300 rnd qualifier to ensure that he or she is up to scratch . In relation to the RO he or she has taken 5 written exams ,pass rate is 75 % on all exams . All for the simple reason that to partake in this target shooting discipline, we demand the highest standards from our shooters and ROs. When a match designer sets a stage he or she is attempting to test the shooting skill of the shooter , not his or her ability to run , jump or turn cartwheels. In relation to dynamic Rifle the IPSA are awaiting the deliberations of the CJB before any decision is made , as for Dynamic Shotgun we have invited a member of the UKPSA Shotgun Committee to discuss with interested members the possibilty of starting Dynamic Shotgun Competitions in our region in early Summer. Our sport has a outstanding saftey record due the rigorous application of the rules, and the hard work and effort the ROs put in to each competition to keep it that way.
John FitzGerald RD I.P.S.A