How do you think FF are doing?

ballooba

Glenbhoy wrote:

So your problem with it is not that the service is being provided (which is a good thing imo), but that it is being provided in an inefficient manner? (which is fair enough).

Yes, I also believe that 6 pupils to a teacher is inefficient though. There is a middle ground between 35:1 and 6:1. Where that ratio is is up for debate.

miju

jaysis lads going wayyy of topic here aint ye

ISAW sorry you dont like my graphs seeing as how i've posted links is there anything you'd like to post to back up your view seeing as how your so big on the whole evidence thing

ninty9er

While I hear ministers and the opposition wailing about class sizes in primary schools, I just shake my head in disbelief....I attended a primary school of approx 500 pupils....Never once in my 8 years there was I in a class of less than 29 and generally the figure was 31-32.

It has not done me or any of those other pupils one iota of harm and at an estimate, at least 70-80% of the guys and girls in my 6th class cohort are now (to the best of my knowledge) in 3rd level or are undertaking trades....there was 1 full time remedial (now know as special needs) teacher for 500 pupils, and at the end of the day, education is a matter of how the classroom is managed and not how many people are in it!

I would put the top class education I got...down to the zero-tolerance discipline apporach* taken by the school principal and his willingness to call parents in at the drop of a hat to sit down and discuss any problems along with the class* teacher, and not down to the number of pupils in the classroom itself.

edit* Spelling

ballooba

I'm glad that 70-80% of your class are doing so well 99er. This is in stark conrast to areas of the inner city (Dublin) where less than 10% finish 2nd level.

In my own national school (small rural village) the people who went on third level are in the small minority. Not that many finished secondary school.

In classes of that size, the strongest survive. It also helps when you get help at home too. People shouldn't be held back because they don't have support at home.

K-9

ninty9er wrote:

While I hear ministers and the opposition wailing about class sizes in primary schools, I just shake my head in disbelief....I attended a primary school of approx 500 pupils....Never once in my 8 years there was I in a class of less than 29 and generally the figure was 31-32.

It has not done me or any of those other pupils one iota of harm and at an estimate, at least 70-80% of the guys and girls in my 6th class cohort are now (to the best of my knowledge) in 3rd level or are undertaking trades....there was 1 full time remedial (now know as special needs) teacher for 500 pupils, and at the end of the day, education is a matter of how the classroom is managed and not how many people are in it!

I would put the top class education I got...down to the zero-tolerance discipline apporache taken by the school principal and his willingness to call parents in at the drop of a hat to sit down and discuss any problems along with the calss teacher, and not down to the number of pupils in the classroom itself.

Good point.

As for the ESB, it will be moved to a separate semi-state body, which the ESB unions have a problem with. There will be no job cuts and still the unions have a problem. The unions blame the Govt. for the price increases of the last few years, prices that the ESB sought due to rising costs, including wages. IMO, these changes won't make the sector any worse.

To me this sounds like unions throwing the rattle out of the pram because something might actually change and there might be some competition:)

I think if there was a full strike and electricity blackouts the public would lose what little sympathy they would have for the unions very quickly.

K-9

ballooba wrote:

I'm glad that 70-80% of your class are doing so well 99er. This is in stark conrast to areas of the inner city (Dublin) where less than 10% finish 2nd level.

In my own national school (small rural village) the people who went on third level are in the small minority. Not that many finished secondary school.

In classes of that size, the strongest survive. It also helps when you get help at home too. People shouldn't be held back because they don't have support at home.

That is changing. Inner city levels in 3rd Level are slowly increasing. Blame Lab for free fees for all, including Michael O'Leary, when there should have been an income limit introduced, and the money saved given to disadvantaged areas. I don't want to make a political point, but Labour introduced free 3rd Level fees saying how it would benefit those areas. The problem is middle class areas benefitted more because they are more likely to go to 3rd Level. Just shows you it didn't work like they said it would. When Noel Dempsey suggested reform of this area he was castigated by the opposition including Labour.

There are more special needs/remedial teachers in primary schools despite the spin. The education system caters for the 30/20% minority more than ever before. This was brought in under a FF minister with more to come. I have personal experience of this from small rural villages and indeed small rural schools.

ballooba

Third level fees is not the issue for those kids when they are not even finishing 2nd level. There are a lot of other factors at play, but to say everything is hunky dory because pupils of a particular school are doing well is ridiculous.

K-9

I know 4 schools actually within 10 miles. One, because my son goes there, one because it's also in the village, tho of another faith, one from work colleagues and one from relations. I know teachers who went out of their way to make sure kids at 5/6 years of age got the proper education that was needed, which was accessible at that particular school. I'm not making a generalisation based on one school, though I'm sure the whole education system isn't perfect. It has come on leaps and bounds in the last (yes) 7/8 years.

I'm not saying there isn't problems at levels of the school system, but there has been great improvements. Name me a country with the perfect education system that doesn't have some flaws?

I'd say, IMO, the levels finishing 2nd level are higher than 10 years ago. Getting the others has other factors, as u say, including parents who value 15/16 year olds earning money more than education. The Govt. can't change kids upbringing that easily. What about parents letting their kids go truant from school and not basically caring about their kids education. There's very little the Govt. can do about that.

There has to be some level of parental responsibility and not big brother watching?

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

There has to be some level of parental responsibility and not big brother watching?

I believe all these issues are interconnected to a certain extent. I mentioned on another thread about allowing children of married parents be adopted. It is an important issue. Some people are unfit to be parents. Sometimes the best thing to do is take them away from those parents permanently.

Bertie announcing 4,000 new teaching posts 2 months before an election is a bit rich when the teachers have been crying out for this for years.

K-9

So everything, social inequality, education and health was supposed to have been solved under one Govt.

Sweden, Germany etc. etc. still not perfect and they have had a head start economically on us.

FF/PD's have made a lot of improvements in education. Why doubt that they can't deliver more?

K-9

ballooba wrote:

I believe all these issues are interconnected to a certain extent. I mentioned on another thread about allowing children of married parents be adopted. It is an important issue. Some people are unfit to be parents. Sometimes the best thing to do is take them away from those parents permanently.

Yes, mightn't be a bad idea if in the child's best interest. Imagine the uproar from civil liberties groups.

Remember the uproar in England when punishing parents for child truancy was introduced? IMO was the right decision. If the Govt. can't force children to go to school well then parents have to.

Compulsory 2nd level educatiion to leaving cert. and let the parents defend the decision if they don't like it!

ballooba

Seanies32 wrote:

So everything, social inequality, education and health was supposed to have been solved under one Govt.

They haven't moved on the adoption issue either. It has been raised on several occasions. It's a constitutional issue.

Seanies32 wrote:

FF/PD's have made a lot of improvements in education. Why doubt that they can't deliver more?

They should have done more in the last ten years. I'm not saying they have worsened the situations in our schools, but the world doesn't stand still either. So in real terms they haven't improved the situation.

We are miles behind the UK in terms of technology in the classroom for instance. I look at the IT stuff my sister does as a primary teacher. The mind boggles exactly where they come up with the stuff. It's pointless. Stuff like teaching teachers HTML. Why?

ISAW

miju wrote:

jaysis lads going wayyy of topic here aint ye

ISAW sorry you dont like my graphs seeing as how i've posted links is there anything you'd like to post to back up your view seeing as how your so big on the whole evidence thing

Well yeah. I met a developer this morning and had a chat. I found it strange he was selling houses in 1986/7 for twenty something thousand I think. and he was saying they were pissed off then if people asked for a converted garage since they only made 500 puunds a house as regards 1000 withour it ! I mentioned I was listening to housing Minister Ahern abd about the daft graphs. (by the wasy I NEVER said I doidnt like tham) and he said Aherns figures were about right. The figure on the news this morning was 1600 housing units a week. That means two weeks builds are mope than the increase in numbers for sale on the market over six months by the Daft information! hard to believe but Im fairly sure it is true. and he (the Minister that is) also confirmed my suspicion about demand being met. I think he stated about 2014 before numbers built meet demand. It is off the top of my head but 25-30k a year for seven years is about 150,000 to 200,000 units. Now thats a rate higher than being built in the whole of the UK.

Yes I think privces will level or fall. I hope they do. I would be happy iof they halfed but amany specualtors wouldnt. But I dont think a dive is realistic. Nor would it be good for economic confidence. A good ten to twenty per cent drop followed by dropping duty (or better pulling all tax on say the first 100 or 200k of the price which effectively is a property tax on higher value property) would be good for people in the long run I think.

But dont forget construction is totally outstripping pharmachem at the moment . and pharmachem is a 35 billion a year export business. ten years ago it was a 5 billion a year exporter. what does construction export? what R and D do construction forms do?

ballooba

ISAW wrote:

But dont forget construction is totally outstripping pharmachem at the moment . and pharmachem is a 35 billion a year export business. ten years ago it was a 5 billion a year exporter. what does construction export? what R and D do construction forms do?

PharmaChem is an export industry. We need export to have a 'real' economy. We are losing PharmaChem jobs and gaining construction jobs. If Pfizer and Abbott are old technology, then where are our replacement BioPharma jobs?

There are jobs coming on stream, but they were announced a long time ago. We haven't had a new announcement in a long time.