Refused a certificate

ironsight

O.K folks,

I'm new on here and havent posted before so bear with me.
yesterday I was informed that I was being refused a firearms certificate for a Glock 9mm semi automatic. The grounds cited for refusal are

1. That a 9mm is no suitable for target shooting
2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre.
3. That a 9mm semi automatic is desigend as a military / police firearm

When I made the application I gave them
A copy of my club membership letter
A copy of my Countryside Alliance insurance card
The technical Specs on the pistol
Photograps of the 2 safe's (one for pistol & 1 for amunition)
Photographs of the house alarm, the triggerlock, the cable lock and the car safe.
And then he gives me this load of crap....

Can anyone enlighten me as to what I can do next.
thanks

Ironsight

Umiq88

What a load of boll*x

I take it you have club membership maybe you could get a letter off them stating that 9mm is the most used pistol round in target shooting and is shot by alot of members competitively at that range.

ironsight

yeah, I gave the Garda a whole load of paperwork for the application, they just cant be arsed to do their homework and look at who and what they are refusing.

What a load of BULL....

Dvs

ironsight wrote:

O.K folks,

I'm new on here and havent posted before so bear with me.
yesterday I was informed that I was being refused a firearms certificate for a 9mm semi automatic. the grounds cited for refusal are

1. That a 9mm is no suitable for target shooting
2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre.
3. That a 9mm semi automatic is desigend as a military / police firearm

Can anyone enlightem me as to what I can do next.
thanks

Ironsight

Hello Ironsight,

ironsight wrote:

1. That a 9mm is no suitable for target shooting

9mm is suitable for target shooting,
it is used to shoot targets wordwide by millions of shooters in various disciplines.

ironsight wrote:

2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre.

It is used in competitive shooting wordwide.

Thankfully, the shooting disciplines that are Olympic events,
are only a very small part of competitive shooting disciplines wordwide,
what hope would most people have to take part in the Oylmpics,
even if they wanted to in any sport not only shooting.

Would it be a valid argument that,
if you were not going to take part in the world cup at some point,
that you could not play football or take part in any sport that involved any type of ball,
because those types of ball games are not Olympics events.

ironsight wrote:

3. That a 9mm semi automatic is desigend as a military / police firearm

Just because the Military or Police use something,
does not make it, inherently "Military or Police".

They also use firearms of all calibres from .22 up.

They also use
vehicles from,
bicycles, cars, 4x4, vans, ridged trucks up,
tents, green clothes, blue clothes, black clothes, boots, shoes,
food and toilet paper!

just because they use these items does not make them,
inherently "Military or Police" either.

ironsight wrote:

Can anyone enlightem me as to what I can do next.
thanks

Contact your Solicitor,
tell him/her that you wish to take your case to the district court,
as you are entitled to do under the firearms act and it's ammendments.

Dvs.

ginoguns39

ironsight wrote:

O.K folks,

I'm new on here and havent posted before so bear with me.
yesterday I was informed that I was being refused a firearms certificate for a Glock 9mm semi automatic. The grounds cited for refusal are

1. That a 9mm is no suitable for target shooting
2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre.
3. That a 9mm semi automatic is desigend as a military / police firearm

When I made the application I gave them
A copy of my club membership letter
A copy of my Countryside Alliance insurance card
The technical Specs on the pistol
Photograps of the 2 safe's (one for pistol & 1 for amunition)
Photographs of the house alarm, the triggerlock, the cable lock and the car safe.
And then he gives me this load of crap....

Can anyone enlighten me as to what I can do next.
thanks

Ironsight

hi,has your super given you this excuse in writing? if so i would suggest you change from countryside alliance to the n.a.r.g.c. become a member and get onto your rep a.s.a.p., as it is quite costly to go it alone through your own solicitor.the n.a.r.g.c. will represent you free of charge.an english insurance company isnt much good in ireland.look at the great representation in the u.k.? €60 for the n.a.r.g.c. or €€€€€€€€ for a solicitor? hmmmm tough one. best of luck

rrpc

ironsight wrote:

2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre

Not strictly true

ISSF Pistol 8.4.4.4 wrote:

25 m Center Fire Pistol:

Any Center Fire Pistol, except single shot, of caliber 7.62 mm to
9.65 mm (.30” - .38”) may be used, that conforms to the
specification in 8.16.0.

ISSF Center Fire Pistol is an Olympic discipline. The specification in 8.16.0 refers to trigger weight, dimensions of the pistol (the box size it must fit into), the maximum barrel length and sight radius and the ineligibility of muzzle brakes, compensators or perforated barrels.

The Glock 9mm would possibly be ineligible by reason of one or more of the latter, but the statement that 9mm is not an olympic calibre is wrong. However, AFAIK, none of the more widely used pistols in this discipline are available in 9mm, .32 would be the most popular.

That said, you wouldn't get very far in 25m pistol with the Glock

packas

9mm practically dominates Production Division in IPSC shooting. The pistol that dominates production division is a Glock 9mm. So your pistol is a very popular competition pistol.

If you're not familar with IPSC it's an internationl sport for rifle, shotgun & pistol shooting. Here in Ireland it's relatively new with pistols being the main area of focus at the moment. It's one of the safest sports you can compete in. In it's 30 year history there's never been an accident. That's a fine testiment to the high standards of safety that are thought and practiced by all who compete.

The Euroopena championships are being held in France this year. Shooters from Ireland will be competing.

The Gardai are unfortunately still relatively un-educated regarding shooting sports and it's up to the applicant to educate them. Here's an example:-
In my application for an increase in my ammo I provided prrof that I was competing internationally in IPSC shooting. Once I had a legitimate reason there was no problem.

Please refer to http://www.ipsc-ireland.org/ and http://www.ipsc.org/ for more details on practical shooting.
Here's an extract from the IPSC web site:-
Today, the International Practical Shooting Confederation is promoted in more than sixty countries (called Regions) from Argentina to Zimbabwe. Every year, the elected representatives of these Regions meet at the IPSC General Assembly.
In practical shooting, the competitor must try to blend accuracy, power, and speed, into a winning combination. Targets are 75 centimeters by 45 centimeters with a 15 centimeter center representing the "A zone" or bullseye. Most shooting takes place at close range, with rare shots out to 45 meters. Hitting a 15 centimeter A zone at 45 meters or less might seem easy to an experienced pistol shooter, but in IPSC only full power pistols are allowed (9mm or larger). This power minimum reflects the heritage of this modern sport, and mastering a full power handgun is considerably more difficult than shooting a light recoiling target pistol especially when the competitor is trying to go as fast as possible. Time, also plays a factor. In Comstock scored stages, the scores are divided by the time, adding to the challenge. Competitors may enter any one of five Divisions depending on the style of firearm they use
Multiple targets, moving targets, targets that react when hit, penalty carrying targets mixed-in, or even partially covering shoot targets, obstacles, movement, competitive tactics, and, in general, any other relevant difficulty the course designer can dream up all combine to keep the competitors enthusiastic and the spectators entertained. While the rules of IPSC state that the course of fire should be practical and diversity is to be encouraged, to keep the sport from becoming too formalized or standardized. In fact, some matches even contain surprise stages where no one knows in advance what to expect.
Although the roots are martial in origin, the sport matured from these beginnings, just as karate, fencing, or archery developed from their origins. Now, IPSC shooting is an international sport, emphasizing safety and safe gun handling, accuracy, power, and speed, in major competitions around the globe. The crowning glory for practical shooting is to become the IPSC World Champion.

regards,
Pat.

bullets

ginoguns39 wrote:

i would suggest you change from countryside alliance to the n.a.r.g.c. become a member and get onto your rep a.s.a.p., as it is quite costly to go it alone through your own solicitor.the n.a.r.g.c. will represent you free of charge.

The n.a.r.g.c. appears to be all about Game shooting and conservation.
Someone suggested I join this as well before.

While (free) help I am sure would be more than welcome
I thought it would be odd for a body like this to represent you
How would they relate to a paper puncher or someone that wants a Handgun ?
(ie someone with a handgun is unlikely to go around shooting game so
how would they argue in court if they represent game conservation)

Also wondering would the NRAI be more suited or do they help in any way?
Did not see any way of becoming a member of this or what uou had to do or
needed or even if it was open to new members.

Would a 9mm Pistol be considered F-Class even though its not a long rifle?

~B

civdef

The NARGC will rightfully take a dim view of just joining them for free legal aid for a situation that developed before you join, They've stated they will not represent people in such cases.

It's cases like this that make me think that at least applying to the commissioner for a licence wouldn't be so bad in at least one way, level playing field across the country.

macnas

I had a similar response from the super when he refused my pistol application, olympic this and olympic that, including that old favourite, 'a .45 calibre can kill at a distance of up to one mile'. I made an appointment to see him and before we had even sat down to talk, he said, 'you won't be gettin this handgun, I saw a man being shot four times with a 9mm', what he didn't tell me then was that John Carty was the unfortunate individual that had been shot or that the gardai were the ones that were doing the shooting.
Anyway, after about 40 min of trying to convince him I wasn't nuts and a mixture of the rrpc/packas arguements above, he said maybe, a couple of months later, I had the pistol. He probably still thinks I'm nuts though.:D

Sparks

ginoguns39 wrote:

i would suggest you change from countryside alliance to the n.a.r.g.c. become a member and get onto your rep a.s.a.p., as it is quite costly to go it alone through your own solicitor.the n.a.r.g.c. will represent you free of charge.an english insurance company isnt much good in ireland.look at the great representation in the u.k.? €60 for the n.a.r.g.c. or €€€€€€€€ for a solicitor? hmmmm tough one. best of luck

Okay, can we please not dive into the whole NARGC vs CAI insurance scrap? Lots of people use both and are quite happy with both.

The others above nailed it on the head, by the way - 9mm is not a calibre permitted for olympic events (today - up until '72 it was, but rising costs of land for ranges and safety zones and increasing pressure of space in the olympic village saw it being dropped from the programme along with 300m rifle), but it is permitted for ISSF events, and is a dominant calibre in IPSC and similar events. The key here to an easy life is not to charge down the court route straight away, but to try to show the super that his fears are groundless. And frankly, a degree of understanding is needed on both sides - he's in the wrong for his statements on technical matters, but it's more than likely that he has no training to cover this, and if something goes wrong, it is meant to be his posterior in the slicer. If it was your posterior on the line, and you knew nothing of target shooting but did see firearms crime in every newspaper and an election coming up for your bosses, you would probably be as overly cautious as he is being.

Were I in your shoes, I'd go back and talk to the man again iron, and this time go in there with photos of competitions, with safety course certs from the IPSA, maybe even a letter from them saying you were a competitor in good standing with safety courses done. I'd show him the safe you've gotten and the security you've put in place to store the gun, and I'd show him photos of the range you're going to shoot on and even it's location on a map, and a letter from the club saying you were a member. To put all that together is two emails (one to the club, one to the IPSA), and about a half-hour on the net printing photos. Say a total of two hours of work including the meeting, spread over a few days. That's comparable to the work you put into a driving licence's paperwork, which is fair enough really.

Now, if at that point he is still recalcitrant, remain polite, ask for a signed letter stating that you were refused and why, tell him that you intend to take the matter to the district court (and I don't mean as a threat, just let him know that you're serious about the licence) and then walk to your solicitors office and ask for him or her to set up a district court hearing. Just remember through all of it that it's not worth getting upset over it and that if you do, odds are that it won't work to your favour...

ps. I'd log everything you've done to this point and from this point on as well, just in case.

Sparks

bullets wrote:

How would they relate to a paper puncher or someone that wants a Handgun ?
(ie someone with a handgun is unlikely to go around shooting game so
how would they argue in court if they represent game conservation)

I thought so too at first, but as civ explained to me, in some countries, it's mandatory to carry a sidearm when hunting for a coup de grace in the event of a bad shot. At close range, it's easier to point a pistol than a rifle, and thus more humane.

Also, the NARGC recently amended its rules to allow target shooters to join and at present they're taking 70-odd cases against gardai for licencing grievances, many of which would be for target shooters.

Also wondering would the NRAI be more suited or do they help in any way?

Not sure, but they are more rifle than pistol as I understand it. Perhaps someone from the NRAI could comment?

Did not see any way of becoming a member of this or what uou had to do or
needed or even if it was open to new members.

I'd send them an email and ask.

Would a 9mm Pistol be considered F-Class even though its not a long rifle?

Probably not...

macnas

Sparks wrote:

recalcitrant

–adjective
1. resisting authority or control; not obedient or compliant; refractory.
2. hard to deal with, manage, or operate.
–noun
3. a recalcitrant person.

ironsight

This is all very good stuff and quiet helpful, however the sad fact is that I have already given the Inspector who is acting up all of this information, I have however learned that this is his standard reply to all requests for pistols larger than .22

At present I am aware of 5 people in this area who have made applications, all of which have been turned down including one by a member of the army.

sidneyreilly

What district are you in Iron?

Sparks

ironsight wrote:

This is all very good stuff and quiet helpful, however the sad fact is that I have already given the Inspector who is acting up all of this information, I have however learned that this is his standard reply to all requests for pistols larger than .22
At present I am aware of 5 people in this area who have made applications, all of which have been turned down including one by a member of the army.

Iron, did he sign a letter to you stating why you were refused? Or did he just tell you?

edit: Whoa there, stall the digger. Did you just say Inspector? Not the Superintendent?

civdef

Inspector acting up as a super.

ironsight

As to the district, Well I fall under the Coolock district of DMR North.

And yeah, the Inspector is acting up as the Super intendent, he has been stuck in that position for over 18 months now and there are no signs of him getting the promotion as he is due to retire shortly..

ironsight

O.K here we go just to make things interesting, I want to see as many replies as possible to all of this

I am a member of a gun club
I am a member of the countryside alliance
The club has a Range which has been accepted by the Garda as an approved range for pistols up to and including .454
I have a security clearance from the Dept. of Justice
I asked for a certificate in respect of a Glock 9mm pistol
I gave details and photographs of the pistol safe
I gave details and photographs of the ammunition safe
I gave details and photographs of the car safe for transport to the range
I gave details and photographs of the alarm fitted to the house
I have had the locks on the doors and windowsw upgraded to avoid problems with the security aspect of having a pistol in the house
I provided them with the spec from the ISSF on olympic pistols

its been expensive, its been frustrating,
And they still say no..... so now it looks as if I have no choice byt to take the legal route

Sparks

ironsight wrote:

I provided them with the spec from the ISSF on olympic pistols

Ah. You gave him the ISSF spec on Olympic pistols and asked for a glock. I can see how someone might get off on the wrong foot there. Still, he's overreacting.

Anyway, next step is to call your solicitor, tell him that you've been refused a firearms cert and that you want to file an appeal in the District Court under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 15A (1)(b). Remember that you have only 30 days from the time the Inspector gave you the letter refusing you to lodge that appeal.

(Technically, you could do this all yourself without using a solicitor or barrister, but I really, really would not recommend it.)


edit:
By the way, if the other five refused pistol licences that you mentioned would be willing to sign statements, you could have your solicitor argue that this is a blanket precondition being applied and that this was ruled to be contrary to the Firearms Acts by Dunne v. Donoghue in the supreme court in 2002. But I wouldn't use that as your main argument as it's too easy to say that it isn't if even one person's gotten a pistol licence over .22lr in that district from that Inspector.

sidneyreilly

Is that the same as Swords Have a buddy in the same boat with an inspector there and he's shooting 30 years!

purple'n'gold

Take the traditional route. There is an election in the offing, go see your TD.

Sparks

Take the traditional route. There is an election in the offing, go see your TD.

Not a bad suggestion, though there is the concern that after the recent news interest in the letters TDs write that he might look at supporting an application for a Big Bad Glock as a bad move, so you'd want to take in all the material that was taken into the Inspector as well.

You'd also want to remember the 30 day limit too.

ironsight

sidneyreilly wrote:

Is that the same as Swords Have a buddy in the same boat with an inspector there and he's shooting 30 years!

Yeah.... same guy I regret to say

sidneyreilly

Legal route only way I'm afraid Iron:(

mcguiver

Before we all advise the legal route, a few quick questions:

Is this your first firearms cert?
If so have you been in trouble with the law? or close relatives/associates?
Have you got the refusal in writing?
Have you met face to face with the officer concerned?
If so, have you asked what pistols he is allowing?

ironsight

mcguiver wrote:

Before we all advise the legal route, a few quick questions:

Is this your first firearms cert?
If so have you been in trouble with the law? or close relatives/associates?
Have you got the refusal in writing?
Have you met face to face with the officer concerned?
If so, have you asked what pistols he is allowing?

Hi there McGuiver, in reply to your post ~

Is this your first firearms cert? In this country, yes it is

If so have you been in trouble with the law? No, I work for the Dept of Justice and have security clearance

or close relatives/associates? no.. all goodguys

Have you got the refusal in writing? yes, its all in writing

Have you met face to face with the officer concerned? no, I have never even been abnle to get the guy on a phone nevermind face to face

If so, have you asked what pistols he is allowing? .22 or nothing

Double Barrel

WOW

Take the .22 permit.
When that is secured, apply for the 9m. JMHO

bullets

ironsight wrote:

No, I work for the Dept of Justice and have security clearance

This bit has aroused my curiosity and I cant resist asking Security clearance for what exactly? Im not bashing yer post or anything It just spiked the curiosity
if your willing to tell the public ya got security clearance for something you
may be willing to clarify or give us some more info instead of us guessing!! :-)

~B

mosulli4

Ironsight,

There are of course 9mm target pistols, and I imagine a perception issue here.
What if you has applied for a HK USP Expert 9mm target pistol, and attached the factory catolog for this model. A quote from the catalog...

"Perhaps no other form of shooting demands more of a pistol than competitive target shooting. Whenever you step to the line, your skill and your equipment are tested to the maximum. Your equipment must work flawlessly over thousands of rounds. It was for this kind of environment that the USP Expert and USP Elite targetpistols were designed. Countless hours of
shooting by Research and Development personnel, factory technicians and mostimportantly, internationally renowned shooters, have all contributed to making the USP target models the best there are. Specifically
tailored for match shooting requirements, the USP Expert and Elite are exceptional target pistols."


Or else, why not a very civilian sounding HK USP Custom Sport from shoot.ie

http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_18&products_id=12

"The USP Custom Sport is a further variant of the USP series with only subtle differences from the standard USP series. Identical to the USP in most respects, the Custom Sport has a match grade barrel, extended floor plate on the magazine, match trigger and adjustable sights"

And there is always the CZ Champion or Tactical Sports models. These are all Sports pistols. Maybe this may help with your superintendants issue.


best of luck

mosulli4

Rafer

Hi As this is your First Firearms application(please hear me out) why dont you
accept the .22 Licence, become proficient with it .With a 22 pistol you can practice twice as much (for the same money) as the guy using a 9mm. All the time you will be building up a history of Range use , Competitions no matter at what level . and ammunition used . Keep a log ,and ask an Officer of the Club to sign it each month .Keep this for 1 year and then when you apply for a larger calibre you can demonstrate to your Firearms Officer that you are serious about your Sport/Hobby. I belive your application would succeed.
On a personal note I am of the opinion that if a person has never held a Firearms Licence and they wish to apply for a Pistol /Revolver as a first licence the should only be permitted a .22 calibre licence.
Call it a trainning licence if you like .I know a lot of people wont like this but firearms take a lot of getting used to and we all had to start somewhere . So do your Safety Courses and get on the Range and practice
BE SAFE ! and HAVE FUN:)