Refused a certificate

fathersymes

Had similar problems with getting my .223. Mention of Court had the permit issued very quickly indeed.

Remember this, Gardai are civil servants employed to uphold and enforce the Law, not to introduce their own interpretations of the Law.

Take him to Court, embarass him, let him be told by a Judge he must obey the Law. Im sick of these civil servants acting like legislators.

Rew

fathersymes wrote:

Remember this, Gardai are civil servants employed to uphold and enforce the Law, not to introduce their own interpretations of the Law.

There actually taught in Templemore that .22 is the maximum permitted caliber under Irish law by their law lecturer.

Rovi

Rew wrote:

There actually taught in Templemore that .22 is the maximum permitted caliber under Irish law by their law lecturer.

I wonder what other 'laws' he's teaching them?

Sparks

He's just a tad out of date there allright...

Rew

Rovi wrote:

I wonder what other 'laws' he's teaching them?

Well generally the stuff is failry spot on but the the 2006 stuff hasnt been rolled in yet. The .22 idea seems to come from one particualr paragraph that defiens a sporting firearm as being .22.

Ultimalty there not getting the training and support and thats why there are so many issues with regards licences.

Sparks

Ultimalty there not getting the training and support and thats why there are so many issues with regards licences.

Nail, Head, Wallop.

Sparks

Mind you, the job of teaching the Gardai about firearms law isn't made much easier by this sort of thing:
Criminal Justice Bill 2007.
Which amends the Firearms Act (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 2006). Granted, they're amending stuff that has been commenced, and it's sentencing rather than licencing, but you'd think that they'd leave the law in place for more than three months before changing it!

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Criminal Justice Bill 2007.

Three words spring to mind:

Election, Deckchairs, Titanic.....

Vegeta

Rew wrote:

Ultimalty there not getting the training and support and thats why there are so many issues with regards licences.

spot on.

Not every garda needs this type of training either. If the FAO and the Super of every district took the training it might go a long way.

Who would be responsible for organising that type of training does anyone know, gardai themselves, McDowell, the government....?

Rew

Vegeta wrote:

Not every garda needs this type of training either. If the FAO and the Super of every district took the training it might go a long way.

There actually no such thing as an FAO, its a term thats been made up by either a few Gardaí who choose to deal with certs in a station or us shooters. Any Garda can fill in the form and then the station Sgt processes it and passes it up to the Super.

Sparks

True, but it's a useful term to have Rew.

Vegeta

Rew wrote:

There actually no such thing as an FAO, its a term thats been made up by either a few Gardaí who choose to deal with certs in a station or us shooters. Any Garda can fill in the form and then the station Sgt processes it and passes it up to the Super.

So does the system need changing for there to be a dedicated FAO(maybe the Sergeant) who has suitable training?

I have relatively no trouble with my license applications but that's not saying its flawless

sidneyreilly

Double Barrel wrote:

Take the .22 permit.
When that is secured, apply for the 9m. JMHO

Wont work with this inspector as far as I'm told. This one dosnt mind being taken to court, in fact it means he can say "the court did it not me"

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

So does the system need changing for there to be a dedicated FAO(maybe the Sergeant) who has suitable training?

It wouldn't be a bad idea, but that was the original reason given for the restricted firearms list - that all applications would go through a central, trained group of gardai. So it can cut both ways.

Rew

Sparks wrote:

True, but it's a useful term to have Rew.

Not when it presnts the false idea that the Garda someone is dealing with is a "Fire Arms Officer". Titles normally imply a qualifaction or that they have been asigned to be in that position where in this case the position dosn't even exist.

Sparks

'Cept that in this case, they're usually told "right Jimmy, you're handling the gun licences". Which is an assignment. And besides, the alternative "the gardai who was handling my application at the time" is a bit of a mouthful.

ironsight

bullets wrote:

This bit has aroused my curiosity and I cant resist asking Security clearance for what exactly? Im not bashing yer post or anything It just spiked the curiosity
if your willing to tell the public ya got security clearance for something you
may be willing to clarify or give us some more info instead of us guessing!! :-)

~B

Anybody working for the Department of Justice must have a security clearance that means the gardi look into your background, check for criminal background and associates and so on..

thats all

ironsight

Anyone who works for the Dept. of Justice must undergo a background check to ensure they are not a security risk and that they have no connections with the criminal fraternity and or anti state / social elements.

Sparks

ironsight wrote:

Anybody working for the Department of Justice must have a security clearance that means the gardi look into your background, check for criminal background and associates and so on..
thats all

And not just the DoJ either. Lots of Telecom Eireann employees who worked in the UK got them as well, even though they were just fixing phone lines, and there are lots of other jobs that get people vetted, many of which you wouldn't immediately think of. Ironsight could be on the minister's staff or he could be the janitor - either way, he'd need security clearance.

ironsight

Sparks wrote:

And not just the DoJ either. Lots of Telecom Eireann employees who worked in the UK got them as well, even though they were just fixing phone lines, and there are lots of other jobs that get people vetted, many of which you wouldn't immediately think of. Ironsight could be on the minister's staff or he could be the janitor - either way, he'd need security clearance.

Quiet correct Sparks....

maybe i should look for a job as his janitor.. it might make life easier when it comes to getting a cert

Rew

Army (PDF and RDF) and Gardaí get the same checks.

Rew

Sparks wrote:

'Cept that in this case, they're usually told "right Jimmy, you're handling the gun licences". Which is an assignment. And besides, the alternative "the gardai who was handling my application at the time" is a bit of a mouthful.

Not so sure that is the case TBH no offical assignemt anyway. Most gardaí have never heard the term FAO

Rovi

ironsight wrote:

Quiet correct Sparks....

maybe i should look for a job as his janitor.. it might make life easier when it comes to getting a cert

You could always be our 'mole' within the Department.

Kramer

ironsight wrote:

Anyone who works for the Dept. of Justice must undergo a background check to ensure they are not a security risk and that they have no connections with the criminal fraternity and or anti state / social elements.

ironsight wrote:

Anybody working for the Department of Justice must have a security clearance that means the gardi look into your background, check for criminal background and associates and so on...

So, basically the same checks applied to anyone applying applying for a firearms certificate (theoretically!) .

ironsight

Kramer wrote:

So, basically the same checks applied to anyone applying applying for a firearms certificate (theoretically!) .

more or less the same checks ~ Yeah !

ironsight

Jesus ~ I cant even get a firearms cert, never mind anything else

mcguiver

Dont we know how to waffle off subject here. BAN THE WAFFLERS!!!

Yes we all know the Gardai have very little training in this area...because they dont need it..... it's miniscule compared to the rest of their work.

Well, to be honest I haven't heard of anyone who applied for a 9mm pistol as their first firearms cert not having lots of hasstle.
It's almost impossible to get a Super on the phone (or inspector acting as), it's like ringing the phone company to complain to the managing director. Try making an appointment through his office or better still, write by registered post to the Supers office.

Look at things from their point of view,
They want to know if you have been competing here in Ireland etc. have you a genuine interest in the sport,
ask any of the firearms dealers how many people suddenly developed an interrest in shooting when pistols re-appeared on the scene.
The last thing any copper wants is to be named as the guy who granted a licence to the guy who went nuts with a gun.

A 22. pistol is a good start, and once you've a licence it's hard to give grounds to refuse changing to 9mm.

Working for D.O.J. should be a big bonus, talk to the right people there and they might have the right contacts.

jaycee

This is probably going to be an unpopular point of view , but here go's...

If this is indeed your first ever Firearms Cert application , then I would consider a positive response to any sort of pistol application a bonus. It's not a refusal , it's a compromise and a pretty good one too.

It may not be written up in law anywhere , but the way it usually works is on a sort of gradual merit basis . I don't consider it a totally daft practice either, we need people to develop their experience and firearms safety skills in a logical and progressive manner.

The way it used to work "In the real world" , was that you applied for a .17 air rifle as a first firearm , you then graduated after a while to .22Lr or a Shotgun , and having proved yourself of no danger to the public or yourself gradually moved up to better or at least bigger things.

I'd go for the .22 Pistol , which is already a huge jump up on the ladder of trust and responsibility , thank him for the advice and discuss the fact that eventually you intend progressing to something bigger as your skills improve.
Talk about the type of competitions you are interested in, he will have been through some pistol training himself. Ask him how he found it and he may have some good shooting tips for you.

Don't make the mistake of getting everyone's backs up at the start of your shooting career , failing the "Attitude test" will almost surely create problems for you down the road.

My two cents worth.

Riggser

Rafer wrote:

Hi As this is your First Firearms application(please hear me out) why dont you
accept the .22 Licence, become proficient with it .With a 22 pistol you can practice twice as much (for the same money) as the guy using a 9mm. All the time you will be building up a history of Range use , Competitions no matter at what level . and ammunition used . Keep a log ,and ask an Officer of the Club to sign it each month .Keep this for 1 year and then when you apply for a larger calibre you can demonstrate to your Firearms Officer that you are serious about your Sport/Hobby. I belive your application would succeed.
On a personal note I am of the opinion that if a person has never held a Firearms Licence and they wish to apply for a Pistol /Revolver as a first licence the should only be permitted a .22 calibre licence.
Call it a trainning licence if you like .I know a lot of people wont like this but firearms take a lot of getting used to and we all had to start somewhere . So do your Safety Courses and get on the Range and practice
BE SAFE ! and HAVE FUN:)

I agree, in regards to a novice starting in the sport. I don't agree with it as a rule of thumb. If you want and can apply for a particular firearm there should be no need to jump through hoops, if proven on all accounts that you satisfy all legal requirements and beyond.

ironsight

Riggser wrote:

I agree, in regards to a novice starting in the sport. I don't agree with it as a rule of thumb. If you want and can apply for a particular firearm there should be no need to jump through hoops, if proven on all accounts that you satisfy all legal requirements and beyond.

Why should I have to settle for less than what I want..

I have previously owned and carried a .357 python revolver,
( I EDITED THIS BIT "that said it was not in this jurisdiction"

I have to admit I couldnt shoot it to save my life.. far to big