Refused a certificate

Trojan911

ironsight wrote:

Is this your first firearms cert? In this country, yes it is

If you have had firearms in another country then can you contact the issuing authorities in that country & ask for written comfirmation of this?

I am suggesting this because I had three handguns in the UK, a .22 semi-auto, a 9mm semi-auto and a .357 (686) revolver & requested confirmation of this through the Firearms Enquiry Team (F.E.T) in the Met, it was sent to me and this was also handed in with my Irish firearms application to help with the process of my application.

If you have had firearms in the UK, especially London, PM me with your details and any cert numbers & I will have a confirmation letter sent to you or I can put you in touch with someone who can help.

Hope that helps...


TJ911...

ironsight

Nice idea ~ THANKS

Hezz700

Sorry to rain on your parade Ironsight but i reckon if you have a chance of a .22 you should go for it. If i was a Super(i'm not) i would be apprehensive about handing out pistol permits to first timers. Take the .22, give it a 12 months and reapply. you will find it a much easier route with no legal bills to pay.
The Court system should only be used as a last desperate measure unless of course your happy to further line the pockets of already wealth laden barristers.:rolleyes:

Christ man be sensible about it!

rrpc

There seems to be some sort of snobbery involved with .22 pistols, people seem to be considering them too small and too effeminate to be anything other than toys!

Personally, I have fired .22, .32, 9mm and .44 pistols and found the .22 no less a challenge than any of the others. To me the advantage of the .22 is the ammo is cheaper, and no different from my rifle ammo, so I wouldn't have to keep two different types.

Secondly, the .22 gives you access to a lot more ranges than a 9mm would. Having been through the authorisation process in Rathdrum, a lot of ranges won't want to go the extra expense for higher calibres, because it is a significant increase.

As some of you may already know, we have installed electronic targets on our range, and these will be used for 25m Pistol competitions. This is a very demanding discipline with 4 x 5 shot series 2 in 150 secs 1 in 20 secs and 1 in 10 secs repeated 4 times. The first 5 shots in the 150 sec stage are for sighters.

To add to that, the black aiming mark is 200mm in diameter and the 10 ring is 50mm in diameter. When you've taken all that in, go and look at the Walther GSP or the IZH35M.

.22 is not something to turn your nose up at.

sidneyreilly

rrpc wrote:

.22 is not something to turn your nose up at.

RRPC, I dont think anyone is turning up their noses at it. I love .22 personally but the issue here is that Irons local wont grant a fullbore but will grant .22. If anyone is turning noses up it's said inspector. There have as we know been as many incidents with smallbore as fullbore (possibly not gangland in Dublin).

On the earlier points of taking the .22 and after time the inspecter will look more kindly on your application for a fullbore, not this guy. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have a buddy in the same district, shooting and owning Smallbore,fullbore rifles some 30 years and has had .22 pistol for going on 3 years and he still cant get an upgrade:(

Bananaman

I have been following this thread with interest as I will be applying for my FAC quite soon and I also will be applying for a Glock 9mm. It's very good to see the range of advice being offered.

I have been a member of a range with a Fullbore pistol range for a couple of years now and have progressed from .22 revolver up through everything to a .45 auto using club guns.

Last year I attended and completed the course to attain my IPSC competition license. I have competed in a number of both static and dynamic competitons in the club using club guns but now would like to attend competions both around Ireland and abroad.

You may not join the IPSA without a FAC regardless of whether you have a competition license so I may not attend an IPSA sanctioned cometition even in my own club using a club gun

This means that I now NEED to purchase a firearm in order to progress in competition.
I am renting my house and have got the ok for the safe - this was not easy and is not something you can be sure of being allowed.
I have purchased a safe, have the house alarmed etc
I have applied for clearance from she who must be obeyed - that SHOULD be the hard part
The club will provide me with all the necessary paperwork.
I have only ever had interaction with Na Garda Suiochana twice - both occasions being passport applications and have no skeletons in my closet or know anyone who does.

The minimum calibre allowed in IPSC is 9mm so that is the minimum that is of any use to me - I have done all my practice and courses using a Glock 34 and hence this is the type of firerm I am looking to purchase.

I am hoping this will go smoothly as I have a definite "use" for it and have fulfiled all the criteria (If I won a few of the cometitions it might go better for me )

We will see......

Trojan911

rrpc wrote:

There seems to be some sort of snobbery involved with .22 pistols, people seem to be considering them too small and too effeminate to be anything other than toys!

Ah, but there is a difference in banging a .22 and a .357. The .22 I had was fun and was accurate but got boring after a while, I actually bought it for the then girlfriend of the time. The blast of the .357 was far superior, I would describe it as getting a smack in the face everytime I fired it (no I'm not into BDSM )

Then there is the buzz of a 9mm Uzi and the 9mm semi auto the .38 and the MP5 I used at the range all fun guns as well, toys for the boys etc. It is a pity there there are not enough ranges here to facilitate the bigger calibre, but maybe there will be in time..... Ahhh the good old days.....


TJ911...

ironsight

There would indeed appear to be as you say some snobbery as regards the use of a .22 pistol, some people see that as to small.

Personally over the years I have fired, various pistols, each and every one is a challenge in its own unique way. But having left one club and joined another because it has an approved range I would expect to be in a position to avail of it, and to partake in IPSA competition.

ironsight

Bananaman wrote:

I have been following this thread with interest as I will be applying for my FAC quite soon and I also will be applying for a Glock 9mm. It's very good to see the range of advice being offered.

I am hoping this will go smoothly as I have a definite "use" for it and have fulfiled all the criteria (If I won a few of the cometitions it might go better for me )

We will see......

Well bananaman.... all I will say on this one is Good Luck, I certainly hope you faie off better than I did. keeping my fingers crossed for you...

ironsight

I just read with interest ( o.k I admit I had to stop re-read and scratch my head a few times ) the judgement in the case and to give it its full and correct tittle:

MARTIN DUNNE AND THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL GAME COUNCILS SUING BY ITS ADMINISTRATOR/DIRECTOR, DESMOND CROFTON ON BEHALF OF ALL ITS MEMBERS AND BRENDAN McLOUGHLIN
APPLICANTS/ RESPONDENTS
AND
GARDA SUPERINTENDENT K G DONOHOE, PATRICK O’TOOLE, IRELAND AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
RESPONDENTS/APPELLANTS

Though I am not a Solicitor (thankfully-but i wouldnt mind their money) I noted with interest this section

"I wish to state that this court expresses no concluded view as to how far a superintendent may go in the context of the exercise of his powers under s.4(b) of the Act of 1925 other than indicating that he may not impose preconditions of the nature sought to be imposed by the commissioner in this case and the commissioner is not entitled to interfere with the superintendent in the exercise of his functions under the Act.”

This would indicate to me as though the court in its wisdom were leaving the door open as it were to further scrutiny

If anyone else is so inclined as to wish to read the judgement here is the link.

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/597645521f07ac9a80256ef30048ca52/31682b4761bedd2680256cd7001e266c?OpenDocument

Sparks

This would indicate to me as though the court in its wisdom were leaving the door open as it were to further scrutiny

Actually in context, they were saying that they weren't ruling on it one way or the other. And if you read the earlier line:

I am of the opinion that the provisions of [s.4(b)] of the 1925 Act are such as not to restrict the ambit to consideration as to the personal attributes of an applicant for a firearm certificate but may relate to the circumstances in which he/she may have a firearm in his/her possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

Then it becomes a bit clearer. The High Court were saying that blanket preconditions were the purview of the Dail; but individual ones were another matter.

vlmaxis

Bananaman wrote:

You may not join the IPSA without a FAC regardless of whether you have a competition license so I may not attend an IPSA sanctioned competition even in my own club using a club gun......

This is ridiculous, I am a member of the IPSA and I have my FAC, but I think this rule is a load of crap.
Think about this for a minute, if someone goes out to buy a gun just so they can become a member of the IPSA and do the course, get their licence, what happens if the gun doesnt suit them or the gun is not suitable for IPC, what then?, surely the IPSA should be trying to help guys to buy the right equipment first time, (god knows it is hard enough to get an FAC without having to look for an amendment a few weeks later) that way the member has started off on the right track, from a safety point of view this has to be more beneficial and from an organisational point it has to be better for the IPSA and individual clubs. Organisations are their to support their members, this does not look like its the case for the IPSA!. We all know this sport is still very new here, so help each other

Rosahane

Bananaman wrote:

Last year I attended and completed the course to attain my IPSC competition license....
You may not join the IPSA without a FAC regardless of whether you have a competition license so I may not attend an IPSA sanctioned cometition even in my own club using a club gun QUOTE]

If this is the case it seems slightly daft

OK, without your own pistol you would be restricted to competitions in your own club, but not allowing you to join the association seems to be a decision worthy of some Superintendents :eek:

ironsight

Is this a change of attitude by IPSA,
There was a time when membership was open to people who had not even applied for a FAC, it allowed them access to people with a wealth of experience, and created the opportunity for them to train with an eye to obtaining a competition licence and ultimatley their own FAC.

I dont know anyone on their committee but If memory serves correctly J.D Corcoran was the secretary of IPSC, I must try and contact him to verify this.

( Just edited this bit)

I had a quick look and I was correct, J.D. Corcoran was indeed their secretary and responsible for membership.. irrelevant, just proving a point to myself

sidneyreilly

vlmaxis wrote:

This is ridiculous, I am a member of the IPSA and I have my FAC, but I think this rule is a load of crap.
Think about this for a minute, if someone goes out to buy a gun just so they can become a member of the IPSA and do the course, get their licence, what happens if the gun doesnt suit them or the gun is not suitable for IPC, what then?,

True. How many people have gone off buying guns without trying them only to find the reality of it was they didnt suit them at all? Indeed Until you try a few courses of fire how do you know which one is best??

ironsight

Regretably, what I find most disturbing is the fact that during the course of making my own application, I was not afforded the courtesy of meeting with the Superintendent or in this case the Inspector.

The local Sgt who is supposedly only responsible for dealing with renewals took the details, he did not even fill out the application in front of me. He asked me my occupation, and asked me to sign the form, which itself was only a poor photocopy.
At no point was I permitted to state details as the the quantity of ammunition I would require. I am totaly unsatisfied with the way in which my application has been handled, and the Inspector has not seen fit to acknowlege my request for an appointment to meet with him.

mcguiver

Well, best of luck with the court route.
I think seeking advice from people who know the system before applying is the moral of the story here.

what_car

ironsight wrote:

O.K folks,

I'm new on here and havent posted before so bear with me.
yesterday I was informed that I was being refused a firearms certificate for a Glock 9mm semi automatic. The grounds cited for refusal are

1. That a 9mm is no suitable for target shooting
2. That a 9mm is not used in competition, as it is not an olympic calibre.
3. That a 9mm semi automatic is desigend as a military / police firearm

When I made the application I gave them
A copy of my club membership letter
A copy of my Countryside Alliance insurance card
The technical Specs on the pistol
Photograps of the 2 safe's (one for pistol & 1 for amunition)
Photographs of the house alarm, the triggerlock, the cable lock and the car safe.
And then he gives me this load of crap....

Can anyone enlighten me as to what I can do next.
thanks

Ironsight

i have never had a gun licence before. i want to take up target shooting, and like the look of the glock 17. reading the posts here i have seen other ppl with problems getting a licence for same.

has anyone here applied for a licence for a pistol in the louth/meath division?
if so how did you get on.?

before i submit my application to gardai can you give me some advice

do i need to be a member of a club for a specific length of time before i can apply for a licence?

i know ill have to have a monitored alarm and lock boxes to store it in.

i would like to know how people got on , in the louth/meath area with applications for a licence for handgun....9mm........ from what i read here it seems like there will be some difficulty in obtaining same.

what info should i send in with the application?

civdef

i have never had a gun licence before. i want to take up target shooting, and like the look of the glock 17.

Nothin personal, but those two sentences don't exactly inspire confidence in me.

what_car

civdef wrote:

Nothin personal, but those two sentences don't exactly inspire confidence in me.

what do you mean,....
im interested in target shooting, and getting started....... its a practical decision.....

i prefer handguns as they are less cumbersome and easier to transport , store and secure! i was planning on also not storing ammo in the house and purchasing just the amount required for trips to the range when required. also was planning on storing the gun broken down split over 2 lock boxes in different locations........

what are you on about.

fred funk }{

civdef wrote:

Nothin personal, but those two sentences don't exactly inspire confidence in me.

I don't see anything wrong with what he said. He has an interest in target shooting and he likes the look of a certain pistol, So what!

Sparks

what are you on about.

That if you've never used a firearm before, perhaps buying a fullbore pistol is not the best possible way to start? It's expensive, loud, and difficult to licence.

Perhaps starting with something else would make things easier for you - air pistol, for example, is not only a very challanging discipline (just ask, one of our fullbore pistol shooters tried his hand at air pistol recently and found it was quite a challange) that teaches you all the basics of firearms handling and target shooting, but it's far cheaper and far easier to licence and it's far easier to find ranges, as any range will do.

Plus, there's no reason you should be buying your own pistol on the first day. Join a club, use their club equipment to see if you like this sport as much as you think you will, and if you do, then splurge out the few hundred quid on equipment!

Vegeta

Ok so I assume you have been to a range and fired a pistol and got a taste for it and enjoyed it. This is good.

I am not taking swipes at you or anything but pistol shooting is very expensive and takes a great deal of dedication to get the licesnse.

people here will always raise eyebrows when people come on and ask "how do i get a pistol, I want a pistol etc etc" because it gets asked all the time.

Pistol shooting is great and is very enjoyable but it is not exactly novice friendly. Expense, difficulty of getting license and the dangers involved with handling firearms.

All firearms are potentially dangerous in the wrong or in-experienced hands, pistols are very pointable by nature and it only takes a flick of the wrist to accidently point the gun at a range officer or fellow range shooter.

I like the fact you want to get into shooting. The more safe and responsible shooters the better. Just slow down, get some lessons and safety certs under ya and you'll know for sure if the sport is for you and it may save you money if you don't stick with it.

Also handle/fire as many pistols as you can (again courses will help with this), while the glock are very dependable you may not like the trigger the grip, the weight of the gun etc etc etc.

civdef

what are you on about.

If you don't get it, no point in me explaining. Funny we see all these new visitors to the shooting section jumping all over my comments though. Welcome by the way.

Out of interest, why do you chose a Glock 17 as the ideal firearm to start off target shooting with?

what_car

civdef wrote:

If you don't get it, no point in me explaining. Funny we see all these new visitors to the shooting section jumping all over my comments though. Welcome by the way.

Out of interest, why do you chose a Glock 17 as the ideal firearm to start off target shooting with?

have handled it , and liked the look weight and feel of it. i didnt say it was the ideal firearm! dont put words in my mouth.

CJhaughey

what_car :
I don't mean to rain on your parade but IMHO for what it is worth you dont stand a very good chance of getting a license for a Glock 17 as your first firearm.
If you were around this board much before you would see that there are many experienced shooters that have had a great deal of difficulty in getting licensed for pistols.
Chances are are that your application will be filed in the "Trophy Hunter" Tray.
That said you could always be lucky.....

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

air pistol, for example, is not only a very challanging discipline (just ask, one of our fullbore pistol shooters tried his hand at air pistol recently and found it was quite a challange) !

Indeed I did! (Being mainly a fullbore pistol shooter and practical) I found it very challenging. You certainly get a first hand view of your flinch, actually it makes a very good cure for flinch.

I recommend anyone who shoots .22 or fb pistol to give it a whirl, it is difficult. I will be doing it again (may even invest in one).

Thanks to Sparks and Brendan for hospitality:D