EU endorses damning report on CIA

Frederico

Thats the actual headline on the BBC..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6360817.stm


Another reason why our grandchildren will be wondering why angry muslims are blowing up so many white people.

Nick_oliveri

Seen it on the news earlier. Some sinn feín(?) guy was completley denying it. Saying there was no evidence these ex rendition planes were ever in Ireland.

Hobbes

The Irish government can deny simply because they aren't searching any planes coming into Ireland. (plausible deniability)

Question is what happens next?

AbusesToilets

Probably nothing.What's the EU going to do,impose sanctions?Not likely,not even possible i should think as,and i might be wrong, economic power is only vested in the countries for issues like this,not the EU Parliment.

Rock Climber

Hobbes wrote:

The Irish government can deny simply because they aren't searching any planes coming into Ireland. (plausible deniability)

Question is what happens next?

The anti Bush Europeans can accuse simply because the planes belong to the U.S Government (plausible accusability)
Question is why bother,the neo cons reign is numbered.

ballooba

There was a really funny attempt by Eoin Ryan TD MEP FF to get the EU to change the wording of the report. Effectively he wanted a whitewash.

[edit]Here it is... http://eurocrat.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/censorship-at-its-best/ [/edit]

hotrodcw

Im not saying I agree with rendition flights but,

If the Irish government has made an agreement with America on these flights, I fail to see how the EU has any say on the matter. Correct me if im wrong but surely this is a soverign militaristic decision made buy our government to allow CIA flights refuel and fly through our airspace.

InFront

It's against the UN Convention against Torture, so it's very much in the interest of the eu

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html#CAT

Dirk Gently

Out of interest, under a FG/LAB regime would CIA /Military flights be banned / searched. I remember Mick Higgins calling a Dail debate and vote on the subject a while back but it was all rather academic as the Government had the vote won before the debate took place.

If Lab / FG are elected is it a sure thing that military stop overs are a thing of the past or will the former opposition moral high ground be sacrificed for the sake of diplomatic / economic relations with the U.S.

hotrodcw

InFront wrote:

It's against the UN Convention against Torture, so it's very much in the interest of the eu

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html#CAT

But shouldn't the UN be giving out to us instead of the EU? as far as im aware only the UN and the Council of Europe have any competence in this area, not the EU.
I fail to see how the EU has any authority in this area.

SeanW

FG policy IIRC is that the planes should be searched. Which seems OK unless the CIA has something to hide.

In which case they should hide it somewhere else.

BTW Fine Gael, despite being conservative, its EU parlimentarians broke ranks and voted to accept the report.

InFront

hotrodcw wrote:

But shouldn't the UN be giving out to us instead of the EU?

Perhaps they will, i don't actually know. I think anyone who is in breech of that convention deserves a telling off, I don't mind who gives it, do you?

Clown Bag: I think the position was that Labour were looking for an Oireachtas Inquiry into the ex.rendition flights, they recently put across a motion on it and FG were in support. I suppose it would depend on the outcome of that.

If it found that ER was habitually taking place in that particular inquiry, no doubt there would be an outright ban, certainly FG have said so. Obviously it has happened in the past (Abu Omar, etc).

More than even the use of Shannon Simon Coveney has made statements in Europe urging the closure of Guantánamo. Not going to be effective of course, but it seems to demonstrate the FG position pretty well.

Dirk Gently

InFront wrote:

I suppose it would depend on the outcome of that.

Why?

Not being funny or anything but is there some legal / international agreement that would be broke if there was a blanket policy of all non civilian aircraft within the state having mandatory searches carried out on them. Is it not possible for a government to simply decide on searches without having to go to inquests and enquires?

As long as there is ambiguity about whether or not ER is taking place then the state is failing in its duty to uphold its human rights commitments. A strict policy of searching all military stop overs would rule out any ambiguity, unless of course "plausible deniability" is deemed acceptable practice by the now opposition.

I just dont see the problem with coming out straight and saying "if elected we will search all military planes using our facilities". Not counting of course the problem of offending America, but they'll understand if we tell them its all part of the war on terror and protecting freedom.

The problem appears to be more a lack of will by anyone to commit more so than anything else.

infront wrote:

More than even the use of Shannon Simon Coveney has made statements in Europe urging the closure of Guantánamo. Not going to be effective of course, but it seems to demonstrate the FG position pretty well.

Not quiet. as you said it has no real effect and amounts to the same thing Labour done during the non event debate on shannon. It looks to me like "safe" populism as FG will never have to actually act on Guantánamo.

Shannon and military stop overs are not as safe a subject and I want to know what FG/LAB will do with something concrete that they can actually change, as opposed to making the right noises when they know they don't have to act.

hotrodcw

InFront wrote:

Perhaps they will, i don't actually know. I think anyone who is in breech of that convention deserves a telling off, I don't mind who gives it, do you?

To be honest I dont think the EU shouldn't give out to us because its not there position to do so. Its a complete waste of their time and our money. I personly think that country's that breech the UN convention against Torture should be sanctioned by the UN or fined by the Council of Europe.

InFront

clown bag wrote:

The problem appears to be more a lack of will by anyone to commit more so than anything else.

To be honest, I just don't know, but going by what they've said they appear strongly in favour of searching private aircrafts, and seeking extra assurances from the USA:

Link

"Following this report I hope the Irish Government will introduce a system of random inspections of privately chartered planes to reassure the public as to who is on board the planes transiting through Irish airports.

"The Government must also seek further diplomatic assurances in relation to concerns raised as a direct result of the Abu Omar case. We have assurances that detainees are not being transited through Irish airports, but what is now required is an assurance that CIA chartered planes will not use Irish airports as any part of extraordinary rendition circuits, for example as a refuelling stop on the way home.

Link II

"Measures are now required from Government to reassure the public that Ireland is not in any way complicit with the process of extraordinary rendition. Requesting crew lists, introducing random spot checks and asking for new assurances are a reasonable response that I believe the public would support."

I'm sure FG will clarify their position even more over the next few days, but it would seem to be in favour of random checking of US military flights.

InFront

hotrodcw wrote:

To be honest I dont think the EU shouldn't give out to us because its not there position to do so. Its a complete waste of their time and our money.

But this is the EU Parliament - they are part of the process of supervising democracy as is their electoral mandate given to them by European citizens. I don't see why they shouldn't condemn individual governments based on their complicity in extraordinary rendition

AbusesToilets

Won't happen,not in any meaningful way that those in favor of inspections would be happy with.I would not in that camp.There's already a thread on the rendition flights from a month or so ago.Basic point being,it would be a big breach of normal diplomatic relations given that there is no hard evidence of rendered suspects being on any flights through Irish airspace.
If the government decided to do random inspections,it would most likely tip off the US authorities to avoid a diplomatic incident.

Dirk Gently

InFront wrote:

appear

Therein lies my problem. Apperances are all to often decieving.

InFront wrote:

I'm sure FG will clarify their position even more over the next few days

I look forward to seeing it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what a FG/LAB government will actually be in reality as opposed to indications and suggestive speeches. I must admit to being somewhat unimpressed with the standard of opposition so far and look forward to a lot more detailed agenda for government over the coming months. Labours 5 commitments (very lacking in detail) and a few FG proposals (also unconvinced of) need to be beefed up considerably between now and May if the population are to be convinced to vote FG/LAB.

People are crying out for change, offer them change and convince them change is achievale and not just desirable depending on certain factors.

hotrodcw

InFront wrote:

But this is the EU Parliament - they are part of the process of supervising democracy as is their electoral mandate given to them by European citizens. I don't see why they shouldn't condemn individual governments based on their complicity in extraordinary rendition

So you saying that 785 MEP's of whish only a hanfull are elected by "irish citizens" can tell our government what to do in its relations with America with regards to extraordinary rendition?
I didn't know that was in their mandate. Personly I think thats a worrying sign.
Only the UN or the Council of Europe should have any say on the matter because only they have any real authority to do so.

In my opinion Ireland should just completly ignore the EU condemnation on this issiue and I think thats what will happen in the end. I can't imagine any Irish Government jepordising their relations with America for the sake of an EU resolution that has now real teeth behind it. I wouldnt expect them to either.

sceptre

hotrodcw wrote:

If the Irish government has made an agreement with America on these flights, I fail to see how the EU has any say on the matter.

They don't. There was a resolution passed in the Europarl condemning it. it has no force in law. There have been resolutions passed in the past condemning all sorts of things so it's not a new thing.

Akrasia

ballooba wrote:

There was a really funny attempt by Eoin Ryan TD MEP FF to get the EU to change the wording of the report. Effectively he wanted a whitewash.

[edit]Here it is... http://eurocrat.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/censorship-at-its-best/ [/edit]

why did anyone vote for that wanker? i can not think of a single fragment of a reason.

i can at least understand why Dana got elected, but Eoin Ryan is a prototypical example of a lizard man with no redeeming qualities i can think of

Akrasia

hotrodcw wrote:

But shouldn't the UN be giving out to us instead of the EU? as far as im aware only the UN and the Council of Europe have any competence in this area, not the EU.
I fail to see how the EU has any authority in this area.

the council of Europe already issued a report which our government ignored. the UN security council won't say anything because America has a veto

Akrasia

hotrodcw wrote:

Im not saying I agree with rendition flights but,

If the Irish government has made an agreement with America on these flights, I fail to see how the EU has any say on the matter. Correct me if im wrong but surely this is a soverign militaristic decision made buy our government to allow CIA flights refuel and fly through our airspace.

You can't even spell by.

it's not surprising that you have no grasp of ethics or law

(it's a two letter word for feck sake)

Akrasia

sceptre wrote:

They don't. There was a resolution passed in the Europarl condemning it. it has no force in law. There have been resolutions passed in the past condemning all sorts of things so it's not a new thing.

in other words, laws that we choose to ignore never existed in the first place

Judt

Mores be unto the point here, ladies and gentlemen, is not that these rendition flights happened. We knew about those. It's that our governments knew about them. Whatever you want to do about the US, the thing we can do is hold our own political leaders to account. If you're serious about this then they should be put on trial. They knew of the flights, but could claim they didn't know where they were going (as they said of Nazi Germany, the trains ran on time, but where were they going...); but either way, it would seem that European leaders have a charge to face.

This would hurt the US more than any strongly worded rebuke, as the details would come out from the European end, and future EU leaders would see the precedent.

Akrasia
Behave please!

ballooba

clown bag wrote:

I must admit to being somewhat unimpressed with the standard of opposition so far and look forward to a lot more detailed agenda for government over the coming months.

Already we have seen FF/PD steal Fine Gael's clothes on a lot of issues including the BioFuels initiative which they announced a day before FG's private member's bill. Labour today announced a (private member's ?) bill on civil unions. Thankfully FF/PD didn't get wind of that one.

The argument from FG/Lab's perspective is that your average Joe Soap is not yet focussed on the election. There is no point in revealing all now, when nobody is listening. What was interesting when pat unveiled his 5 commitments was that FG sources said that they expected to announce an agreed agenda shortly.


FF have been making a lot of promises over the last few days to cover the shortfall on what they should actually have been delivering over the last ten years. These are actually an interesting indicator of areas where FF/PD have failed. No doubt, this is not the intended effect. One such area is Broadband rollout.

InFront

clown bag wrote:

I'm just trying to get an idea of what a FG/LAB government will actually be in reality as opposed to indications and suggestive speeches.

They're more than "suggestive" in fairness - they're pretty obviously in favour of examining these procedures in far greater detail than FFPDs have done or have intended on doing. I don't see anything ambiguous in the statement "Measures are now required from Government to reassure the public that Ireland is not in any way complicit with the process of extraordinary rendition. Requesting crew lists, introducing random spot checks and asking for new assurances are a reasonable response"

Will military stopovers be ended completely? In a perfect world, yes. In reality, no.
The most that people can realistically hope to get - even under Fine Gael/ Labour leadership in my opinion - is a cleaning-up process with flight inspections and passenger lists to ensure that ER does not take place.

That's a lot more than you'll get from the FF-PDs, they are complicit in what has been happening by their negligence, and as shown by the Eoin Ryan link, are well aware of their negligence too.

Dirk Gently

InFront wrote:

They're more than "suggestive" in fairness - they're pretty obviously in favour of examining these procedures in far greater detail

Which means what? Apart from lack of political will, what reason is there not to just come straight out and say " If elected, we will search all military planes using our facilities".

InFront wrote:

The most that people can realistically hope to get

Are you saying........

Vote FG/LAB and planes will be definetly be searched,

or are you saying.......

Vote FG /Lab and we will make a bit more noise about the flights but you'll just have to wait and see if we actually do search them. Go on, take a chance, you might get lucky, or then again things might just stay the same.

ballooba wrote:

The argument from FG/Lab's perspective is that your average Joe Soap is not yet focussed on the election

Largely because there is not a whole lot to focus on to be honest. How long are you going to wait until you deem joe soap focussed enough to be told what and how things will be done differently under FG / LAB. Part of the function of any political party is to continuously promote themselves, their ideas and attract new members and supporters. Maybe if as much effort was put into high lighting the oppositions good points as opposed to highlighting the governments bad points more people would be inclined to vote LAB / FG.

Naturally election time sees these activities increase but in fairness, I feel average Joe soap is ready now, has been ready for a long time, and is listening attentively but the message is not getting through. People want change, they are fed up and burned out trying to cope with mortgages, hospitals, child care, stealth taxes, public transport commuting long distances, schools and so on, but they are simply not convinced that LAB / FG would make the slightest bit of difference. That is a failure on the part of LAB / FG to promote themselves and convince the public with detailed plans for government.

If the trend continues up to election time FF will get re-elected and increase their seats as people choose to stick with experience rather than the same deal (or an unconvincing, slightly different deal) with inexperienced leaders.

sceptre

Akrasia wrote:

in other words, laws that we choose to ignore never existed in the first place

Well, you see, outside this thread, no-one's claimed that these purport to be laws in the first place.

ballooba

clown bag wrote:

Largely because there is not a whole lot to focus on to be honest. How long are you going to wait until you deem joe soap focussed enough to be told what and how things will be done differently under FG / LAB. Part of the function of any political party is to continuously promote themselves, their ideas and attract new members and supporters.

You seem to be asking me as if I am FG. I don't know any more than any other member of the public.

As regards timing. We don't even have a date for the election yet. No one likes a premature climax.