EU endorses damning report on CIA

Dirk Gently

ballooba wrote:

You seem to be asking me as if I am FG. I don't know any more than any other member of the public..

Sorry, From your posts across the forum as a whole I thought you were a FG member and thats why I posed my questions in the way I did. I was basically asking who I thought were FG members (yourself and infront)questions about a FG / LAB government.

Can I ask what has you convinced that FG are a better option because I can't see anything worthy of getting them elected apart from the whole "get the government out, FG / LAB can't possibly be as bad as them" argument. I really am hoping there will be something of substance over the coming months to think about, as opposed to proposals which are very general and lacking in any real detail, which means making an informed decision on them impossible.

ballooba

clown bag wrote:

Sorry, From your posts across the forum as a whole I thought you were a FG member and thats why I posed my questions in the way I did. I was basically asking who I thought were FG members (yourself and infront)questions about a FG / LAB government.

I am a FG member. That doesn't mean I am privy to their election strategy.

clown bag wrote:

Can I ask what has you convinced that FG are a better option because I can't see anything worthy of getting them elected apart from the whole "get the government out, FG / LAB can't possibly be as bad as them" argument. I really am hoping there will be something of substance over the coming months to think about, as opposed to proposals which are very general and lacking in any real detail, which means making an informed decision on them impossible.

Fine Gael are promising the same things Fianna Fail have been promising for the last 10 years. Fianna Fail have not delivered them, it's time for Fine Gael to deliver on those promises.

Fine Gael also offer creative thinking in a lot of areas including; Justice (including Young Offender's), Defence (expanded role for Defence Forces), Waste of Taxpayer's Money (something FF/PD would of course deny), Agriculture (Green Ireland & others by Brody Sweeney) and that's only (some of) the Fine Gael policies.

I was 13 when the current government came into office. The faith of my generation in politics has been seriously eroded. They've never had a good example to believe in. They have come to expect low standards from their politicians. Some people actually think it's funny and even something to admire the way our Taoiseach shrugs off scandal.

Bertie is good at the PR game but he is not a statesman. The guy can't even string an intelligible sentence together. He claims a false accounting qualification as well as degrees from two universities who have no record of him. Most would agree he's fairly "dodgy" at best. It's a miracle he got away with BertieGate, he's survived the Mahon Tribunal (so far!) even though he signed blank cheques, and him a so-called "accountant".

By contrast, Enda Kenny is an intelligent individual with a bit of integrity who has brought about a complete revival of the Fine Gael party. He's an incredibly personable and likeable individual without the Dub wide-boy image of Bertie. About the biggest criticism people can mount of him is to slag off his accent and his name.

Dirk Gently

I've had a look at some of the creative thinking you speak of on the FG website. Any idea when the thinking process will be finished and the end product will be announced?

I hear what you’re saying about Bertie. Too many people do see him as loveable rouge but just cos Enda is a nice guy doesn't mean he will do the job any better. It just means he will be...well,.........a nice guy.

Basically what you’re saying is FG will do the same as what FF is doing but with less corruption? What makes you think FG will succeed where FF have failed. Will the creative thinking on young offenders and the role of the Defence forces as outlined on the Party site materialise into something tangible in time for the election or is it another case of...."we are looking into making some changes, hopefully if you vote for us there’s a chance we might do something about it" In other words, "trust us" it will be all right.

Akrasia

sceptre wrote:

Well, you see, outside this thread, no-one's claimed that these purport to be laws in the first place.

We are parties to the U.N. conventions against torture. International treaties once ratified become part of Irish domestic law and there is a constitutional obligation for the Gardai to uphold and for the Politicians to abide by these laws

In Ireland, this is covered under the CRIMINAL JUSTICE (UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION
AGAINST TORTURE) ACT, 2000
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2000/a1100.pdf

2.—(1) A public official, whatever his or her nationality, who carries
out an act of torture on a person, whether within or outside the
State, shall be guilty of the offence of torture.
(2) A person, whatever his or her nationality, other than a public
official, who carries out an act of torture on another person, whether
within or outside the State, at the instigation of, or with the consent
or acquiesence of, a public official shall be guilty of the offence of
torture.
(3) A person guilty of the offence of torture shall be liable on
conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life.

3.—A person, whatever his or her nationality, whether within or
outside the State, who—
(a) attempts to commit or conspires to commit the offence of
torture, or
(b) does an act with the intent to obstruct or impede the arrest
or prosecution of another person, including a person who
is a public official, in relation to the offence of torture,
shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on
indictment to imprisonment for life.

Anyone who has facilitated extraordinary rendition by the U.S. including McDowell and Eoin Ryan are guilty of torture under Irish Law and should be facing trial with possible imprisonment for life.

Zambia

Nobody can say for certainity wether a Torture victim has stopped off in Shannon.

However it has been clearly in evidence that Prisoners are being held without trial in Guatanmo Bay. Surely the EU/UN and Irish Goverments time and effort would be better spent going after that issue with the US rather than how the prisoners actually get there.

Besides if they didnt stop here they would stop in the UK. Its like six hamsters debating on wether our not to kick an Elephant in the Shin.
Best we can hope for is it shakes it's leg and walks around.
Worst case scenario...it crushs us.
Most likly event will be it doesnt even notice

lostexpectation

again FG have a point there innumerable reason for the gardai seach private jets coming into ireland whether it be drugs or organised crime or fraud.

Akrasia

Zambia232 wrote:

Nobody can say for certainity wether a Torture victim has stopped off in Shannon.

However it has been clearly in evidence that Prisoners are being held without trial in Guatanmo Bay. Surely the EU/UN and Irish Goverments time and effort would be better spent going after that issue with the US rather than how the prisoners actually get there.

Besides if they didnt stop here they would stop in the UK. Its like six hamsters debating on wether our not to kick an Elephant in the Shin.
Best we can hope for is it shakes it's leg and walks around.
Worst case scenario...it crushs us.
Most likly event will be it doesnt even notice

we should definitely be putting more pressure on the U.S. government over their gulag in Cuba, but we would have absolutely no moral authority if the U.S. can then say "but sure didn't you help us to transport our prisoners to be tortured in egypt' or 'didn't your country help us to get them to Cuba in the first place'

We should be responsible for own behaviour first and then criticise others when it is justified.

The fact is, more than a thousand suspected rendition flights used european Airports and Airspace and hundreds of those flights went through Ireland. These flights were covered up and facilitated directly by our politicians and security forces. That makes them legally responsible for the torture carried out.

The only reason we have no evidence of who was on these flights is because the Gardai refused to inspect these planes, and more than that, they personally guarded these planes while they were on irish soil. complicity doesn't come much more clear cut than that.

Zambia

If the goverment knows they are doing it Ireland should ask them to stop landing all US Military Aircraft and us somewhere else that is the morally right thing to do but I dont think we are prepared to face the backlash to Irelands relations if they do.

ballooba

clown bag wrote:

I hear what you’re saying about Bertie. Too many people do see him as loveable rouge but just cos Enda is a nice guy doesn't mean he will do the job any better. It just means he will be...well,.........a nice guy.

I'm not just saying Enda is a nice guy. I'm saying he has integrity. I'm also saying he has shown the ability to revitalise the FG party from a very low ebb. FFers will say he has no charisma, but he couldn't have pulled off the turnaround he did without it.

clown bag wrote:

Basically what you’re saying is FG will do the same as what FF is doing but with less corruption?

If FF promise you the Sun, Moon and the Stars then what else can FG promise. Nobody seems to notice that FF can not deliver on their promises. Micheal McDowell says now that he will claim the credit for any subsequent pension rises now whether he is in government or not. It's like filing for a patent on something you have no idea how to build. Like DaVinci's helicopter plans or something.

clown bag wrote:

What makes you think FG will succeed where FF have failed. Will the creative thinking on young offenders and the role of the Defence forces as outlined on the Party site materialise into something tangible in time for the election or is it another case of...."we are looking into making some changes, hopefully if you vote for us there’s a chance we might do something about it" In other words, "trust us" it will be all right.

I don't know what you're looking for from Fine Gael. They do not have the resources or the PR spend of the NDP. They do not have the resources of the DOF to publish an alternative budget. They can publish policies and they can attempt to get Private Member's Bills through, but they're limited in what they can do until they actually have our money.

Akrasia

Zambia232 wrote:

If the goverment knows they are doing it Ireland should ask them to stop landing all US Military Aircraft and us somewhere else that is the morally right thing to do but I dont think we are prepared to face the backlash to Irelands relations if they do.

well Italy Germany and Spain have arrest warrants out for cia operatives, and Germany have an arrest warrant for Donald Rumsfeld. The U.S. haven't invaded yet and U.S. investment hasn't dried up...

Dirk Gently

ballooba wrote:

I don't know what you're looking for from Fine Gael. They do not have the resources or the PR spend of the NDP. They do not have the resources of the DOF to publish an alternative budget. They can publish policies and they can attempt to get Private Member's Bills through, but they're limited in what they can do until they actually have our money.

That shouldn't stop them from saying, "when in power this is what we are going to do....(a) .....(b).....(c).

So far from this thread the issues I asked about, some of which FG are promoting and the rendition flights, which FG are slating the government on, I have received no straight answer on.

All I have is...... "maybe we might search the planes but I can't say either way", and "we are looking into alternatives for young offenders and the defence forces but we don't know what we are going to do yet".

To be fair if FG can't commit to searching planes they should not be allowed to beat up the current government about it until they are sure they actually are going to make a positive change should they get elected.

Likewise all this talk about young offenders and a new role for the defence forces means nothing to me because FG have not said what they are actually going to do when in government.

As far as I can see, FG have not committed to searching planes, young offenders or the new role of defence forces and really should stop talking about the issues until they come out and clearly state that they definitely will make the changes should they get elected. At the moment I think "we are looking into making changes" amounts to trying to deceive the public with a lot of spin and no real firm plans. I've no doubt FG are "looking into" these areas but really it's time to put up or shut up as "looking into" amounts to good intentions without the accountability should nothing happen when they're in office.

Basically its a slick use of language impling something will happen when the truth is it may or may not happen.

If FG get into government will................

(A) military planes get searched using shannon

(b) The defence forces definetly be involved with planning civillian projects

(c) are boot camps for young offenders definetly going to be a reality of a new FG government.

Just answer yes or no to the questions above and I'll be happy. I'd be even happier with a detailed report on how each of them would be implemented and what they consist of but a YES or NO would be progress at this stage.

If you can't answer yes or no to any of the questions then the issues should be dropped by FG until such a point where they can confirm they will definetly go ahead if they are in power.

ballooba

clown bag wrote:

If FG get into government will................

There's another thread on this forum about FG/Labour/Green policy. I don't want to completely hi-jack this one.

Back on topic though. I would like an answer on the rendition flights from Fine Gael. I will try and dig up the email adress for the FG press office.

Zambia

Akrasia wrote:

well Italy Germany and Spain have arrest warrants out for cia operatives, and Germany have an arrest warrant for Donald Rumsfeld. The U.S. haven't invaded yet and U.S. investment hasn't dried up...

I almost didnt believe you ...

from http://atlanticreview.org/archives/484-Prosecution-of-Secretary-Rumsfeld-in-Germany-UPDATE.html

German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S. officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations, and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the complaint. (...)
"The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be clearer," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001

ballooba

Well, if you like that, check this shít out:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0216/rendition.html

Nick_oliveri

Washington acknowledges secret transfers of terrorism suspects to third countries but denies using or sanctioning torture, and is not expected to hand over its agents for trial.

The Americans dont deny it, but when it comes to our "neutrality" in matters such as this. Our boys deny it straight out. Shannon is perfect for a US fly through. Such a pile of shiite.

Akrasia

Nick_oliveri wrote:

The Americans dont deny it, but when it comes to our "neutrality" in matters such as this. Our boys deny it straight out. Shannon is perfect for a US fly through. Such a pile of shiite.

no no no.. Bertie said he was given private assurances that the secret flights through shannon weren't the same secret flights that transported victims to secret prisons to be tortured secretly...

why would we have any reason not to believe him?

Nick_oliveri

Akrasia wrote:

no no no.. Bertie said he was given private assurances

Private assurances

Judt

Ye are missing the point, though... whatever about arresting a couple of CIA agents (boo, hiss) in Italy, what about our own political leaders? If they knew about the flights, shouldn't they be up on charges? (At least the CIA agents could say they were only following orders.......)

Akrasia

Judt wrote:

Ye are missing the point, though... whatever about arresting a couple of CIA agents (boo, hiss) in Italy, what about our own political leaders? If they knew about the flights, shouldn't they be up on charges? (At least the CIA agents could say they were only following orders.......)

Absolutely Michael McDowell, Bertie Ahern and the Senior Garda officials at Shannon and in the phoenix park should all be investigated for complicity in torture.


Of course, that will never ever happen, so it is up to the Irish people to take direct action to stop Shannon Civilian airport from being used to commit crimes against humanity.

When every institution of the state is corrupt and complicit, direct action is the last resort.

ballooba

Well, an Oireachteas committee as is being requested at the moment is of no benefit. It will not stop the flights going through Shannon. Bertie's personal assurance are far from enough. We need searches or at least lists.