Tanaiste claims we have 'gist' of tribunal that can't go on forever

Heinrich

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=39&si=1776036&issue_id=15250

Irish Independent 15 Feb 2007

Uproar over McDowell call to scrap €1bn probe

Tanaiste claims we have 'gist' of tribunal that can't go on forever

THE Government was embroiled in a major row last night after Tanaiste Michael McDowell suggested the Mahon Tribunal be wound down.

In an extraordinary statement, the controversial Justice Minister said the tribunal costs were heading towards the €1bn mark and it could not "go on forever".

He outraged opposition TDs by saying the public had 'the gist' of the issues raised in the tribunal and that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

The Government was back-pedalling furiously last night with the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern forced to deny the Coalition was moving to close it down.

But the damage caused by Mr McDowell's remarks is certain to raise questions about the future of the tribunal.

And an angry Opposition claimed Mr McDowell was "abusing his power".

They also accused him of trying to "protect the Taoiseach from embarrassment" at the Mahon inquiry.

Adding to the Government's embarrassment, Environment Minister Dick Roche, who has responsibility for the tribunal, publicly agreed with Mr McDowell's remarks.

Mr Ahern, providing figures largely backing up Mr McDowell's €1bn estimate, said there was "no question" of either the Mahon or Moriarty tribunals being wound up.

"I am certainly not going to interfere," he said.

Igniting the row, Mr McDowell said the Mahon situation could not go on "forever".

He said €1bn was a lot of money to spend on investigating corruption in local government. The question had to be asked whether to continue "relentlessly to the bitter end pouring money into an inquiry which is really just confirming a picture the gist of which we already have".

A Government spokeswoman said Mr Roche was in discussion with the Mahon Tribunal and, separately, Attorney General Rory Brady was having talks with the Moriarty Tribunal on fees and timeframe.

But she said that while these "serious issues" needed to be addressed, there was "no question of either tribunal being closed down".

Meanwhile, in an interview recorded for Eamon Keane's lunchtime programme on Newstalk today, the Taoiseach said all he wanted to do was clear his name.

"I'm not going to call for the end of something I was subject to.

"I was up in front of it because of the position I held. A number of years ago we decided in all tribunals that there was a date they had to be finished by and if it wasn't reached then, the fees would come in at a lower level .

"The tribunal have an argument that they have been frustrated, but there are 12,000 discovery orders totaling €400m, third party costs of hundreds of millions - I have no idea, so I am not going to speculate - and legal fees outstanding to hundreds of solicitors of €100m," he said.

When pressed if the Mahon tribunal should be allowed to complete its final report, the Taoiseach says he would be the last person in the world that would want to see the tribunals frustrated. I don't think we are going to see them winding up.

"I'm certainly not going to interfere."

Opposition parties accused Mr McDowell of "threatening" the tribunal on the day the PDs did not contribute to the Dail debate on the Moriarty Tribunal report about Charles Haughey's finances.

Green Party leader Trevor Sargent claimed the Tanaiste was trying to shut down the Mahon Tribunal "to protect the Taoiseach who may be embarrassed during the Quarryvale module".

Fine Gael's Environment spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said it was "astonishing" that on the day the Dail debated the Moriarty report there was not a single member of the PDs present in the Chamber for the debate.

Labour's Environment spokesman Eamon Gilmore said the fees for the tribunals were negotiated and approved by the Fianna Fail/PD government, many of them when Mr McDowell was Attorney General.

He accused the government of failing to deliver on promises that it would control the level of lawyers' fees.

Trevor Sargent said the Mahon Tribunal had to complete the task it was given.

Gene McKenna

You just have to love this! The cost is too high or the proposed date has expired so that's all right. Is this Government going to get a further mandate?

Corruption is rife but how to "prove" it when a simple denial from Bertie will close the matter!

Macy

McDowell doing Berties bidding. PD's only chance of power is FF. FF only chance of power is to keep Bertie's skeletons firmly locked in the closet.

"The tribunal have an argument that they have been frustrated"

By people taking court cases so that the Tribunal doesn't get access to all their financial records?

"I'm certainly not going to interfere."

Except for taking legal action to stop the Tribunal getting access to your financial records relating to the time period of Quarryvale.

Bertie obviously learned from his mentor's (Haughey, Burke, Lawlor) when it comes to attempting to frustrate the work of the Tribunal by taking legal action to block access to his financial records. What other motivation could there be for that unless he was also following their lead when it came to recieving payments?

Glenbhoy

"The tribunal have an argument that they have been frustrated, but there are 12,000 discovery orders totaling €400m, third party costs of hundreds of millions - I have no idea, so I am not going to speculate - and legal fees outstanding to hundreds of solicitors of €100m," he said.

Let's just pretend for a minute that the figures above are correct, okay, now presuming they are, that would mean that all that money has already been spent by the tribunal, hence I can't understand the man's argument that this money could now be spent on 'hospitals, prisons and pensions', it's unbelievable, it's like saying that if we decide not to install the electronic voting machines we'll have another 60M to spend on education, really the guy needs a crash course in management accounting, costs already expended are sunk costs, over, forgotten, can't be recovered.....
Also what he doesn't say is that whilst yes, there may be millions outstanding in 3rd party legal fees, those are payable by any 3rd parties who are adjudged by the tribunal to have been uncooperative, since this includes virtually everyone who has been investigated, then the 3rd parties will have to pay these costs and not the state, see Ms Lawlor's attempts to stop the tribunal getting costs from her at the moment, see the Bailey's being hit for 10M in costs last year....
Another thing that surprisingly Mr McDowell has neglected to mention is that at this stage (and that's before the main module Quarryvale), the revenue reckon that they've brought in approx 1bn from tribunal related enquiries, but then that doesn't make good reading does it, wouldn't help justify closing it down like!!
And a final point, given that all this money is being spent on fat cat lawyers etc, surely for every €1 paid out in legal fees we can reclaim approx 51c in taxes, being VAT of 21% and a probable overall income tax rate (including PRSI) of 40%, let's face it, tribunals may be one of the reasons as to why our tax take goes up year after year:D

Heinrich

Excellent post! You have summed it up brilliantly.

Villain

Well said Glennbhoy, McDowell was in government when these tribunals were setup, if they have wasted money it has been with his support.

Rebeller

Ah yes, the only (albeit relatively ineffective) mechanism we have in our so called democracy for getting a glimpse behind the cloak of corruption is threatened with closure.

It's a pity Macdowell wasn't so concerned with excessive wastage of public (our) money when his party supported:

- The e-voting fiasco
- PPARS
- Frequent overspends on major infrastructural projects

etc etc etc etc

The arrogance of this administration knows no bounds.

Seems to me that Herr Macdowell and B-b-b-bertie are simply playing out a well-choreographed script. A good cop, bad cop role play comes to mind.

I always get nervous when I hear Bertie make a categorical, clear statement about anything.

They have to go!

The_Minister

Bertie has said that he wants the Tribunal to continue, I really doubt that the Tribunal will be wound up before Bertie is investigated it would look too bad. Once Bertie has been dealt with though.....


Oh, and I think when McDowell was talking about the money being spent on hospitals etc, he probably ment all the money that will have to be paid in the future (there is currently no end in sight).

Macy

The_Minister wrote:

Bertie has said that he wants the Tribunal to continue, I really doubt that the Tribunal will be wound up before Bertie is investigated it would look too bad. Once Bertie has been dealt with though.....

While at the same time he is trying to deny access to his financial records in court!

Heinrich

Macy wrote:

While at the same time he is trying to deny access to his financial records in court!

The stink of red herrings is getting to me!

There is so much contradictory stuff going round that we seem to be losing the plot.

Was Bertie being unethical over the signings of books of blank checks?

Was he using his position, regardless of potential payoffs to get money from the plasterer era of the Manchester one?

How was he paid his salary if he had no bank account?

Was Charlie involved with Butterley?

What was Ray Burke up to?

Did he have Bertie's blessing?

etc....

ballooba

The_Minister wrote:

Bertie has said that he wants the Tribunal to continue, I really doubt that the Tribunal will be wound up before Bertie is investigated it would look too bad. Once Bertie has been dealt with though.....

Of course Bertie would say that when he has his mpuppets MickyMackyDee and TrickyDickyRoche to play the other side of his whole good cop/bad cop act.

Villain

Oh the tribunal Judges have come out fighting, this is going to run a bit longer.

gandalf

Jaysus Herr Flick is really trying to derail this tribunial.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0215/mahon.html

There must be some pretty juicey stuff coming up in the Quarryvale section. According to RTE News Judge Mahon has stated that the tribunial could end up costing €300 million when all the costs are recouped from those that haven't co-operated with the Tribunial. Thats an awful lot less that the figure McDowell sensationally blurted out yesterday. As usual with McDowell its all talk and no substance.

Villain

Mc Dowell is standing by his 1 Billion figure tonight, so someones got it wrong, either Judge Mahon who is in charge of the tribunal or good auld Minister for Justice. Mahon also stated in his letter that he had informed Dick Roche that the tribunal would finish next year. Something weird is going on here why in gods name would McDowell want to bring all this up so close to an election. One report I heard this evening stated that McDowell actually was the one who set the fees for Tribunal legal staff when he was attorney general??

Something not right here, can't figure it out though?

gandalf

Well between this and the fact they are creating a showdown with lawyers by capping the fees that the Government agreed in the past suggests they are trying to derail the tribunials (or delay them until after the elections). Now this may be the old x-files fan in me but there must be something that can seriously damage this current juntas grip on power in the pipeline.

ballooba

irish1 wrote:

Something not right here, can't figure it out though?

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/10/20/story187126528.asp

Also, How's Owen O'Callaghan's Supreme Court challenge going?

LostinBlanch

Interesting days ahead methinks.

E92

The only reason why they're making a big fuss about this is because its an election year. I can't believe nobodys mentioned that till now. Theres the small matter that they now they will have to face the people after almost 10 years of power. They have to be seen to be doing something proactive for the country.

ballooba

E92 wrote:

The only reason why they're making a big fuss about this is because its an election year. I can't believe nobodys mentioned that till now. Theres the small matter that they now they will have to face the people after almost 10 years of power. They have to be seen to be doing something proactive for the country.

Can you explain to me the logic that led you to that conclusion?

Is there not something else they could have tried, other than attempting to call a halt to a tribunal which is expected to be very embarassing for senior members of their party?

Villain

E92 wrote:

The only reason why they're making a big fuss about this is because its an election year. I can't believe nobodys mentioned that till now. Theres the small matter that they now they will have to face the people after almost 10 years of power. They have to be seen to be doing something proactive for the country.

I think most of us are well aware its an election year but why bring these figures when surely they had to know they were going to corrected, its too much of PR gamble just to make the cost an issue before the election, any PR advisor would know, the stakes are too high, I have a feeling their something else behind it but don't know what

I don't think this government or McDowell would be so stupid to cancel the tribunal.
That would create more mud in an election year.

This was posturing so as to get a reduction in the fee's paid to the lawyers and as usual the media have grabbed onto it and consequently the posturing has somewhat back fired as the fear which the government intended using to halt the lawyers gravy train(€800 a day each) has been stopped by the media and the opposition going crazy.
They were a little bit stupid though not to realise that their opponents who on a fast day are a tad sluggish on vitality wouldn't pick this up and run with it, for it saves them having to promote their lack of policies/alternatives, and as bad, their lack of charisma.

That would be what I see as having happened anyhow.

Note this is not a pro government post,it's just a reality check.

gandalf

Heres another reality check Tristrame, the Government are the ones that agreed the daily rate they are now protesting about. McDowell signed off on it as AG.

Oh I'm well aware of that but I'm sure they didn't sign off on the length of the tribunals or the depth of the inquiries both of which have made that agreed price much more costly than planned.

They can't do much about the inquiry bar posture that they might close it.
They won't do that as it would be suicidal.
They may have been posturing privately to the tribunal lawyers,I'd say they were and their bluff was called-hence the public posturing.
But I would seriously be disappointed if they didn't attempt to negotiate a better deal given the amount of business this is now throwing the way of the lawyers and the bleed on the exchequer.
Basically this is a lose lose lose for the government,they can't win on any account,they may aswell lie there and take it as the posturing is a waste of time.
I seriously doubt that there is any real attempt to close the tribunal.
No politician of any hue would be so short on savy as not to see the damage such a decision would do to their image especially in an election year.

Thats what appears to be going on-if one leaves aside various political takes on it.

gandalf

Ah but why blatently lie like McDowell has, Judge Alan Mahon sent Dick Roche a letter stating the tribunial will continue on until next year (so that kicks indefinately to the sideline) and gave Roche a breakdown on all the costs involved which according to Mahon is no where near the amount that McDowell is rabitting on about.

I'll wait and see what McDowells reaction is to that.
He may not have seen the letter Roche got or Roche might not have shown it to him-we don't know so theres nothing there to suggest a lie.
My point was that this was from what I can see the forced outing of private posturing ie McDowells bluff being called.
I don't think any politician worth their salt would call off a tribunal making it look like a cover up.
McDowell may be many things under the sun in various peoples eyes with varying opinions of him but he is not stupid.

As for the tribunal going on indefinitely-I doubt Mahon would know the length of the investigation from here on in -he won't have seen what is coming next or the extent of the murk and mire that may protract it.
Theres no way that I can see, that a politician would attempt to close down this, but they may have a fair idea that it is likely to go off on all sorts of legitimate tangents.
It has done so before and is likely to do so again.

I think I'm seeing a different kind of damage to the rest of you here,I think.
Most of you are thinking AHA McDowell wants to close this and prevent the murky being exposed.
I don't think that would tie in well with his party, it would be a nail in the coffin of the watch dog image that they have always wanted to portray for sure.
I'm seeing a posture by McDowell backfireing yet again on him.

Glenbhoy

Tristrame wrote:

This was posturing so as to get a reduction in the fee's paid to the lawyers and as usual the media have grabbed onto it and consequently the posturing has somewhat back fired as the fear which the government intended using to halt the lawyers gravy train(€800 a day each) has been stopped by the media and the opposition going crazy.

Do you really believe that McDowell, Roche, Bertie give a flying fcuk about lawyers fees? I mean, McDowell negotiated the fees in the first place, Bertie has been keen enough to use plenty of top lawyers (I wonder actually, who will pick up the tab for his recent appearance before the family law court). Aside from that, since Judge Mahon apparently informed them 2 weeks ago that the tribunal would end in 1 yrs time, why concern themselves with a saving of for example €3M using the following made up figures (10 lawyers at €2000 per day x 250 days = 5m, new cost would be 10 lawyers at €800 per day x 250 days = 2m). So do you really think the terrible trio would be that concerned over €3m that they would go to all this trouble??
No, they're concerned about their political futures imo.

Glenbhoy

Glenbhoy wrote:

Do you really believe that McDowell, Roche, Bertie give a flying fcuk about lawyers fees?

if it means less money for their consituency or give away budgets yes I do think they give a flying fcuk.
€300m or €400 million would be better spent in their eyes on a give away budget or in their constituencies.

I mean, McDowell negotiated the fees in the first place, Bertie has been keen enough to use plenty of top lawyers (I wonder actually, who will pick up the tab for his recent appearance before the family law court).

I'm sure he negotiated a price with them.

Aside from that, since Judge Mahon apparently informed them 2 weeks ago that the tribunal would end in 1 yrs time, why concern themselves with a saving

"apparently" being the key here.
Perhaps there was no cabinet meeting in the interim? Perhaps 2 weeks ago means the letter is in a pile un opened on the desk of Roche? Perhaps its opened and marked for attention but not given it yet?
Perhaps 2 weeks ago it was sent and 4 days ago it was opened,leaving very little time for Roche to cancel all meetings and run to McDowell with the letter?
Perhaps McDowell didn't tell Roche that he was going to go public with his private thoughts?

So many probablilities and one certainty.
The certainty is that those who don't like McDowell are always quick to accuse first and expect the evidence to stack up in favour of the accusation later.
It might and it might not.

I'm not buying into an agenda to knock McDowell in this case untill I see the fuller picture and I'll take those that don't like him rushing to do so with a pinch of salt untill I have the full information.

Theres just as much plausability so far to a more benign description of this and I've posited some that struck me straight away.

Of course either could be right or there could be something entirely different out there to be said yet on the matter.

of for example €3M using the following made up figures (10 lawyers at €2000 per day x 250 days = 5m, new cost would be 10 lawyers at €800 per day x 250 days = 2m). So do you really think the terrible trio would be that concerned over €3m that they would go to all this trouble??
No, they're concerned about their political futures imo.

That ignores (1) that this tribunal could go on ad infinitum if it takes an as yet unknown tangent.
It has the form to do so already with the way it has taken so long tangential to its initial purpose to get to todays stage. and (2) The fact that you are pre supposing that McDowell an emminent former Barrister/SC is stupid.

I remain unconvinced of either.

Akrasia

Anyone remember Mcdowells statement before the budget that Ireland didn't really need the 2.6 billion that it would cost to remove stamp duty because we were so rich?

That's the point we want to get across. The Government doesn't need this massive flow of stamp duty from house purchases
http://www.evening-herald.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1690446&issue_id=14657

So we didn't need 2.6 billion a few months ago, but now every penny counts?

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Anyone remember Mcdowells statement before the budget that Ireland didn't really need the 2.6 billion that it would cost to remove stamp duty because we were so rich?


So we didn't need 2.6 billion a few months ago, but now every penny counts?

Theres a difference between not needing money and píssing whats already collected away for lack of negotiation.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Theres a difference between not needing money and píssing whats already collected away for lack of negotiation.

my point was that mcdowell's motivation isn't money. There is something else he's worried about.

mike65

McDowell expresses come concern (for whatever reason) about a suspected Runaway Train of a tribunal and thats interpreted by those keen to make political hay as Her Flick cancels Christmas!

He can't stop a tribunal - only a vote in the Dail can, that is'nt even been suggested. If it was what the government wanted they'd not have the time to achive the aims nor whould it be in thier electoral interests to stop it. Vox pops (for what they're worth) suggests he is reflecting a popular view but that would soon turn against him if the Tribunals were halted.

As for the numbers - a 1,000,000,000 is so rounded and big as to be a guess but then so's Mahons 300,000,000. What McDowell has done is get Mahon to
think of a number and state it publically so he better be right. (no-one expects a politicain to be right so McDowells Billion does'nt matter!).

Lots of fuss about very little here.

Mike.

MontgomeryClift

Remember Frank Connolly and the Centre for Public Inquiry? That fuss was to have the CPI shut down because it was about to investigate McDowell's purchase of the Thornton Hall site for at least six times what it was worth. It worked so successfully then why not try something similar with the tribunal?