Driving Test Outrage

Citizen_Erased

First of all sorry if you are all sick of people moaning about their tests but I mean no offence.

Anyway the story is that my neighbour did his test there on tuesday and he unfortunately he didnt pass . This result came as a shock to all his instructors , especially the one who had taken him for a lesson just before the test. But nso what your saying , happens all the time , but heres the twist - the reason he failed was 4 seperate marks for "exagerated head movements" with the mirrors. What a joke! You are supposed to make it obvious when you look at the mirrors and he show'd me exactly what he was doing and there was nothing "exagerated about it" .

But that is not the worst problem . The biggest problem is the instructure , one Mrs . X lets say. She is a sexest stereotyper and is not fit for her job as she is in now way impartial towards young male drivers . I know that they have a bad reputation , especially here in Donegal , but that is not her business she is there to mark the persons driving ability in their test . But she is incapable of doing that. The fact that she failed my friend for such a rediculous thing is a perfect example (hes 18 btw) is just perfect example and the person (also male) that was with her before my friend also failed . And it does go much beyond this , I know close to ten people without a shadow of exageration , to use her terms , have been failed by here
and I am yet to meet a single boy she has passed . And her is where the sexism is obvious , the exact opposite is true for girls , I am yet to meet one she hasnt passed. Even these girls described their test going awfully and some described some serious mistakes that they all made in their tests but still passed with her , the kind of people who instructors predicted a high percentage of fail.

It is a complete outrage that I do not want to be let go. My question is simple and sorry i took so long to get to it , but what are the proper channel for launching a formal complaint about this matter. I am prepared to gather any information and testimonials on the matter because this has gone beyond what is acceptable.

Thanks for your time

C_E

btw ( me friend doesn't = me , my test is next month)

Rebeller

Citizen_Erased wrote:

what are the proper channel for launching a formal complaint about this matter. I am prepared to gather any information and testimonials on the matter because this has gone beyond what is acceptable.

If what you're saying is correct it would seem to be a clear case of gender discrimination contrary to the Equal Status Act 2000. The 2000 Act prohibits discrimination on grounds of Gender, Marital Status, Family Status, Age, Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Membership of the Traveller community.

Unfortunately, as you yourself have not directly experienced such discrimination you would be unable to make a complaint to the Equality Authority

You should instead encourage your friend to make a complaint bearing in mind that any investigation could take many months to complete and there is no guarantee of a successful outcome.

Alternatively you could wait to sit your own test and then make a formal complaint yourself depending on your own personal experience with "Instructor X".

I have heard of this before in relation to driving instructors of both genders. Not all 18 year old males are potential "boy racers" (I hate the term). All driving test applicants should be treated equally and judged solely on their driving on the day of the test.

Good luck!

OfflerCrocGod

Have you though of maybe using radio shows to publicize this? Ask if other people have experienced the same sort of treatment because if this behavior is true this needs a lot of publicity as it might be one of the causes for the massive delays in getting tests.

C.D.

Your friend should have made a formal complaint after sitting his test. There is a requirement for ALL driving test centres to have anonymous feedback forms available for each and every applicant. You could also have asked to speak to the Supervisor.

Because your friend didn't do this, your options are:

Contact them as follows:

"If you have a comment, suggestion or complaint to make you can:

*

Ring Driver Testing Section, LoCall 1890 40 60 40, ask to be put through to the unit responsible for organising your test and speak to a member of staff. This will allow you to make your views known and deal with any issue in an informal way.
*

If you wish to make a formal complaint, set out the details of your complaint in writing and send it to:

The Customer Services Officer,
Driver Testing Section,
Road Safety Authority,
Government Offices,
Ballina,
Co. Mayo.
*

Alternatively, you can email your views via customerservice@transport.ie"


Also, Article 33 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 provides for an appeal to the District Court. The Court may affirm the decision of the tester or direct that a further test be offered to you free of charge. So if you go to court you *may* get a free test.


It would be very difficult to build a case without access to sensitive information on her particular test pass rates and gender ratios.

I sincerely doubt you would be successful- whereas if we had a system similar to the UK system you might. In the UK, your driving instructor can accompany you, but cannot communicate with you. This ensures there is a degree of accountability and a third opinion on your driving should you wish to appeal.


That said, best of luck if you do wish to push this issue- I hate being the fact I'm tarred with the same brush as certain drivers due to my age and gender.

Citizen_Erased

I will pass that on to my neighbour right away then to see if its not to late for him to lodge them complaints . Un fortunatley yeah I can only get the word of other young people and people will be tarring us with the same brushing saying we were probably all driving bad . But I will pass that on defo , tanks

Elessar

Not sure how true this is, but I heard you can apply to the DoT to receive your examiners written report after a failed driving test under the freedom of information act.

kdouglas

did he not get a copy of the report after the test, when i passed mine i got handed a copy of the sheet they tick things off on

smcgiff

IIRC, you can request a supervisor to attend the test also. Assuming you don't drive a coupe you crazy youth!

DMC2005

Citizen_Erased wrote:

he failed was 4 seperate marks for "exagerated head movements" with the mirrors. What a joke! You are supposed to make it obvious when you look at the mirrors

I always thought that your mirrors should be adjusted so that you don't have to move your head to use them .... I can't imagine that it is a good idea for a driver to have to move his head to see the mirror.

Were these the only marks he got on the form?

Citizen_Erased

Yes they are the only marks that he got , he was absolutely failed on the basis of head movement . I can understand what you've said about the poper mirror adjustment but
you know what I mean when I say you have to give some movement so the tester knows, its a general and accepted thing preached by the instructers and practiced by most learner drivers. But either , even if he may have been moving his head to much it is still no grounds for him to failhis test , every single other aspect of his driving was perfect . It is just a simple case of over zealous deductions coupled with blind prejudice.

miju

i was told by my instructor to very slightly exagerate hea movements to clearly show your looking in the mirrors and that over exageration would lead to marks against during my test

your friend should have gotten a copy of his test detailing exactly what he done wrong , dare i say it he might just possibly be making excuses?

sinbadfury

I think this is yet another example of how 'dated' our driver testing is in Ireland. There is too much emphasis on the tester's interpretation of the rules, since when has their ever been consistency around pass/fail explanations ?

The only thing to do is be ready for a fail and be willing to question the result there and then, even just for clarification, especially in the likes of head movement, that is ridiculous, he probably would have failed for too little movement also....wasn't his time I guess

DrivingInfo

Hi

1. The DOT testers do-not tell you that you were moving your head to much when checking you mirrors, they do-not explain the test unlike the SGS testers.
2. It looks like he got to many marks (Grade 2) for not checking his mirrors properly.
3. Where were the marks on mirrors?
• Moving off
• On the straight
• Overtaking
• Changing Lanes
• At roundabouts
• Turning Left
• Turning Right
• Slowing / Stopping

Over use of you mirrors means the driver is not looking where they are going, that is dangerous driving. This is where a driving instructor is not doing their job properly

Mirrors should be used properly and in good time before signalling.

Last point: with respect to you your neighbour could be filling you with bull.

Rudolph Claus

DrivingInfo wrote:

Hi

1. The DOT testers do-not tell you that you were moving your head to much when checking you mirrors, they do-not explain the test unlike the SGS testers.
2. It looks like he got to many marks (Grade 2) for not checking his mirrors properly.
3. Where were the marks on mirrors?
• Moving off
• On the straight
• Overtaking
• Changing Lanes
• At roundabouts
• Turning Left
• Turning Right
• Slowing / Stopping

Over use of you mirrors means the driver is not looking where they are going, that is dangerous driving. This is where a driving instructor is not doing their job properly

Mirrors should be used properly and in good time before signalling.

Last point: with respect to you your neighbour could be filling you with bull.

Are you a driving monkey,, sorry, i mean driving tester?

mayordenis

DrivingInfo wrote:

Hi

1. The DOT testers do-not tell you that you were moving your head to much when checking you mirrors, they do-not explain the test unlike the SGS testers.
2. It looks like he got to many marks (Grade 2) for not checking his mirrors properly.
3. Where were the marks on mirrors?
• Moving off
• On the straight
• Overtaking
• Changing Lanes
• At roundabouts
• Turning Left
• Turning Right
• Slowing / Stopping

Over use of you mirrors means the driver is not looking where they are going, that is dangerous driving. This is where a driving instructor is not doing their job properly

Mirrors should be used properly and in good time before signalling.

Last point: with respect to you your neighbour could be filling you with bull.

wow how incredibly biased, you make me very much want to get sick on myself, or my local test center/tester.

Ruen

DrivingInfo is right. That scenario is the typical bullcrap being spouted by people who fail their tests everywhere and try to find any excuse to blame someone else, because they're such great drivers:rolleyes: that a Professional Tester with years of experience couldnt possibly have been fair and professional infact he/she must be, cue list of endless supposed prejudices, Racist, Ageist, Sexist, Sectarianist, Homophobic, Biased against Single people/married people, hates blondes/brunettes/redheads or whatever the best excuse is. there's so many stories I've heard of how one or another of those reasons is for someone failing but infact it's just people trying to make themselves feel better. And Citizen you're point is crap because you say you've never heard of Mrs. X passing any male testees, that's bs because how would you know even if she did? Do you hang around outside the test centre waiting for her testees to come out and take a detailed survey on who did and didnt pass? I doubt it! Tell your friend to take a few lessons and try not to be a danger to the public when trying to drive his car.
Also I just want to say I'd trust the judgement of a Qualified Tester over the opinion of an 18 year old who's only had his provisional for about a year and thinks he knows better than them anyday of the week.

Futureman

Ruen wrote:

DrivingInfo is right. That scenario is the typical bullcrap being spouted by people who fail their tests everywhere and try to find any excuse to blame someone else, because they're such great drivers:rolleyes: that a Professional Tester with years of experience couldnt possibly have been fair and professional infact he/she must be, cue list of endless supposed prejudices, Racist, Ageist, Sexist, Sectarianist, Homophobic, Biased against Single people/married people, hates blondes/brunettes/redheads or whatever the best excuse is. there's so many stories I've heard of how one or another of those reasons is for someone failing but infact it's just people trying to make themselves feel better. And Citizen you're point is crap because you say you've never heard of Mrs. X passing any male testees, that's bs because how would you know even if she did? Do you hang around outside the test centre waiting for her testees to come out and take a detailed survey on who did and didnt pass? I doubt it! Tell your friend to take a few lessons and try not to be a danger to the public when trying to drive his car.
Also I just want to say I'd trust the judgement of a Qualified Tester over the opinion of an 18 year old who's only had his provisional for about a year and thinks he knows better than them anyday of the week.

here here. I'm sick of hearing pathetic excuses (mainly on here) from people not passing their driving test - EVERYONE has a sob story, and it's usually BS!

Just learn to drive properly and stop moaning. There's no conspiracy - hundreds of people pass every day, and hundreds fail - just because people will NEVER admit they failed because they are sh*t, they come up with a lame reason as to why the tester was against them - boo hoo! Get a life...and more lessons!

C.D.

Ruen wrote:

DrivingInfo is right. That scenario is the typical bullcrap being spouted by people who fail their tests everywhere and try to find any excuse to blame someone else, because they're such great drivers:rolleyes: that a Professional Tester with years of experience couldnt possibly have been fair and professional infact he/she must be, cue list of endless supposed prejudices, Racist, Ageist, Sexist, Sectarianist, Homophobic, Biased against Single people/married people, hates blondes/brunettes/redheads or whatever the best excuse is. there's so many stories I've heard of how one or another of those reasons is for someone failing but infact it's just people trying to make themselves feel better. And Citizen you're point is crap because you say you've never heard of Mrs. X passing any male testees, that's bs because how would you know even if she did? Do you hang around outside the test centre waiting for her testees to come out and take a detailed survey on who did and didnt pass? I doubt it! Tell your friend to take a few lessons and try not to be a danger to the public when trying to drive his car.
Also I just want to say I'd trust the judgement of a Qualified Tester over the opinion of an 18 year old who's only had his provisional for about a year and thinks he knows better than them anyday of the week.

I agree that as a group, the driving testers have decades of professional experience amongst them. I also agree that a lot of people who fail do try to make themselves feel better and accuse the tester of discrimination. But that doesn't mean that a tester didn't unjustly fail somebody. Perhaps the OP has a genuine case on his hands, perhaps not. I chose to give him the benefit of the doubt, but to launch such an incoherent, pointless attack with no real substance, just wads of self-justified, presumptuous, personal opinion is small-minded and arrogant.

Ruen

Get real will ye? He tried to make out he has knowledge of a particular testers consistent failing of males, "HE" has never heard of her passing any, and passing of women, how could he possibly know? The OP is only launching some form of incoherent, pointless attack with no real substance full of self justified, presumptuos(refer to the point where he bases his presumption about the testers bias on the the failings and passings of males and females he's heard of, I doubt he knows the majority of people that particular tester just happened to test espescially considering she most likely tests several people on a daily basis 5 or 6 days a week and God knows how many years she's been doing that for) personal opinion which is only small minded and arrogant against this tester.

C.D.

Jusr becuase he has/his friend has, doesn't mean we have to. The approach I took was objective- if the tester is genuinely discriminating, and the OP's friend complains via the channels I suggested- others will have too and hopefully the situation will be remedied. If the tester is fine, nothing will be done.


He is presuming the tester is wrong.

You are presuming he is wrong.

I doubt either of you will prove each other wrong so what's the point of being nasty? I completely concede you could be right, there are many people who's standard of driving is absymal who blame the testers for their failures and shortcomings, but the standard of driving on our roads is another thread (if not forum) entirely.

Ruen

Well Done CD;)

C.D.

Ha lol, that said there are probably testers out there who do discriminate based on stereotypes but who knows? I think I'll set up a Driving Inquisition. Instead of burning witches at the stake, it will yummy mummy's with their SUV's. I'll kidnap people during the night who don't indicate on roundabouts and I'll rally the town mob after people who can't park.

MarkR

Op's only going on third hand information. If his friend believes he was discriminated against he has the option to lodge a complaint. I kind of doubt someone would put their job on the line by consistantly and supposedly obviously failing young male drivers.

If she is doing this wouldn't there be an extraordinary number of young male drivers failing / young female drivers passing above and beyond the norm?

craichoe

but heres the twist - the reason he failed was 4 seperate marks for "exagerated head movements"

Yeah, i failed on that my first time too !

And the Driving Testers do explain the test, well both of mine did anyway. They are not SGS testers either.

Basically he said its a common thing, people are told by instructors to move their head so the tester can see a demonstration of observation. Alot of the time the person focuses more on making it really obvious their looking at the mirrors, but their just staring blankly at the thing.

What you should see is the person checking their mirrors before they turn, start, stop etc.

The general thing is people flashing their head around their mirrors the whole time and this is because they dont know what their looking for.

Or

They check their mirrors AFTER they move off

IMO .. its a very valid reason to fail.

Also, its up to the tester whether they want to explain what you did wrong or not. I guess its because you could have a total nutball and want to avoid a confrontational situation.

cantdecide

craichoe wrote: »

The general thing is people flashing their head around their mirrors the whole time and this is because they dont know what their looking for

Maybe they're going from pass. mirror to rear view mirror to driver mirror in one big sweep thus ignoring what's on the road in front of them???

Wishbone Ash

React Promptly and Properly to Hazards

An applicant should show awareness by reading the road and traffic situation ahead and reacting in an
appropriate manner, or a fault may be recorded for not ‘Reacting Promptly and Properly to Hazards’.

Examples of ‘React’ faults include:

(a) Where an applicant is driving towards parked vehicles on the left, and does not move out in good
time to pass them.
(b) Where an applicant meets an oncoming vehicle which is in the process of overtaking, and the
applicant does not slow or stop as necessary, to allow the oncoming vehicle to pass by.
(c) Where an applicant’s vision is diverted down to the controls for an extended period.
(d) Where an applicant brakes hard on an amber light when the vehicle should properly have carried
on.
(e) Where an applicant drives into, or causes, or contributes unnecessarily to a ‘bottleneck’.
(f) Where an applicant intends to turn from a major road into a minor or narrow road, and obliges a
vehicle which intends to emerge from that road to reverse out of the way.
(g) Where an applicant is in a line of overtaking vehicles, and follows through blindly.
(h) Where an applicant is approaching children who may be playing, or pedestrians, and does not
show anticipation.
(i) Where an applicant is approaching animals and does not show anticipation.
(j) Where an applicant approaches traffic lights which have been green for some time, and does not
show anticipation.
(k) Where an applicant makes exaggerated use of the mirror(s) which distracts from forward
observation.
(l) Where an applicant makes exaggerated/unnecessary observations to the side or rear, which
distracts from forward observation.
(m) Where an applicant is on a slip-road, and intends to join a dual-carriageway, and stops
unnecessarily.
(n) Where an applicant splashes pedestrians with surface water.
(o) Where an applicant is turning right and misreads the intention of another oncoming road user who
is also turning right, and causes unnecessary obstruction.
(p) Where an applicant’s forward visibility is restricted by condensation.
(q) Where an applicant stops unnecessarily when e.g. turning left onto a slip lane by misreading the
main lights.
(r) Where an applicant has commenced to turn at traffic lights and stops unnecessarily when part way
through, on seeing the red light for the other road.
(s) Where an applicant does not react correctly to speed ramps.

--amadeus--

I would be fairly cautious about chasing this one too hard. Can you - under Freedom of Information - get access to a particular testers pass / fail rates? I would be very surprised if such a blatent bias was unnoticed by her supervisors or the driving instructors in the area. This is also a bit of self selecting going on here - there are a limited number of testers in a given area and so a certain percentage of all failed applicants will have been tested by any given tester. This can easily lead to a "her? wow. me too!" type pub conversation.

Moving your head to make it clear you are checking your mirrors - all of your mirrors - is important. Wagging your head from side to side pointlessly, blankly looking at rather than in your mirrirs and spending all your time looking behind you rather than in fron are all reasons to fail. When I failed my first test and was livid, I was sure I should have passed. Looking back she was right to fail me and the extra few lessons did me no long term harm and possibly some good.

Biro

cantdecide wrote: »

Maybe they're going from pass. mirror to rear view mirror to driver mirror in one big sweep thus ignoring what's on the road in front of them???

The Institute of Advanced Motoring recommends that you do this. Go from passenger, centre to driver mirror when turning right, and the opposite for turning left, their point being that if your eyes cross the windscreen, you'll automatically see what's in front of you.
Also, I can't see the passenger mirror on my car without turning my head a little, and if I tried, it would only be out of the corner of my eye which doesn't give me enough actual vision in it, so the only way I could adjust it so that I didn't have to move my head would be to bring the passenger side of the car a foot closer to me!

randomer

Any chance you can scan in and publish the sheet that your friend received back from the tester? Obviously remove any personal data.

It would be interesting to see where exactly your friend was marked down.

Alun

randomer wrote: »

Any chance you can scan in and publish the sheet that your friend received back from the tester? Obviously remove any personal data.

It would be interesting to see where exactly your friend was marked down.

I doubt if he's following this any more ... the original thread dates back to February last year.

Wishbone Ash

Alun wrote: »

I doubt if he's following this any more ... the original thread dates back to February last year.

:eek: didn't spot that before posting!

Damn you craichoe!