A-Levels or Leaving Cert?

madgal

Ok, I've asked all me mates which would they prefer... 7 subjects for the leaving cert, or 3 A-levels in depth. Most of them said A-Levels.
Personally I feel that the Leaving Cert doesn't concentrate enough on what a student is gifted at. I mean for example if your really big into the arts, you can't do 3 art courses and do an exam at the end. You have to do Irish, Maths, English, plus a few extra.
The options for leaving cert are quite boring, whereas A-levels you can do different subjects.

Leaving Cert Subjects

• Accounting
• Agricultural Economics†
• Agricultural Science
• Ancient Greek†
• Applied Mathematics
• Arabic
• Art
• Biology
• Business
• Chemistry†
• Classical Studies†
• Construction Studies
• Design and Communication Graphics
• Economics†
• English
• Engineering
• French
• Geography
• German
• Hebrew
• History
• Home Economics
• Irish
• Italian
• Japanese
• Latin†
• Materials Technology - Metal
• Materials Technology - Wood
• Mathematics
• Music
• Physics†
• Physics with Chemistry†
• Portuguese
• Religious Education
• Russian
• Spanish
• Technical Drawing
• Technology

Whereas A-Levels offer subjects that sound more appealing such as

• Accounting
• Ancient history
• Archaeology
• Art and design
• Biblical hebrew
• Biology
• Business studies
• Chemistry
• Citizenship
• Classics and classical civilisation
• Communication studies
• Computing
• Critical thinking (offered at A2 from September 2005)
• Dance
• Design and technology
• Drama and theatre studies
• Economics
• Electronics
• Engineering
• English language
• English language and literature
• English literature
• Environmental science
• European studies (AS qualification is being withdrawn in 2006)
• Film studies
• General studies
• Geography
• Geology
• Government and politics
• Graphic design
• Greek (classical)
• Health and social care
• History
• History of art
• Home economics
• Human biology
• ICT
• Latin
• Law
• Leisure studies
• Mathematics
• Mathematics (use of)
• Media studies
• Modern foreign languages
• Music
• Music technology
• Performing arts/performance studies
• Philosophy
• Photography
• Physical education and sport
• Physics
• Psychology
• Religious studies
• Science
• Science for public understanding
• Social policy
• Sociology
• Statistics
• Textiles
• Travel and tourism
• Welsh
• World development

I mean hello? Imagine doing dance for 2 years and getting assessed at the end of it?

Well in all fairness the only catch is that you have to do exams at the end of 5th year and 6th year... but at least if you fail something at AS level, you can repeat it for A-Levels, so then 3 weeks in June don't decide your final career...
My point is... The leaving cert sucks!

md99

At least both systems cater for the Jewish pop.

Anyone doing Hebrew Studies?

Shabat, Shalom!

AdMMM

I think the mechanics of the Leaving Cert are spot on. I do think an A-Level like subject base would be more beneficial to the population. We would see greater participation numbers as well as people would opt to stay and sit their Leaving if they had the option to do subjects that they have a natural aptitude for.

It's important to note that most schools in the UK don't offer every available subject and most only offer as broad a range as most Irish schools. There are, of course, many private and specialised schools in the UK which do offer the more obscure subjects.

I would be of the opinion that English and Maths should remain compulsary, while the student is allowed pick 3 other subjects (as a minimum). A system of continous assessment should supplement the actual Leaving Cert as it can be aruged that stress plays far too much of a factor in the current layout.

However, such a radical reform is not likely to happen in my lifetime. One day the Government and their plethora of advisors will realise that reform is needed on this kind of scale!

yurmothrintites

I know someone from northern ireland who did the A levels and he had a choice to do the leaving as well. He got 4A* and is doing medecine in trinity. I mean it's so much easier to get into college here with Alevels and GSCEs.

The problem however is that the points system is so stupid. Someone might get the points for primary teaching for example but be extremely shy and unsociable! I think there should be some sort of reform in the education system. I mean the fella in trinity is a raging alco who brings cans into the shower with him! Seriously!

Lia_lia

Wow, those subject sound very appealing.

Yeah, the points system is a joke.

I should have stayed in England. Only was there till senior infants though:rolleyes:

ninty9er

The Leaving Cert is spot on...what sort a waster couldn't get all A* in A levels being able to cherry pick to the extent they can, they don't have any compulsory subjects!!!!

The points system is internationally regarded as the most equitable way of assigning college places (i.e. Georgina Ahern had no more chance of getting into Trinity than Timmy from Ballyfermot or Dún Laoighre...whereas Euan Blair or Prince William can get University places based on who they are to a greater extent of how academic they are)...

We have an educational system that is very highly regarded internationally and you guys would probably not be sitting at a computer were it not for the engineering of the current education system, because the Celtic Tiger would never have existed without it

RANT OVER

JC 2K3

Yeah, A Levels are too focused, too early IMO.

The LC is broad and is, as the above posted mentioned, internationally renouned.

Corruptedmorals

Some of their subjects are cool, but I think 7 subjects broadens your horizons and your options more than 3 would.

I don't have a problem with the points system, and aren't they introducing a fairer system for all courses over 550 anyway? Though it must have sucked a few years ago, when the demand was high and it really was a 'points race'. Last year, a load of courses dropped, and it's predicted to remain the same for this year. it's meant to go up again in a few years though.

I wouldn't like to be doing A-levels really, and the UCAS system is stupid. Grade predictions, wtf? They get their offers based on that, ridiculous. And their college fees are very high now..

WildCardDoW

It took them 15+ years to introduce a calculator into maths, and thats a minimum estimate. So, yeah...:p

philologos

md99 wrote:

At least both systems cater for the Jewish pop.

Anyone doing Hebrew Studies?

Shabat, Shalom!

but both don't cater for the larger Arab populations. (fair play to the LC for catering for Arabs )

yurmothrintites

The leaving cert is the most advanced education system in the world but I feel interviews of some sort in the points system for special carrers like teaching and medecine should be introduced to some extent.

madgal

How is the leaving cert so advanced?

Lads come on like, how many people actually use their Gaelige after college? Yeah maths and english fair enough, but the A-Levels are more geared to those who know what they like. You can drop one after AS levels.

JC 2K3

What's wrong with Irish? How would anyone not in a college course directed towards them use LC English and Maths after school?

You have college to focus on more specific subjects. At LC level most people aren't ready to study in such an in depth and specific manner, therefore the LC works well due to the broad range of subjects you must study.

madgal

Irish is a dieing language, I mean Im moving out of Cork after this, and I don't need the language.. I mean who in Belfast speaks Irish like?

JC 2K3

^Who in Belfast recites Shakespeare or does integration problems on a daily basis?

madgal

Who in Cork recites it? I mean I wish I had more of an option to do which I wanted, but with the bands broken up, I only got 2 of 4 subjects I wanted to do. Plus, I feel that 3 would be a lot easier to tackle than 7.

JC 2K3

^Exactly, easier, less of a challenge. The challenging nature of the LC makes it a good system.

The fact you only got 2/4 of your subject choices sucks. I'd have moved school, but that is a local issue and is off topic here.

A broad education means learning a load of seemingly "useless" stuff, but in the long run the fact you have learned it makes a difference.

AdMMM

If English wasn't a compulsary subject then I'd hate to see the deplorable standard of English that would result.

Of the 7 intelligences, the Leaving Cert currently examines 4 (Bodily-kinesthetic, Interpersonal and Intrapersonal are all absent). Surely it should aim at offering the opportunity to examine all 7.

madgal

I did move schools, in fact we tried every school. They do coursework throughout the school term which goes towards their grades.
Whereas certain students sit on their bums and do feck all for the entire 2 years and go through the leaving cert.
The coursework for A levels prepares you for college in a better way.

JC 2K3

Leaving Cert students do feck all for 2 years? That's a good one...

And several subjects do have a limited amount of coursework like History, Geography, Home Ec, Art etc. And in Physics, Chemistry and Biology it is required that students do specific experiments.

And I believe college should be different to secondary school. School is about building an academic foundation, college is about studying something in depth.

MrMatisse

Id do A-levels. The leaving isnt recognised by Uni's in oz and some other countries and doesnt have the international reputation that a levels have. You spend your your time learning a load of stuff that you have no intrest in off by heart and forgeat it after the exam. you also dont have to waste your time with irish.

madgal

O yeah for flips sake. I do Physics and Chemistry and writing up expirements that takes 10 minutes at most. A lot of my friends sit for hours at their coursework to have it on time.
And I didn't say that 'All' Leaving students do feck all, i said some.

Corruptedmorals

Not everybody thinks Irish is a waste of time. Personally, I think it'd be a sad day if Irish was made an option..not wanting to learn your own language? Weird really. My second choice is Irish Studies in TCD...:D

europerson

I am a university student, who sat the Leaving Certificate in 2004. I attend a college, which has a high number of British and Northern Irish students, who have mostly gone through the A-Level system, so I would consider myself at least somewhat able to comment on this, as opposed to someone who is only currently sitting his/her Leaving Cert. The A-Level system has a number of advantages and disadvantages, as has the Leaving Cert.

A-Levels allow a student to focus on a group of subjects, which interest them especially, but, at the same time, students end up with no broad range of knowledge, which could support them any university course in the way the Leaving Cert could. I know the British government has gone some way to offset this with the introduction of AS-Levels, but I see many UK students entering college without even a basic knowledge of maths, something which is essential for all but a few arts subjects. I remember in first year some students, who had only done GCSE maths, and they couldn't even do basic calculus.

A major disadvantage of the A-Level system is that students have practically to decide what they want to study at university after their equivalent of the Junior Cert, the GCSEs. The Leaving Cert is extraordinarily fair, because it has so little course-work. Course-work is easy to plagiarise, whereas exams mean that everyone is on an equal footing (note, however, that they do cause the problem of grinds and grind-schools, which, of course I am not condoning; they are, of course, deplorable institutions, which do little but give the Leaving Cert a bad name). In the same way, the CAO system is very fair, because it is entirely objective and is, in my opinion, the fairest way to allocate third-level places.

The Leaving Cert is internationally renowned: many countries in the developed and the developing worlds have copied the Irish system to a great extent: even in the UK, it has been admired, and the Scottish Highers system was largely modelled on the success of the Leaving Cert.

In fact, the Leaving Cert is considered by teachers, who have taught both its syllabi and A-level syllabi, to be every bit as dfficult. Indeed, LC HL Chemistry and Accounting are said to be far more difficult than their A-Level counterparts. A weakness of the Leaving Cert is that there is no politics subject, something that would flow on naturally from compulsory CSPE at Junior Cert level.

Remember too that many of the so-called "modern" A-Level subjects like Dance and Media Studies aren't accepted by many universities.

Naikon

Its hard to believe there is no programming or computing course on the LC in this day and age, whereas stuff like classics is taught:mad:
The A-level system seems fairer because it caters for a far wider range of interests and abilities,whereas our system assumes people
need stuff like Classics or Shakespearian literature.

I am shocked that people can abandon maths in the A-level system.
Maths should be the only compulsory subject alongside Technical or Functional English.
People should remember that even a bare pass in ordinary maths or an A in ordinary or honours is more important for plenty of subjects in comparison to a narrow range of arts courses, as even though I am not Uber proficient at maths, I realise and respect its importance, I mean almost everything around you is modeled or a resultant of maths(Cliche I know but its true.)

RANT OVER!

madgal

But thats my point.
The leaving cert is behind with some subjects. Such as computers, and some of the arts.

JC 2K3

I'd love to see the A Levels ICT exam though. I'd say it'd be laughable, and possibly unrecognised by many colleges.

md99

JC 2K3 wrote:

Leaving Cert students do feck all for 2 years? That's a good one...

No it's not. It happens constantly, especially in my school. Certain schools just breed crammers.

PurpleFistMixer

It'd be great to do some of the subjects they offer for the A-levels.. like Computing, Photography, or Psychology.
However, I'd hate to only be doing 3 subjects. Leave that kind of specialisation up to college, I say. Going into fifth year most people don't know what they like let alone what they want to do, so they just pick general subjects (a business, a science, something else). If they had to make such specific decisions so early on I can't imagine what they'd do. And I'd say the prospect of doing something so deeply is quite intimidating as well.

ninty9er

In fairness...coursework is of irrelevance for college....I'm in my 4th semester and the only subjects I've had twice are German, Maths, Economics.

Even at that the courses are totally different, like Junior Cert then Leaving cert....you may get 20% coursework which is a lot easier for Universities to handle as a TA will only have 40-50 students and teache for 4-5 hours a week whereas a secondary teacher will have a timetable of approx 18 hours a week if not more and a lot more students to deal with.....

My aunt teaches GCSE and A-Level English and says that the coursework idea is crap because it places such a burden on the teacher to discover possible plagarism

Think of your CSPE project, how many people wrote the same thing and just got the teacher to sign it??? most people I know!!! "lads, here's what ye write, just juggle the words a bit"

College is not very coursework based in reality, modularity just makes it seem more course work focused than it actually is, I've only got 1 project this semester for 20% of Marketing and 10% homework in Statistics.

The current subject lineup hasn't caused much trouble before now, but could do with a bit of reform, having said that IT is a Junior Cert option, the equivalent of GCSE; the qualification most UK students will complete their post-primary education with

lilmizzme

ninty9er wrote:

(i.e. Georgina Ahern had no more chance of getting into Trinity than Timmy from Ballyfermot or Dún Laoighre...whereas Euan Blair or Prince William can get University places based on who they are to a greater extent of how academic they are)...

Which is why the points system is the best thing that's possibly ever come out of this country....at the end of the day, no one gives a **** if u own a mansion in dalkey, that your father earns 100,000K a year...in june,ur just a number, and the person sitting beside u as jut as much a chance as u as getting into trinity, or ucd or dcu or wherever. Seriously, get rid of the points system and the country is screwed. Left right and centre will be people buying their way in colleges, using contacts or whatever.

And continuious assesment? If you think about it, the stres only really kicks in after xmas of 6th year. I don't think I could do with the constant pressure to do well in every exam for 2 years straight.

The Lc has advantages over the Alevels, and the Bac, because or its range. You're not confined to certain topics. Face it, you might hate maths, but you cant just run away from it, you need to be able to do simple maths, all through your life. Same with english, you need to lern how to read and write....just because you dont like it doesnt mean you ignore it in the hopes it will go away.


And thats my two cents on the matter!!:D