2.2 Litre Diesel Engines

jayok

It is just me or is the diesel world all going 2.2 litre? Not that I am all that familiar with diesel development, but it seems all manufactuers have a 2.2 litre diesel on offer. For example,

Honda's first diesel engine is a 2.2
Alfa are offering a 2.2 JTD now
Lexus are have the IS220D
SAAB have the 2.2TiD
Ford have the 2.2TDCi

Ok the cc may vary between the manuactuers but the net effect is about 2.2 litres.

What on earth is so special with a 2.2 litre diesel? A while ago it used to be all 1.9 TDI's but the newer cars, it's 2.2 or bust. Any reason why? Is it common rail is most efficient with 2.2? Or what?

Wishbone Ash

jayok wrote:

Honda's first diesel engine is a 2.2
Alfa are offering a 2.2 JTD now
Lexus are have the IS220D
SAAB have the 2.2TiD
Ford have the 2.2TDCi

And the Merc 220.

ciarsd

I don't think Alfa have a 2.2JTD, the current top diesel is their 2.4JTD.
They do however have a 2.2JTS (Petrol).

Getting back to your point, yeah there seems to be a trend starting

CrowdedHouse

....and the Honda and Lexus (don't know about the others)are over 2200cc so 2.3L tax rates here -€755 pa ouch !

jayok

ciarsd wrote:

I don't think Alfa have a 2.2JTD, the current top diesel is their 2.4JTD. They do however have a 2.2JTS (Petrol).

Must have mis-seen this on the back of a car passing me then.

Another 2.2 Diesel is Nissan's foray (I think in the X-trail).

Lex Luthor

any coincidence that they are all using the same engine?

Toyota have now also gone to 2.2D

Biro

Didn't saab axe their 2.2 diesel and put in the 1.9 from Fiat instead?
Toyota and Lexus have the same 2.2 170bhp engine. Honda have their own one.
I don't remember Alfa having any apart from the 1.9 two options and the 2.4, and apparently they'll be replacing that with a 3.0.
Dunno where the Ford one comes from, but don't they have a connection with the PSA group for diesels?

galwaytt

well, you see, it's because it's a good size, technically, for a car, offering good power and economy.

It is only in Ireland that we get penalised for manufacturers's efforts to bring us the latest/greatest.........and now we're getting hammered for the greenest and leanest (mpg, that is..) too.

They're not going to build an 'Irish tax-spec car' anymore - they used to, but now don't. Just look at VAG engines - emissions laws have killed the venerable 1.9 diesel, so now it's a 2.0. But that brings us into the higher VRT range....

.......oh, don't get me started on that again!

bazz26

Most manufacturers now offer diesel engines in more than one capacity similar to petrol engines. VRT and road tax based on engine size in Ireland just make the benefits of these higher capacity diesel engines redundant.

Most are only available as special orders here or not at all.

jdf

galwaytt wrote:

They're not going to build an 'Irish tax-spec car' anymore - QUOTE]

I think you'll find that there is a 1600cc engine available in the 3 Series BMW on sale in Ireland that doesn't feature anywhere else in the world

furtzy

Biro wrote:

Didn't saab axe their 2.2 diesel and put in the 1.9 from Fiat instead?

Thats correct. The 2.2 TiD is gone now and replaced by the 1.9 common rail from Fiat/Alfa.

Its a pity Honda didn't go down the 1.9 route as the 2.2 is penalised in our VRT/Road tax system

bazz26

furtzy wrote:

Its a pity Honda didn't go down the 1.9 route as the 2.2 is penalised in our VRT/Road tax system

Honda don't have much interest in the Irish market. They sell the Civic with a 1.4 litre engine, the only other one available is a 1.8 litre. Not alot of people here want a compact family hatchback/saloon that size with a 1.8 litre engine. Your then into the Mondeo/6/Avensis, etc territory at that stage. A 1.6 litre would have been more suited to the Civic. They used to sell the old model Civic with a 1.7 litre diesel engine in the UK, it was never offered here strangly.

ninty9er

CrowdedHouse wrote:

....and the Honda and Lexus (don't know about the others)are over 2200cc so 2.3L tax rates here -€755 pa ouch !

It's 2.2 alright 2.3 is €786 which isn't much of a jump considering 1.0 is €151 and 1.1 is €227

The Toyota is the same engine but the 2.0 is still in production...supposedly because they put so much money into developing it. The 1.4 and 2.0 are available in the Auris, but the Corolla has a more limited choice of engines....the Auris Sol now comes with the 1.6 from the Avensis so there's a lot of engines now outside their taditional "Irish" base

Lex Luthor

the 2.0 diesel is still available in the Avensis but I imagine it wont be for very long as they only come in 2.2D in UK and the Corolla Verso is now also only available in 2.2D.

bazz26

Toyota redeveloped the 2.0 D4-D last year when the facelifted Avensis appeared. It has 125bhp and meets current European emission regulations. Afaik it is a different engine to the old 2.0 litre 116bhp version available since 2000. The new 125bhp engine is alot quieter, more refined and economical plus it comes with a 6 speed manual gearbox. I doubt they will drop it so quickly.

The 2.2 D4-D in the Avensis has 150bhp and is only available in the Avensis and Rav4 in Ireland. I think the Rav4 version has only 136bhp.

The 2.2 D4-D with 180bhp is available in the Corolla Verso and Auris but not in Ireland. It is also the same engine in the Lexus IS220.

Lex Luthor

bazz26 wrote:

Toyota redeveloped the 2.0 D4-D last year when the facelifted Avensis appeared. It has 125bhp and meets current European emission regulations. Afaik it is a different engine to the old 2.0 litre 116bhp version available since 2000. The new 125bhp engine is alot quieter, more refined and economical plus it comes with a 6 speed manual gearbox. I doubt they will drop it so quickly.

The 2.2 D4-D in the Avensis has 150bhp and is only available in the Avensis and Rav4 in Ireland. I think the Rav4 version has only 136bhp.

The 2.2 D4-D with 180bhp is available in the Corolla Verso and Auris but not in Ireland. It is also the same engine in the Lexus IS220.

bazz, any idea what th emissus would have in her Verso then...? its a Apr 05 2.0D4D

bazz26

Lex Luthor wrote:

bazz, any idea what th emissus would have in her Verso then...? its a Apr 05 2.0D4D

More than likely it is the 116bhp version. The 126bhp was only introduced to the Toyota range in the middle of last year and has a 6 speed manual gearbox as standard. It seems the only diesel in the Corolla Verso now is the 2.2 litre. I'd say you could count the number of those sold here on one hand.

Lex Luthor

bazz26 wrote:

More than likely it is the 116bhp version. The 126bhp was only introduced to the Toyota range in the middle of last year and has a 6 speed manual gearbox as standard. It seems the only diesel in the Corolla Verso now is the 2.2 litre. I'd say you could count the number of those sold here on one hand.

its the same as the 2.0D. We were told there were less than 5 Sol versions sold in the whole country

colm_mcm

The verso would be the 116bhp engine as fitted to the 00 Avensis and 03-06 new model.

Expect changes to Avensis 2.0 diesel engines very soon.....

maidhc

colm_mcm wrote:

Expect changes to Avensis 2.0 diesel engines very soon.....

Again?

I'm surprised they don't sell the 2.0 in England. Even there a great many people want smaller capacity cars.

Lex Luthor

maidhc wrote:

Again?

I'm surprised they don't sell the 2.0 in England. Even there a great many people want smaller capacity cars.

afaik, uk tax their cars on emissions rather than capacity, but I could be wrong. the co2 emissions on a 2.2 diesel would be roughly the same as a 1.4 petrol so its not such a big deal if they dont sell the 2.0

maidhc

Lex Luthor wrote:

afaik, uk tax their cars on emissions rather than capacity, but I could be wrong. the co2 emissions on a 2.2 diesel would be roughly the same as a 1.4 petrol so its not such a big deal if they dont sell the 2.0

Indeed... but the co2 emissions on a 2.0 would be less, and it would most likely drink less fuel. And to be honest, the 2.0 D4D is more than adequate for most people.

BostonB

galwaytt wrote:

...They're not going to build an 'Irish tax-spec car' anymore...

Theres the 1.3cdti Astra, Focus 1.6 TDCi.
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/vauxhall-astra-1.3-cdti-1004766.html

http://www.gmeurope.com/news/2005/news_050607.html

bazz26

colm_mcm wrote:

The verso would be the 116bhp engine as fitted to the 00 Avensis and 03-06 new model.

Expect changes to Avensis 2.0 diesel engines very soon.....

They only upgraded it last year. What have they planned for it? If they increase the bhp it will be very similar to the 2.2 version. Maybe a 1.8 D4-D would fit in nicely. I know they are introducing new 1.6/1.8 dual VVTi engines soon too but it will probably won't be until the next Avensis late next year.

Lex Luthor

maidhc wrote:

Indeed... but the co2 emissions on a 2.0 would be less, and it would most likely drink less fuel. And to be honest, the 2.0 D4D is more than adequate for most people.

I don't know the exact figures maidhc, but I would think that Toyota are not going to manufacture an engine just for the Irish market alone. Obviously they do well here, but not enough to justify the costs. I have read a lot of posts mentioning that the 2.0D didn't have enough power and a lot of owners of them wish it had a little more. The 2.2D supposedly has that but apparently the difference between the 2 is not very noticeable.
You can't please all of the people all of the time

maidhc

Lex Luthor wrote:

You can't please all of the people all of the time

Indeed. I am just assuming that there are enough people in Europe who place a greater emphasis on running costs over power to make the 2.0 worthwhile.

(the again the 2.0D4D is a thirsty beast anyway, an I can see many 2.2s being more efficient than it.)

BTW the new mondeo will getting the 1.8 TDCI and a 1.6 petrol on both sides of the Irish sea.