Affordable Houses are crap

Supercell

KingKenny7 wrote:

As you can see, its low to middle, is 45k low??

This depresses me a little, I'm earning around the 40K mark and would think of myself as a reasonably skilled worker - no-one could walk off the street and do my job without quite a lot of training.

However it seems I'm a low income earner that should forego all dreams of owning my own place, hell my taxes seem to be going these days to subsidise those 45k+ earners more deserving of state benefits than me.

Or I could just bugger off somewhere else and take my skills there.
The 45K+ earner subsidised housing really really makes my blood boil, if ever there was a tipping point its that for me.

CherieAmour

Longfield wrote:

However it seems I'm a low income earner that should forego all dreams of owning my own place, hell my taxes seem to be going these days to subsidise those 45k+ earners more deserving of state benefits than me.

You don't have to forego those dreams! You can apply for aff housing via the normal route which is for people EARNING 40K AND UNDER! The 45k - 58k relates to the Initiative and not the Scheme and the reason the bands are higher is because the homes are much dearer and people under 40k wouldn't be able to afford them. That's one of the reasons why they are seperated.

For those asking for a link explaining the difference between Initiative and Scheme, there isn't one per se, I rang up and asked and the council explained it to me. It's the clearest on the Fingal website. www.fingalcoco.ie If you go to that into the Aff Housing link, you will see along the left hand side that there are 2 seperate links for regular and initiative.

Calina

CherieAmour,

while I appreciate your information and your distinction between the two, what I see here is a second layer of bureaucracy. Affordable housing schemes and initiatives are becoming fairly common.

The issue is it that they sidestep the problem which is that we have a very, very expensive asset bubble in this country. The problem with bubbles is that they have a nasty habit of bursting and things are already starting to look a little questionable there.

What I would prefer to see is a streamlined affordable housing scheme based on social need - ie, serious low income families by which I mean people who are on below average income. It is a travesty in this country that we have several affordable housing set ups which include increasing numbers of what are relatively well off people. Sure they can't afford houses right now, but they can afford rent.

I also think that when you see the introduction of this scheme and that scheme and the other scheme, between shared housing this, affordable scheme that, affordable initiative something else, it becomes very clear to me why our health system is in a total mess. We can't do things simply, we have too many, lots of different ways of doing things.

It's just nice - in a left of centre kind of way - to see it actually happening in front of your eyes.

I'm against the various affordable housing programs as they exist at the moment because as I see it, they are distorting the market quite a bit, and there is some suggestion that they are particularly distorting the second hand market. In the same way as the FTB grant years ago was introduced to assist developers, I see that the primary motivation of this is to assist developers. Otherwise, the property market is starting to correct - there are copious examples of sellers bringing down asking prices, and of sellers complaining that no one is even looking at their houses. There are developers handing out freebies like mortgages paid for six months. This does not happen if property is selling. If property is not selling, people are going to have to reduce prices if they want to sell. That is how a correction works.

If the government - for once - stayed out of this mess and let it correct, the FTBs floating around probably wouldn't need any assistance if they waited one or two years.

But of course, I forgot, this is the now generation. I want it all, I want it all, I want it all and I want it NOW.

(attrib Queen).

mentalson

CherieAmour wrote:

You don't have to forego those dreams! You can apply for aff housing via the normal route which is for people EARNING 40K AND UNDER! .

except that there is a lot more housing now reserved for those on over 45K. If you are on under 45k you are far less likely to get an offer e.g. in Cork which refuses to enforce Part V and where there are long waiting lists while at the same time there is plenty of subsidised housing available, but only for high earners that are on over 45k

Kingsize

Cantab. wrote:

If you someone said that to me in the real world, I'd have them up in court.


.

If it was the real world I'd probably be up in court alright but It probably wouldn't be for that.
Nice that you acknowledge the real world though,now try living in it.

msscarlet

Affordable Housing Initiative or Affordable Housing Scheme. What next the Affordable Housing Giveaway or Affordable Housing Plan?
It's still affordable Housing no matter what they call it. I think they are just confusing people and clogging the Councils with additional paperwork.

The affordable homes partneship was established to fast track delivery of afforable homes, Instead they have just added another layer of bureacracy, and added to the confusion.

It's clear to see the confusion on this board. So many people confused about the income limits for example. I know lastest initative minimum income is €45K.
The affordable homes partnership brought out a booklet last year stated that you can finance your affordable home through IIB,EBS, Bank of Ireland or you local authority(council). It also states that you may finance your property through the shared ownership scheme.

Yet I've heard that you cannot finance the latest intitative through IIB, local authority or the shared ownership scheme.

Check out http://www.affordablehomespartnership.ie/home/index.aspx?id=15


Why did the affordable homes partnership annouce an initative but yet you still have to apply to the council.
The council already have hundreds of people who wish to avail of affordable homes. Why can't they work of their current lists.

Have been waiting almost 3 years with Dublin City Council.

Why don't the affordable homes partnership accept applications directly?
Why don't they offer some form of shared ownership scheme or begin to buy scheme.
It's a joke to have affordable housing when a person earning above average wage cannot even qualify for such a scheme.

Say for instance in the lastest initative you wish to apply to the following local authority. Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council, South Dublin County Council, Kildare County Council and Meath County Council. That's 5 applications that you must submit.

Why don't affordable homes partnership have one preference form, so you select where you are interested in. They could keep your details on file and next time there is another release of homes on offer, offer to next person on waiting list.
If people were given a number at time of inital application they would know their position on waiting list This would be a transparent way of distributing homes, instead of current lottery.
How do you know you are even entered into such a lottery??????

The Irish Times recently had an article about affordable homes asking why there are a lot of council officals who have obtained affordable homes.
Maybe there will be a tribunal in the future.

Cantab.

msscarlet wrote:

The Irish Times recently had an article about affordable homes asking why there are a lot of council officals who have obtained affordable homes.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest - this is Ireland we live in, remember?

msscarlet wrote:

Maybe there will be a tribunal in the future.

At which stage the horse will have bolted.

Whilst I agree with your suspicions about favourtism on the part of county council officials, the real dodginess is occuring with the councils buying up huge swathes of pre-crash, over-priced, poor-quality properties off developers. Cosy relatonships are part and parcel of Irish life I'm afraid.

juddd

Post deleted

Cantab.

juddd wrote:

I have been approved for affordable housing to the amount of 150k + after going through a ridiculous amount of paperwork that I had to re-produce when called in for an interview, then I was told to set up a standing order into a savings account for a certain amount each month, I took my time doing this as I thought there was no hurry on it as i was not told "set it up before this date etc" then I got a letter saying I had to set it up within 10 days or my application would be cancelled, after I was approved I read on the form that not only do I have to pay the council legal fees(1,900) I also have to arrange my own legal fees I even asked the woman at the interview what legal fees will I have to pay and she said just the 1,900 to the council???, thats 2 sets of legal fees to pay, if I was going for a 100% mortgage I would only have to pay one set of legal fees.
I can only refuse 2 properties, and if I do refuse 2 properties I will be taken off the housing list and will have to re-apply all over again, I have no choice in where I want to live or the type of housing I want to live in, sure I can pick either north of nass road or south, I choose all areas in SDCC so as to get better options, and all that seems to be getting built are apartments,duplexs and so on, where are all the houses??? I see new houses being built called "castlelyon" in newcastle and they are built with the environemnt in mind and have solar power for heating water etc,,,,I dont see theser houses being offered for affordable housing,,,,20% of all new developements are to go to affordable housing MY ARSE!! and dont get me started on the developers buying out the government, someone I know told me that a developer he knows bought out the gov because he was going to live in one of the houses he built and did not want any wasters living in the same area.
I am not putting down people who live in aprtments or duplex's, as I may be offered something similar myself, but I bet you would prefer to live in a house, I know I would, imagine trying to get furniture up 4 flights of stairs, or trying to raise kids from the 3rd or 4th floor and not being able to let your youngest child play safely in your back garden because you have none, instead the child must stay near to mum and dad in the apartment...aggghhhh I could go on but I will stop there...

Did the government not learn from ballymun, they closed down the flats and built houses for the residents, now the rest of dublin is turning into ballymun flats and ballymun gets the houses....maybe I will move to ballymun...lol

There's no such thing as a free lunch my friend (whatever about a free house).

This hand-out mentality, which you illustrate above, annoys me a little (please don't take this personally) - I say think not what your government can do, but what you can do for yourself. We do live in a booming economy after all - there are still plenty of jobs and opportunities for people.

You'd be better off renting in a nice area close to work for a while, especially given the current market trend and drastic change in sentiment. If you really want to live on the edge of the Naas road in a 1-bed flat, I'd bet you could pick one up this time next year for less than the offering from the county council.

Just like you can make 20k a year on a 200k apartment in a rising market, you will lose 20k a year in a corresponding falling market. You're better off renting (by a long way) in 2007 - all the economic and anecdotal indicators are lining up in the same direction. The risk is just too great (I think it's absolutely massive) to justify making any kind of a rational venture into the Irish property market, affordable home or not.

Victor

msscarlet wrote:

The Irish Times recently had an article about affordable homes asking why there are a lot of council officals who have obtained affordable homes. Maybe there will be a tribunal in the future.

Perhaps, but I think part of it is the psychology of knowing how to fill in the forms "right".

Cantab.

Victor wrote:

Perhaps, but I think part of it is the psychology of knowing how to fill in the forms "right".

Kinetic^

The amount of BS on this thread is crazy.

Afforable houses are crap........if you don't like what's on offer, then rent, or better yet...........improve your career so you can buy where you want.

Seriously, some of you a$$holes make me sick..........oh noes I can't get a 4bed semi D with a master ensuite and a nice garden, what am I to do? :rolleyes: It's very hard to get your ideal home first time around so why not make a sacrifice first time around and build up your equity so you can buy in a nicer area in a few years.

warrenaldo

exatly kenny
totally agree - and the affordable housing is a scheme that does just that.
lots of people have taken these "crap" places and are very happy with them.
So if ya dont like it - then dont do it.

Cantab.

warrenaldo wrote:

So if ya dont like it - then dont do it.

True. But the crux of this discussion is why government are effectively giving money to people on high wages, whilst those on low/medium wages are excluded.

Government tax money should not be used for enhancing the personal wealth of already privilidged citizens.

Kinetic^

Cantab. wrote:

True. But the crux of this discussion is why government are effectively giving money to people on high wages, whilst those on low/medium wages are excluded.

Government tax money should not be used for enhancing the personal wealth of already privilidged citizens.

Well there's still repayments involved so surely the lower end people would not be able to make them? How much do people expect the government to subsidise?

warrenaldo

yes but the whole point is that the people on these HIGH wages. although they seem high! these people are still first time buyers who cannot afford to buy there own place in dublin. People on 45k a year wont get anyway near a mortgage for a 2 bed appartment even.
Now fair enough when it moves up to the higher end its a bit different.
But its still helping out strugling first time buyers.

And the main reason that they have these income limits is that no1 under 45k can afford the repayments on those properties.

Only option would be to sell the properties cheaper so lower income people can afford them.


Personally i dont see why they cannot give the properties to the people who have been waiting a long time on the affordable housing list.
Seems a disgrace to me that people who have been waiting for a year + (2 years from opne poster) on affordable housing lists are just overlooked for these schemes.

Kinetic^

warrenaldo wrote:

yes but the whole point is that the people on these HIGH wages. although they seem high! these people are still first time buyers who cannot afford to buy there own place in dublin. People on 45k a year wont get anyway near a mortgage for a 2 bed appartment even.
Now fair enough when it moves up to the higher end its a bit different.
But its still helping out strugling first time buyers.

And the main reason that they have these income limits is that no1 under 45k can afford the repayments on those properties.

Only option would be to sell the properties cheaper so lower income people can afford them.


Personally i dont see why they cannot give the properties to the people who have been waiting a long time on the affordable housing list.
Seems a disgrace to me that people who have been waiting for a year + (2 years from opne poster) on affordable housing lists are just overlooked for these schemes.

Oh right, so because people can't afford to live in Dublin, they should be given cheap houses so they can stay here..............BS!!!! If you can't afford to live somewhere then you find somewhere you can afford. The whole handout attitude in Ireland is a joke.

A person making €45k, could get qualified for mortgage payments of up to about €1250, which imo could get you a nice place outside of Dublin and there's lots of them vacant.

warrenaldo

So what your saying is that anybody who was born in dublin and grown up there with their family. If they havent got a well payed job - then tough ****.

If its a single parent with a kid who cant afford to buy in dublin. they have to move away from all family and friends in order to get a place?

thats the situation that is facing a friend of mine. the council will give her a council house - but if she takes it then she cannot work. she must stay at home. she wants to work - so her only option would be to move away from her life in dublin

warrenaldo

So what your saying is that anybody who was born in dublin and grown up there with their family. If they havent got a well payed job - then tough ****.

If its a single parent with a kid who cant afford to buy in dublin. they have to move away from all family and friends in order to get a place?

thats the situation that is facing a friend of mine. the council will give her a council house - but if she takes it then she cannot work. she must stay at home. she wants to work - so her only option would be to move away from her life in dublin

Kinetic^

Yes, I suppose I am saying TS. It's not the government's responsibility that your friend (or anyone else for that matter) can't afford to live in Dublin......regardless of their circumstances. If they want a house in Dublin then it's going to cost..........a lot. I feel sorry for the people that can't afford to live near friends/family but there's an ever increasing amount of them due to the high prices. It's a sh!t deal but you have to take what life gives you and make the best of it.

warrenaldo

yes but if this or any other government want to stay in power then they are going to have to offer some sort of scheme.

and yes it is giving houses cheap to people.

But thats what people want. maybe you dont want your tax money spent on that but a lot of people want there money spent on it.

Its an issue that all familys think about. No mother or father want there kids to live miles away down the country. visa versa(well most cases)

Its a major political issue and if any government offered to stop affordable housing - ie cheap houses(like you suggest) then they dont have a hope in the upcomming election.

Kinetic^

So how much do you propose they give off each property? 10%/20%/30%/40%?????

We may as well resort vote Sinn Fein in as they'll be likely to administer communism so that this whole "Gimme gimme gimme" attitude can be satisfied.

Explain to me why it's the government's responsibility to keep families together? In as little BS as well, if you don't mind.

Calina

Kenny 5 wrote:

Yes, I suppose I am saying TS. It's not the government's responsibility that your friend (or anyone else for that matter) can't afford to live in Dublin......regardless of their circumstances. If they want a house in Dublin then it's going to cost..........a lot. I feel sorry for the people that can't afford to live near friends/family but there's an ever increasing amount of them due to the high prices. It's a sh!t deal but you have to take what life gives you and make the best of it.

I have to call you out on this, sorry. This might be an acceptable position if property in Ireland, and Dublin in particular wasn't so totally out of kilter with key economic fundamentals such as rental yield, and salaries. The problem is that it is.

While I don't blame the government for a mass outbreak of stupidity by many Irish people who have been paying far too much for property for the past five years, I do think that they could have done something about the general economic vandalism carried out by the banks. The fact is housing prices wouldn't be what they were if banks hadn't been so lackadaisical about lending criteria. 15 years ago you needed an 8% deposit and could only borrow up to three times your salary. Today you don't necessarily need that deposit, because hey the banks don't care if you can save money or not. And you can borrow up to 6 to 10 times your income if you can prove that you'll probably get a massive payrise within two or three years. In short, banks have been lending recklessly and we are all going to pay the price for it.

It is appalling that our regulatory structures could allow this to happen, and the government are responsible for that.

Cantab.

warrenaldo wrote:

So what your saying is that anybody who was born in dublin and grown up there with their family. If they havent got a well payed job - then tough ****.

And I suppose farmers sons and daughters are entitled to inherit the farm virtually tax free as well I suppose? Oh wait, they're "professional farmers". Have you ever been down to one of those Teagasc courses in Gurteen College, Co. Tipperary? Well I went with a mate of mine who is a poor farmer from Waterford (1000+ acres), and I never saw so many 21-25 year olds driving Range Rovers in all my life.

That's ok then in your book? Government subsidies for people so they can live beside their families? Poor divils.

NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO OWN ANYTHING. Renting is the perfect option if you can't afford to buy. If you can't afford to rent, then f'ing well go down to your local authority who'll put a roof over your head beside your family for nothing.

So don't expect the taxpayer to pay your mortgage for you. We'll help you if you're down-and-out, but otherwise, you're obliged to help yourself. Unless of course, you have some new revolutionary social policy that you'd like to enlighten us with?

warrenaldo wrote:

If its a single parent with a kid who cant afford to buy in dublin. they have to move away from all family and friends in order to get a place?

Have you ever heard of local authority housing? I suppose a bus fare and a bit of inconvenience would be too much to ask of someone who isn't working? And if living beside your family is of such profound importance to your family, why doesn't your beloved family move to a cheaper area nearer to where you find yourself situated?

warrenaldo wrote:

thats the situation that is facing a friend of mine. the council will give her a council house - but if she takes it then she cannot work. she must stay at home. she wants to work - so her only option would be to move away from her life in dublin

Tell her to get two jobs and stop complaining. She has no excuses in a booming economy. If she's uneducated, tell her to go on a FAS course. If neither of that is good enough for her, she'll get €185 a week tax free giving her plenty of time to start work on her next novel. Life's tough. It's time people got a bit of work ethic for once. I know disabled and handicapped people who are well-capable and proud of their work.

Kinetic^

100% agree with you Cantab.

Life is about choice........your choices are limited by your income so you've to make the best decisions you can within your expenditure limits..........which is something Irish people don't seem to have got the hang of with all the debt (apart from mortgages) in this country.

Cantab. wrote:

NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO OWN ANYTHING. Renting is the perfect option if you can't afford to buy. If you can't afford to rent, then f'ing well go down to your local authority who'll put a roof over your head beside your family for nothing.

The above comment sums it up.

BingoWings

I think a certain amount of this "you have the choice to rent" argument is rubbish.

After years of renting in Dublin, and being moved pillar to post because the landlord decided to up the rent by 100% or sell the house/apt, I gave up on the rental maket and bought. Renting in the long term is still not a realisitic option for people in Ireland - especially those with kids. Normal leases are 1 year. When 5 or 10+ year leases become the norm, attitudes might change.

Brooklyn74

BingoWings wrote:

After years of renting in Dublin, and being moved pillar to post because the landlord decided to up the rent by 100% or sell the house/apt, I gave up on the rental maket and bought. Renting in the long term is still not a realisitic option for people in Ireland - especially those with kids. Normal leases are 1 year. When 5 or 10+ year leases become the norm, attitudes might change.

That's a good point. There's also a severe lack of protection for renters in this State. The establishment of the PRTB was a step in the right direction but didn't go nearly far enough. Renters are always going to be more vulnerable to exploitation than owners.

Calina

I'm a bit disappointed by some of the elitism. No body maybe entitled to own anything, but they sure as hell are entitled to aspire to it.

Regarding whinges about tax handouts to help poorer people not earning enough to buy their houses: the issue is this. The affordable housing initiative exploits people who are currently out of the housing affordability net, not aids them. What AHI does is support developers who are having trouble shifting units. If you believe that it is anything else, then you are wholely naive. Those developers wouldn't be selling units to the government if they were being easily sold on the open market.

On the subject of if you can't afford to live in Dublin, then move somewhere else or get two jobs or whatever. Those, I think, are the words of someone who does not expect to have to do either. The truth is no city can function effectively on people who do the elite jobs only. Some people have to sweep the streets and I imagine that you'd baulk at paying them the 80K a year required to buy a tiny apartment. We - collectively - are not well served by creating an economy where a) 16% of the properties are unoccupied b) one bedroomed apartments are out of the reach of anyone earning less than double the average salary forcing a massive amount of commuting and the corresponding environmental cost c) local communities are fragmented by long distance commuting and or a large amount of empty property.

The problem - as I see it - is that in this country, stuff has been coming down to brass tacks. Money, money, money and how you can make more of it, without actually haven't to work too hard for it. Ultimately there is no such thing as a free lunch and in reality we have a lot of fairly useless investorbox property and a lot of people commuting and collectively we are going to wind up paying for it. Unfortunately, because it's not money that it's costing up front, a lot of people in this country are too foolish to realise it.

Well Said Calina

Kinetic^

Calina wrote:

On the subject of if you can't afford to live in Dublin, then move somewhere else or get two jobs or whatever. Those, I think, are the words of someone who does not expect to have to do either.

I had 3 choices - Rent where I'm from, Buy a nice house down the country or buy a small apartment in Dublin. I choose the later, it's not ideal but it's all I could afford and it's not even close to where my family is. There is affordable housing in the complex. (it was bought with my gf just so you know)

Cantab chooses to rent in Rathmines. As he said, he'd have to settle like I did for somewhere that probably wouldn't be his first choice.

It's a fact of life that you if you can't afford anything then you need an alternative so moving out of dublin is an option or to an undesirable area which of course the people don't want to do.

My parents were given a house to rent in Tallaght 20 years ago as they were on the council's list for a long time. They didn't turn their noses up at it like some of the people on here are, like the ungrateful gits that they are.