Hill down to the Dropping Well towards the 9 Arches...

tywy

I dunno if anyone cycles this way in the morning, but it's on my route to college.

On that hill people split into 2 lanes even though there isn't enough room. Cars hug the kerb, so there is NO WAY a cyclist could get past. Even if they had one foot on the kerb scooting along if you know what I mean. So cyclists have 2 options, first option being to cycle on the path which is dangerous going down a hill, the second option is to go down the right "lane". This can be seen as dangerous too but a cyclist doesn't have much choice in this situation.

So anyway, the other day I was cycling down that hill and usually I take option 2 and cycle down the right. So the cars are at a standstill as usual, this Land Rover (superfluous in a city FFS) flicks on her right indicator and just goes, causing me to brake really hard. If I hadn't been paying attention she would have hit me/I would have crashed into her. So I cycled down the hill after her and banged on her window and told her to check her mirrors before pulling out. I think drivers are becoming lazier and lazier for checking their mirrors. Does this kinda crap happen to other people too (not neccesarily on the same hill)? I've been hit once and nearly been hit twice in the past month by cars who aren't checking their left mirror before turning left and then I was almost hit by that idiot going into the right lane.

Does anyone else take that hill in the mornings? If so what do you do?

Sorry about the long post and semi rant btw!

Yup, thats my favourite part of the journey! Feet get a nice break. There's no way you can take the left lane, you absolutely have to stay on the outside of the usually standstill traffic. All you can do is keep aware, and not to take the hill too fast, give yourself a bit of leeway for the ignorance of others.

daymobrew

tywy wrote:

I've been hit once and nearly been hit twice in the past month by cars who aren't checking their left mirror before turning left and then I was almost hit by that idiot going into the right lane.

Your best (legal) response it to report them to the Gardai (TrafficWatch 1890-205-805 is easiest).

snack_ie

Know how you feel...

Sometimes I wish I could just F*** an egg at em...

RainyDay

I commute through that general area, but I avoid the main roads as much as possible, precisely because of the problems outlined by the OP (narrow roads, kerb-hugging drivers, heavy traffic). I go through Columbanus estate and cross the LUAS line just at the north end of Columbanus, beside an ESB sub-station. This leaves me with one short incline over grass to bring me out beside the dropping well.

When I encounter kerb-hugging drivers on Dundrum Road, if at all possible I try and let them know how inconsiderate they are being. I will usually do one of the following;

• frenetic waving/signalling them to pull out (which is probably fairly unintelligible to the average driver)
• slapping the roof or window of the car as I squeeze through
• (when the driver is stopped in traffic) pulling up by the drivers window, knocking and indicating that they should wind down the window, and asking them fairly sarcastically if there is some good reason why they are trying to block the route for cyclists.

I tell myself that I am training in the drivers of south Dublin, 1 by 1, but lord knows how effective this really is.

The bane of my life in that area is the yummy-mummies dropping off their little darlings at 'Alex' in Milltown who seem to think that it is OK to come the wrong way down the very narrow 1-way street at Richmond Ave Sth (which runs from Milltown Road up the hill to Milltown LUAS station. The lady driving the Volvo SUV last Thursday in the attached photo has been reported to the Garda Traffic Watch line. I got a clearer shot of her from the back, which shows her clearly mounting the kerb to get round the corner onto Milltown Rd (and also shows her reg number, conveniently enough)

tywy

brilliant! well done!

I bang on people's windows and shout at them quite a bit too...they don't seem very apologetic though

Cabaal

RainyDay wrote:

The bane of my life in that area is the yummy-mummies dropping off their little darlings at 'Alex' in Milltown who seem to think that it is OK to come the wrong way down the very narrow 1-way street at Richmond Ave Sth (which runs from Milltown Road up the hill to Milltown LUAS station. The lady driving the Volvo SUV last Thursday in the attached photo has been reported to the Garda Traffic Watch line. I got a clearer shot of her from the back, which shows her clearly mounting the kerb to get round the corner onto Milltown Rd (and also shows her reg number, conveniently enough)

ok I take it your going down the one way street and as such you have right of way, why not just stop and refuse to move for them?

if they get pissy threaten to call the Gardai about how they are going down the one way street the wrong way and how they are blocking your way...after all you have the right of way

Traumadoc

I am both a cyclist and a driver - Cyclists are just as likely to be coming down richmond Ave south ( the wrong way) more likely to mount the foot path,they are more likely to overtake on the inside and are more likely to break lights, weave in and out of traffic and generally ignore traffic rules The other day I was crossing Leinster road a Lollypop lady had stopped traffic, but a cyclist ignoring this nearly collided with my 4 year old.

But the minute a car driver does what cyclists do every day you are on to the Gardai.

Civilian_Target

Don't tar us all with the same brush. I always stop at lights, take due care at crossings, regardless. They're often for the protection of those other than cyclists, they're there for a reason and life's not that fast that those 20 seconds are going to make a massive difference!

Traumadoc

Good post - also this aggressive banging on women drivers windows does us no favours.
So what if you loose momentum - an extra 20 seconds so what.

RainyDay

Cabaal wrote:

ok I take it your going down the one way street and as such you have right of way, why not just stop and refuse to move for them?

if they get pissy threaten to call the Gardai about how they are going down the one way street the wrong way and how they are blocking your way...after all you have the right of way

Been there, worn the t-shirt. They just mount the path and get past, as the lady in the Volvo SUV did on Thursday. I did drop my bike in the path of the BMW driver in the photo with this post as he attempted to mount the path on my right side. He then switched to the path on the left side, but at least I managed to get this shot of him clipping a pedestrian on the left side path. The Garda smiled when I presented this picture, the original of which shows the reg quite clearly. (I edited out the reg for posting). I'm just a bit concerned that I haven't heard from the Garda since I gave a statement in November, even though I gave him a reminder phone call over the Xmas holidays. Maybe I'll have the start chasing the Garda again.

tywy wrote:

I bang on people's windows and shout at them quite a bit too...they don't seem very apologetic though

I've had a broad range of responses. Some people seem genuinely apologetic. Some want to tell me their life story 'Oh let me explain to you what happened', some give strange excuses which they seem to think excuse their bad driving 'I didn't notice the kerb because I was texting/doing some paperwork', some are aggressive 'I'll wrap the f***ing bike round your neck' etc etc.

Traumadoc wrote:

I am both a cyclist and a driver - Cyclists are just as likely to be coming down richmond Ave south ( the wrong way) more likely to mount the foot path,they are more likely to overtake on the inside and are more likely to break lights, weave in and out of traffic and generally ignore traffic rules The other day I was crossing Leinster road a Lollypop lady had stopped traffic, but a cyclist ignoring this nearly collided with my 4 year old.

But the minute a car driver does what cyclists do every day you are on to the Gardai.

Indeed, I see more cyclists breaking the 1-way on Richmond Ave South than I see cars. As you know, cyclists don't have registration numbers, so it would be a bit more difficult to report them to the Gardai. More importantly, a cyclist coming down the hill will not put my safety at risk as I turn the corner to go up the hill. There will always be room for both of us. On the other hand, a car coming down the hill just at the time that I turn the corner will put my life at risk. Hence my decision to report them to the Gardai. If you are concerned about the cyclists, feel free to take appropriate action yourself - this would be far more constructive than whinging about the actions I've taken.

For the record, I have reprimanded cyclists who have put my safety at risk by breaking lights etc. I've taken the practical view that there is no point reporting them to the Gardai, given the lack of traceability - but that is purely on practical grounds, and not because of any double standards.

Traumadoc wrote:

Good post - also this aggressive banging on women drivers windows does us no favours.
So what if you loose momentum - an extra 20 seconds so what.

I've no idea what the driver's gender has to do with it, and I've no idea what 'us' you are referring to. I'm not part of any team or movement. I'm just trying to ensure I can cycle safely through Dublin. It is not about 20 seconds momentum. On the occasions when I do slap the passenger side of the car, this is for self-preservation reasons. I want to make damn sure that the driver knows there is somebody/thing in that space.

tywy

did that guy almost hit the pedestrian on the left of the pic when he/she mouted the kerb?!

RainyDay

tywy wrote:

did that guy almost hit the pedestrian on the left of the pic when he/she mouted the kerb?!

Yep - sure did.

tywy

RainyDay wrote:

Yep - sure did.

what a knob!

also this thing about motorists giving out about cyclists breaking lights... I'm a motorist and I don't mind cyclists breaking lights as long as it doesn't interfere with me or cause danger to anyone else. I mean a cyclist going straight through a T junction when the light is red and the traffic is moving slow has little effect on other road users. I'm against cyclists endagering other people but most cyclists make sure they aren't going to hit someone or obstruct someone before breaking the light.

Plus, would you prefer to have that cyclist in a car. I'm telling you if every cyclist who cycles to work/college every morning got a car I'm sure you're drive to work would be a lot longer and a lot more stressful. I think cyclists should be given some leeway as they are helping in reducing the traffic.

cast_iron

tywy wrote:

I bang on people's windows and shout at them quite a bit too...they don't seem very apologetic though

I do the same regularly.

Latest was a taxi driver 2 days ago. He was edging in on the cycle track and squeezing me off the road. With the clatter I gave the side of the car he stopped and tried to give out to me.
When I asked him did he not see me, he said "Sure how was I supposed to see you - you were behind me?". Then, even though he was actually stopped in the cycle track he refused to believe there was one there!

tywy

oh ffs! how are people like that ^^^ allowed to drive!

Cabaal

tywy wrote:

did that guy almost hit the pedestrian on the left of the pic when he/she mouted the kerb?!

Its ok, he/she has a BMW, he/she is allowed to do whatever they want :rolleyes:

jeawan

Cabaal wrote:

Its ok, he/she has a BMW, he/she is allowed to do whatever they want :rolleyes:

you the funny thing it is true , i again am a driver and a cyclist , i used to drive for a living sales and all that and the thing i found was BMW driver just dont give a shi* they think they own the road , but saying that the amount of cyclists ive seen going through red light and in general not paying attention to the road rules is just silly , i stop at red lights as tbh getting hit be a car hurts like hell ,

also to the guy reporting those driver to the garda , they garda wont do squat to the driver, i reported a drink driver a few months back this guy was really bad and was in front of me a good bit down the M50 i never did see a garda car, they don't care

daymobrew

jeawan wrote:

also to the guy reporting those driver to the garda , they garda wont do squat to the driver, i reported a drink driver a few months back this guy was really bad and was in front of me a good bit down the M50 i never did see a garda car, they don't care

I find that the Gardai are inconsistent. Some of my reports to TrafficWatch get no response but I've made written statements for others.
If you are not happy with the response, write to the Assistant Commissioner. I guarantee that you will get a reaction - each of my three letters has resulted in a Superintendent calling to my door to talk about my letter. Two of them were great, explaining how the Gardai worked and encouraging me to continue contacting them; I felt that the third wasn't impressed that I took my issues right to the top.

You did the right thing by reporting the driver. Don't give up.

chicoben

Has anyone ever gone down the steps that are near the dropping well? they come from that area across from it. amazing. yeah that place mentioned by the OP is crazy. went through there at night once.....not good. Though i wouldn't go knocking on car windows or anything like that, esp over here in the 'lock....talk about asking to get shot or something. drivers are blind though. even when you're driving sometimes people can be idiots.

RainyDay

cast_iron wrote:

When I asked him did he not see me, he said "Sure how was I supposed to see you - you were behind me?".

I guess he's never heard of wing mirrors? :mad:

BrianD3

Where in the ROTR does it say that drivers should leave enough space between them and the kerb to let cyclists pass? Most drivers drive too FAR from the kerb and not keeping far enough left is a common fault in driving tests.

If a cyclist "bangs the roof" of a car that is too close to the kerb the cyclist is guilty of aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately this seems to be all too common among cyclist adn sometimes results in criminal damage (eg kicking doors and wing mirror of cars that are perceived to have wronged the cyclist)

Mucco

BrianD3 wrote:

Where in the ROTR does it say that drivers should leave enough space between them and the kerb to let cyclists pass?

Yeah, I was wondering this too. Why not overtake on the outside where motorists are expecting it?

M

randomname2005

BrianD3 wrote:

Where in the ROTR does it say that drivers should leave enough space between them and the kerb to let cyclists pass? Most drivers drive too FAR from the kerb and not keeping far enough left is a common fault in driving tests.

Well here is a link to a good driving practice website:

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/good-driving.html#2

The rules of the road, http://www.irishmotoring.ie/car/rulesoftheroad/rules_of_the_road_driving_the_car.php
say that you should drive left enough to allow approaching cars to pass and following cars to overtake. This does not mean that you should be trying to get your car to have sex with the kerb.
R

BrianD3

randomname2005 wrote:

Well here is a link to a good driving practice website:
http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/good-driving.html#2

Contradiction there - it says you MUST keep left enough to facilitate oncoming and overtaking traffic and ALWAYS leave enough room for cyclists. Often doing both of those at the same time is not possible. I suspect this is the reason why the bit about leaving room for cyclists is not included in the actual rules.
edit: it's not clear from that page whether they are talking about car drivers giving cyclists room while overtaking or while being overtaken on the left by cyclists while stationary in traffic. Two ENTIRELY different scenarios.

This does not mean that you should be trying to get your car to have sex with the kerb.

That's your interpretation. How much room does a cyclist need to safely and comfortably pass a stationary car on the inside. I'd imagine it's at least 2 feet. A car 2 feet from the kerb is hardly "having sex with the kerb" now is it

If a cyclist tries to go up the inside of a kerb hugging car that is stopped in traffic and there is a collision, is it the car drivers fault for being too close to the kerb or the cyclists fault for overtaking when it was not safe/possible to do do. It is the cyclist's fault.

randomname2005

BrianD3 wrote:

Contradiction there - it says you MUST keep left enough to facilitate oncoming and overtaking traffic and ALWAYS leave enough room for cyclists. Often doing both of those at the same time is not possible. I suspect this is the reason why the bit about leaving room for cyclists is not included in the actual rules.
edit: it's not clear from that page whether they are talking about car drivers giving cyclists room while overtaking or while being overtaken on the left by cyclists while stationary in traffic. Two ENTIRELY different scenarios.

That's your interpretation. How much room does a cyclist need to safely and comfortably pass a stationary car on the inside. I'd imagine it's at least 2 feet. A car 2 feet from the kerb is hardly "having sex with the kerb" now is it

If a cyclist tries to go up the inside of a kerb hugging car that is stopped in traffic and there is a collision, is it the car drivers fault for being too close to the kerb or the cyclists fault for overtaking when it was not safe/possible to do do. It is the cyclist's fault.

Id say a little over 1ft, maybe 18 inches to allow for the mirror. Don't forget that you only have to allow for half the width of a bike because the other half can pass over the kerb. If all motorised vehicles stayed 2ft from the kerb that would be brilliant. Im talking about the drivers who drive, literally, 2 inches from the kerb. When the road is wide enough for cyclists to pass down the inside of a bus when stopped in traffic there is no need for cars to be this close to the left hand side of the road.

As for the collision, it depends on what happens. If a cyclist hits the vehicle that is perfectly stationary and does not open the door, then its the cyclists fault. If the driver moves off in a direction towards the kerb as the cyclist is passing, or a passenger opens the door then it is the drivers fault.

R

jeawan

the ROTR is about 5 years out of date if not more so i wouldn't pay massive attention to that , but it does mention cyclists in it and giving them room , again the problem is alot of driver don't look at even use there mirrors the amout of people i've seen just pulling out and not looking is hugh and i'm talking about when i drive not cycle

RainyDay

BrianD3 wrote:

Where in the ROTR does it say that drivers should leave enough space between them and the kerb to let cyclists pass? Most drivers drive too FAR from the kerb and not keeping far enough left is a common fault in driving tests.

Let's get real. 19 out of 20 cars drive sensibly, leaving a reasonable amount of room between the car and the kerb. But 1 out of 20 is too selfish or careless to show consideration for other road users. I make sure as best I can that the 1 out of 20 selfish drivers knows the inconvenience they have caused, and in many cases, they accept their error and apologise.

Note that I'm not referring to narrow roads (e.g. Marlboro Rd in Ranalagh) where there is just no room for a car and a bike. On such roads, I pull over to the opposite side of the road when it is safe to do so. If it is not safe, I just wait. I'm referring to roads where there is ample room for a bike inside a car.

BrianD3 wrote:

If a cyclist "bangs the roof" of a car that is too close to the kerb the cyclist is guilty of aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately this seems to be all too common among cyclist adn sometimes results in criminal damage (eg kicking doors and wing mirror of cars that are perceived to have wronged the cyclist)

For the record, I don't kick doors or wing mirrors. If I could find a way to do so without unbalancing myself, then maybe I'd think about it. But I can't, so I don't.

Mucco wrote:

Yeah, I was wondering this too. Why not overtake on the outside where motorists are expecting it?

This is just silly. Drivers don't generally expect to find cyclists on the outside. In heavy traffic, it is very difficult to get space between cars to pull out to the outside. I really shouldn't have to risk my safety by pulling out to the outside just to make reasonable progress.

Mucco

RainyDay wrote:

This is just silly. Drivers don't generally expect to find cyclists on the outside. In heavy traffic, it is very difficult to get space between cars to pull out to the outside. I really shouldn't have to risk my safety by pulling out to the outside just to make reasonable progress.

Drivers do expect anyone overtaking to be on the outside. Maybe it's silly, but I find it safer to overtake on the outside. There's plenty of space, no doors opening suddenly, none of the drains, detritus that reside in the gutter. I also find that progress is much faster. I occaisionally have to pull in behind a car to allow traffic to come the other way, but on the whole, for me, it's safer and faster than the inside.

RainyDay

Mucco wrote:

Drivers do expect anyone overtaking to be on the outside. Maybe it's silly, but I find it safer to overtake on the outside. There's plenty of space, no doors opening suddenly, none of the drains, detritus that reside in the gutter. I also find that progress is much faster. I occaisionally have to pull in behind a car to allow traffic to come the other way, but on the whole, for me, it's safer and faster than the inside.

I would occasionaly overtake on the outside as a last resort, when some tosser is blocking the inside or when a van/truck/bus means there is no space on the inside. For me, I find it quite dangerous to get out to the outside (keeping an eye on both the car in front and the possibility of other cyclists or motorbikes coming from behind), get past the vehicle, and get back in. It may well be faster, but I don't accept that it is safer.