Bouncers - Right to refuse Admission VS Discrimination

unreggd

How does that make sense?

Yes, they reserve the right to refuse you admission, but on what grounds? If you're clearly completely sober, the only other way they can judge is how you look, which, is dicrimination.

Also, if a bouncer says NOT TONIGHT, and you ask why, they say "If I give you a reason its discrimination"
they think this covers them but its actually means they've just told you they ARE discriminating against you, but wont tell you why.

I think its just an abuse of power, make some muppets feel like hardmen. They even go around boxin people if they stall the queue for a whole 20 seconds.

They need to know they're not the Gardai, and they're should be some sort of law about this kind of thing

Honestly, it doesnt really affect me personally as I tend to get in anywhere I go, regardless bein a regular, but it happens to some of my friends, every time, and its stupid.


Discuss

I agree... but at the same time I wouldn't want to put up with the same amount of sh1t that they have to.

nesf

Yeah, the problem is no matter what way you want to look at it, a publican does have the right to reserve entry. It's a bitch and can be very annoying but afaik there's no way around it bar finding a place where ye won't have trouble getting in to.

grimloch

unreggd wrote:

Yes, they reserve the right to refuse you admission, but on what grounds? If you're clearly completely sober, the only other way they can judge is how you look, which, is dicrimination.

Apart from the way you act, how else are they going to decide?

I'm fairly content now not having all sorts of riff-raff in the nightclubs.

copacetic

it's a tough job and the amount of tossers that they have to deal with makes them cynical. it's all part of life, deal with it.

Dave!

The alternative is to let everyone in and hope they don't cause trouble. They have to be vigilant and unfortunately all they have to go on is your appearance, manners, and general demeanor.

I for one am glad that they don't let everyone into every club.

I've been refused from Fitzsimons in Temple Bar once, but other than that myself nor any of my mates (while I was with them) have never been refused, except for when we were underage of course.

Of course some places AFAIK want to keep a balance of males and females, so they refuse people on that basis but don't give an actual explaination. That's pretty sh*tty, but they're a business at the end of the day.

unreggd

nesf wrote:

Yeah, the problem is no matter what way you want to look at it, a publican does have the right to reserve entry. It's a bitch and can be very annoying but afaik there's no way around it bar finding a place where ye won't have trouble getting in to.

I know, thats why its so confusin!

Obviously they reserve the right of admission as it's their property, but refusal on the basis of looks is discrimination

Shoulda asked about this when I was in the EU Parliament place in strasbourg!

Wertz

Me and bouncers tend to not see eye to eye, I regularly get (well got) refused from places for no other apparent reason than appearance/presentation/attitude....so I simply stopped going to those places.
Makes for a sh*tty social life but meh, I'd prefer to stay home, oblivious, than walk around the town annoyed about getting knocked back. All any of the clubs/pubs do in this town is play sh*te music and overcharge for booze anyhow and all anyone seems to want to do these days is snort bloody coke and prance around like they own the planet.

I've found that the more you get turned away, the more guilty you look next time you try to get in someplace and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The handiest way to get anywhere is to wear a short skirt and a low top, but I'm not that desparate....yet.

leeroybrown

I don't really have a problem with them doing it. A pub/club owner has the right to protect their business and customers. Any time I'm out with someone who gets refused it's typically because they are already pissed.

nesf

unreggd wrote:

Obviously they reserve the right of admission as it's their property, but refusal on the basis of looks is discrimination

Is it? Or more importantly is it unfair discrimination? People seem to forget that discrimination in most of it's forms isn't either illegal or unfair, it's usually quite logical. By even deciding to leave person A in and person B not, you discriminate, even if B was carrying a shotgun in one hand and wearing a "I shot JFK" t-shirt.

unreggd

daveym wrote:

it's a tough job and the amount of tossers that they have to deal with makes them cynical. it's all part of life, deal with it.

But they make the people act like tossers by throwin their weight around, gettin refused for no apparent reason is very frustrating. And if you calmly ask Why, they act as if you pull a gun on them.

leeroybrown

leeroybrown wrote:

I don't really have a problem with them doing it. A pub/club owner has the right to protect their business and customers. Any time I'm out with someone who gets refused it's typically because they are already pissed.

Thats what I've noticed about some of the night clubs around Galway though. There's one or two that are very lax when it comes to a dress code, and I've frequently gone into them wearing a hoodie and a pair of runners, and then theres others which would kick ya out if ya went anywhere near the place looking like that.

InFront

In general I tend to have a bad opinion of them. I was going into a certain nightclub with friends *down under* a well known shopping centre one night after study, and I had my schoolbag with me, and the guy just turned it over and emptied it right there. What a rude thing to do, I think he thought I was smuggling in alcohol or 10kgs of cocaine or something. Anyway, loads of bad experiences, they have a tough job but meh, don't do it if you can't handle it.

Terry

leeroybrown wrote:

I don't really have a problem with them doing it. A pub/club owner has the right to protect their business and customers. Any time I'm out with someone who gets refused it's typically because they are already pissed.

same here, except I'm usually the one who is pissed.
I have learned over the years that arguing with bouncers is a fruitless exercise and that going home after being refused entry makes you feel much better in the morning.
However, I have gone to clubs where the bouncers have refused entry to a friend of mine on the grounds that he was drunk. The guy doesn't drink or do drugs and is always the designated driver. I feel that calling the bouncers **** is justified in those instances.

copacetic

unreggd wrote:

But they make the people act like tossers by throwin their weight around, gettin refused for no apparent reason is very frustrating. And if you calmly ask Why, they act as if you pull a gun on them.

i know what you mean, but they can't make anyone act like a tosser. I've seldom seen anyone get in anywhere by trying to have a discussion. like you say they don't have to give a reason and if you start getting thick with them you are just proving them right for refusing you.

if you find yourself getting refused a lot make friends with a girl waiting too, they seldom refuse you if you look like a couple..

I remember one night I was walking into a club with some friends I used to work with years ago. We had been drinking away and was a tiny bit merry. Anyways, the bouncers stop us and do the usual thing- ask for id, stare you in the eyes and ask, "how are you today?" or "how much have you had to drink tonight?" (the usual stuff). So, eventually he decides I'm too drunk (oddly enough seeing as how I was fairly sober).

He stands back and looks like he's ready for a fight, and two other bouncers are the same way. I actually thank them as I didn't even want to go out as I had work at 8 the next morning. It was the perfect excuse for not going out.

unreggd

Terry wrote:

same here, except I'm usually the one who is pissed.
I have learned over the years that arguing with bouncers is a fruitless exercise and that going home after being refused entry makes you feel much better in the morning.
However, I have gone to clubs where the bouncers have refused entry to a friend of mine on the grounds that he was drunk. The guy doesn't drink or do drugs and is always the designated driver. I feel that calling the bouncers **** is justified in those instances.

I like!
[/borat]


The dont even refuse the right people!

I was in a club with my bro when I was 17 because we know the owner well, and holy bejaysis it scared the crap outta me, even my 24 y/o bro!

Everyone was out of it on coke and every other a-z drug, and foamin at the mouth

Had to leave

Then was in another club and the fights never stopped

It just makes NO apparent sense!

Basically, their judge of character is a loada boiiox

DaveyM wrote:

if you start getting thick with them you are just proving them right for refusing you

Theres a big difference between gettin thick and asking a simple question

DaveyM wrote:

if you find yourself getting refused a lot make friends with a girl waiting too, they seldom refuse you if you look like a couple..

I already said I personally dont get refused too much, I just think its not fair and wasnt sure of the legalities.


Mod Edit:
please don't name clubs where illegal activities may or may not have taken place. See the Sticky at the tp of every forum for the reason behind that.

Terry.

Haven't a Clue

Smartarse bouncers are pricks. I got stopped on new years eve, I'm only 17, and got nowhere with me fake id. He just says: "You'll havew to come back next year."

Fair enough says I. So I go back up to the place at 1 and surely enough get in. Too good for the smartarse gob****e.

copacetic

unreggd wrote:

Theres a big difference between gettin thick and asking a simple question




I already said I personally dont get refused too much, I just think its not fair and wasnt sure of the legalities

sure you are already getting thick with me! ya little bollix! just stand to the side there for a second..

unreggd

daveym wrote:

sure you are already getting thick with me! ya little bollix! just stand to the side there for a second..

But why? Could it be that you're jealous and resentful that I have the social life you could never have Mister Bouncer Man Sir????

Found this as an example of illegal discrimination Here, its the US though

In Public Accommodations...

...when, because of race, color, creed, religion, disability, national origin, sex, or sexual orientation:

Its safe to say 90% of guys get refused because they're guys and not 14 year old slappers with their boobs hangin out of their trainer bra

copacetic

unreggd wrote:

But why? Could it be that you're jealous and resentful that I have the social life you could never have Mister Bouncer Man Sir????

your right, come on in around the back way I'll show you, just down these steel steps here...

unreggd

daveym wrote:

your right, come on in around the back way I'll show you, just down these steel steps here...

There ye go, ye just answered your own question!

Elitism
[Also Referenced as an abuse of power]

Lookism

copacetic

unreggd wrote:

There ye go, ye just answered your own question!

Elitism
[Also Referenced as an abuse of power]

Lookism

here lads, give us a hand here, i've put him down the steps and he is still
fartin on...

Terry

Folks, please do not mention names of clubs with references to any possible illegal activities in said clubs.
Look at the stick up top about the unmentionable for reference.
Thanks.

unreggd

Terry wrote:

Folks, please do not mention names of clubs with references to any possible illegal activities in said clubs.
Look at the stick up top about the unmentionable for reference.
Thanks.

Sorry Man, didnt even notice that!

I'm probably just frustrated because a bouncer refused me from Club Super Fun Happy Mega Whopper Savage Animal Buzz tonight for no apparent reason :P

Ill use codenames in future

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

leeroybrown

Terry wrote:

However, I have gone to clubs where the bouncers have refused entry to a friend of mine on the grounds that he was drunk. The guy doesn't drink or do drugs and is always the designated driver. I feel that calling the bouncers **** is justified in those instances.

I knew a non-drinker who used to get refused occasionally too. The funny thing is that without the aid of anything that anyone else in the queue was using he would still be the most outgoing, energetic and hyper guy there. He was just being his normal self.

Mysteron

DaveMcG wrote:

Of course some places AFAIK want to keep a balance of males and females, so they refuse people on that basis

Apart from being pissed outta yer head, i think thats the second most acceptable reason to be refused entry. There's nothin worse than being in a club when the guys out number the girls by like 3 to 1, it makes for a pretty ****e nite. But ya, in my experience most bouncers are pricks. At the very least you should be told why you're being refused instead of that "Not tonight", crap followed by zero tolerance of any questions.

BrandonBlock

Absolute pricks the lot of them

Terry

unreggd wrote:

Sorry Man, didnt even notice that!

I'm probably just frustrated because a bouncer refused me from Club Super Fun Happy Mega Whopper Savage Animal Buzz tonight for no apparent reason :P

Ill use codenames in future

No problem. This is a dodgy area at the moment and will be for the next few years on this site.

T.Sc wrote:

Would i be right in assuming you're from Cork? Most notioriously assholed bouncers on this Island.
I've been to major Cities and towns all over Ireland and i've yet to come across worse.

I was in Galway recently and one bouncer says to me "How are you for drink" but in a 'I dont think you've had enough' kind of a tone....

It varies from town to town and club to club. Christ, it even varies from night to night in some places.
My local nightclub is a strange place. Some nights I can walk right in. Other nights one of the bouncers will tell me that I'm not getting in because I'm too drunk (even when I'm clearly not).
The thing is, some bouncers are just complete arseholes.

leeroybrown wrote:

I knew a non-drinker who used to get refused occasionally too. The funny thing is that without the aid of anything that anyone else in the queue was using he would still be the most outgoing, energetic and hyper guy there. He was just being his normal self.

Same with my friend.
No red bull or any other energy drink involved.
He would have 1 or 2 rock shandies over a 5 hour period and be as wired as the rest of us.
Again, some bouncers are just ****.

Mysteron wrote:

Apart from being pissed outta yer head, i think thats the second most acceptable reason to be refused entry. There's nothin worse than being in a club when the guys out number the girls by like 3 to 1, it makes for a pretty ****e nite. But ya, in my experience most bouncers are pricks. At the very least you should be told why you're being refused instead of that "Not tonight", crap followed by zero tolerance of any questions.

Mysteron wrote:

I am a dalek

Nothing worse than a sausage fest.

brianthebard

unreggd wrote:

Obviously they reserve the right of admission as it's their property, but refusal on the basis of looks is discrimination

I don't think its legislated against, unless you have a source?

Edit: btw, I've yet to be refused entry on a night out. Perhaps I'm just not going to the high class places...

Terry

Well, you are scum...

unreggd

brianthebard wrote:

I don't think its legislated against, unless you have a source?

Edit: btw, I've yet to be refused entry on a night out. Perhaps I'm just not going to the high class places...

thats what im askin too

what ever happened with that traveller who sued someone for gettin refused in a club

Note, i may have dreamt that

brianthebard

unreggd wrote:

thats what im askin too

what ever happened with that traveller who sued someone for gettin refused in a club

Note, i may have dreamt that

I know you can't/aren't allow to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation, gender, race, membership of the travelling community and nationality, disability and age.(from business studies 5 years ago-fúck is it that long ago??) but I've never heard of discrimination on looks being a legislated on. I therefore surmise, given my complete lack of legal knowledge, that its ok to tell someone they aren't allowed into the club based on looks.

Are they ugly?? (no seriously, that could be why)

@Terry: Takes one to know one:D

seamus

For what it's worth, judging someone based on how they look isn't necessarily illegal discrimination. It's always discrimination, but refusing someone because they aren't dressed properly is neither illegal or morally wrong.

However, there does seem to be a trend recently of blanket saying nothing for fear or having someone beat down the door with their solicitor. Has to be done I guess.

It is illegal to refuse someone on the grounds of race, color, creed, religion, disability, national origin, sex, or sexual orientation. Everything else however, is fair game and rightly so.
When I say illegal, it's a civil matter, not a criminal one. So if you get refused from a club, the Gardai can't help you and will only get involved if it looks like you're going to be causing hassle.

Overheal

Haven't a Clue wrote:

Smartarse bouncers are pricks. I got stopped on new years eve, I'm only 17, and got nowhere with me fake id. He just says: "You'll havew to come back next year."

Fair enough says I. So I go back up to the place at 1 and surely enough get in. Too good for the smartarse gob****e.

Did you consider that you had come back next year? Perhaps he was serious.

2 tips for getting in: 1) Guilty look: think only of your favorite song/sex session/etc.

2) Always follow immediately behind the group of girls that dont wear bras.

Try and remember a few bouncers are only pricks because they have to be: they're usually the ones working the inside but they are sound folk. All you can do is try to befriend them whenever you do get in: maybe get permission to drop their name when you run into trouble

I_and_I

A lot of places have dress codes so I am guessing they are fully within their right to enforce that. But I have to agree that bouncers (majority at least) are not good at their jobs and are usually hot tempered and egotistical, not to mention perverted. They need better screening/training for individuals who wish to become bouncers, instead of this "oh your a big lad. you want the chance to kick the **** out of drunk and sober people every night?". I mean how appealing is that to some guy who has been bullied all his life and has gone to the gym for the past couple of years to put on 100lbs of pure muscle covering 15 years of unreleased rage.

ROCKMAN

Alright, its time one of us brain-dead morons had a say..

I have worked as a doorman on and off for the last ten years.
AND YES THERE ARE SOME DICK HEADS WORKING IN OUR PROFESSION but i have met DICK HEADS working in offices, factories, shops etc..... and to paint everybody with the same brush is discrimination

As a doorman your job is simple, it's to protect the staff, customers and property of the venue you are working (in that order i personally think) and with this thought in mind you must make your decisions .
At the door people behaviour ,body language and yes (unfortunately) appearance is all you have to go on and yes you will get it wrong sometimes but staff and customer safety comes first. It only take one scumbag to ruin a lot of people's night out.

Just a thought you might think of the next time you are discussing what a
great night last night was..........the next day with ur mates

Slutmonkey57b

If people on here think doormen are scumbags, you should see the customers.
Particularly in this country. Drunk, brainless, low-brow, Entitlement Bastard, argumentative rabble the lot of them.

Rb

InFront wrote:

In general I tend to have a bad opinion of them. I was going into a certain nightclub with friends *down under* a well known shopping centre one night after study, and I had my schoolbag with me, and the guy just turned it over and emptied it right there. What a rude thing to do, I think he thought I was smuggling in alcohol or 10kgs of cocaine or something. Anyway, loads of bad experiences, they have a tough job but meh, don't do it if you can't handle it.

It may be rude, but its necessary. I mean, you could have literally anything in the bag and its their job to ensure the security of their customers, if you happened to have a weapon in the bag and got a bit rowdy, then they'd be f*cked as they hadn't done their job properly.

I'm all for bouncers and I'm all for the discrimination, it keeps the scumbags out, even though the bouncers are basing it on their appearance, it does somewhat heighten the level of security. However, some scum will always get in, but at least they're not in the majority.

Futureman

I've never been refused in my life, so I welcome them refusing anyone who looks like a plonker who might ruin the buzz: football jackets, Le Coq Sportif jumpers, burberry caps, knacker taches, football jerseys, luminous shirts, etc, etc...

It's 100% their call, so discrimination doesn't even come into it - FACT! It's like me saying I don't want to hang around with pikeys - you can't sue me for that, as it's 100% my call. Same goes for publicans and THEIR premises'. So get a grip, OP - there's nothing you or anyone can do about it if you want to enter someone else's property: you play by their rules or you don't get in! You don't have any "right" to be allowed onto someone else's property.

Would you let a bunch of knackers into a party in your house? If your answer is no, then that's discrimination by your logic. Get the point yet?

Crucifix

InFront wrote:

In general I tend to have a bad opinion of them. I was going into a certain nightclub with friends *down under* a well known shopping centre one night after study, and I had my schoolbag with me, and the guy just turned it over and emptied it right there. What a rude thing to do, I think he thought I was smuggling in alcohol or 10kgs of cocaine or something. Anyway, loads of bad experiences, they have a tough job but meh, don't do it if you can't handle it.

Did he actually just turn it upside down and let it pour onto the ground?! I think a search is understandable, but I'd be livid if they treated my personal property like that. Plus I treat all my books like they're the original, and sole, copy of some sacred text.

Dragan

unreggd wrote:

How does that make sense?

Yes, they reserve the right to refuse you admission, but on what grounds? If you're clearly completely sober, the only other way they can judge is how you look, which, is dicrimination.

Also, if a bouncer says NOT TONIGHT, and you ask why, they say "If I give you a reason its discrimination"
they think this covers them but its actually means they've just told you they ARE discriminating against you, but wont tell you why.

I think its just an abuse of power, make some muppets feel like hardmen. They even go around boxin people if they stall the queue for a whole 20 seconds.

They need to know they're not the Gardai, and they're should be some sort of law about this kind of thing

Honestly, it doesnt really affect me personally as I tend to get in anywhere I go, regardless bein a regular, but it happens to some of my friends, every time, and its stupid.


Discuss

Personally i suggest you give some examples of times and places where this has been happening. Some crews are crap, some are great. As a doorman i don't agree with everything that happens on doors, which is why i pick and choose where i work very carefully.

I will simply say to stop painting everyone with the same brush. It smacks of ignornace.

Overheal

I agree with this guy ^

You people can't seem to bitch at Bouncers about discrimination without discriminating in the process imo.

I don't like a few of the bouncers that I work with but that doesnt mean theyre not there for my safety: I'd much rather have them acting like pr*ks to the general public than getting put into a potentially dangerous situation because of a lenient door policy.

Sarn

I would agree it can be annoying as hell being refused entry into a club and they do get it wrong on occassion. Hasn't happened to me in a few years though.

They can be very helpful, one night someone knocked my glasses off my head when on the dancefloor, one of the bouncers helped me find them (they were not in a good shape).

Bouncer: Not tonight.

Customer: Is it because I'm a left-handed, heterosexual, christian, irish, male caucasian in my mid-twenties?

Dragan

I will simply say one or two things

1) Imagine any club without security staff. If you look at the places you like drinking in i imagine it has a good vibe, you feel safe in there and can relax and enjoy yourself. Now take away the door staff and see what happens.

The simple fact is that the first job of any doorman is to ensure the safety of staff and customers. Unfortunately a lot of guys forget this fact and do there jobs with attitude, like being a doorman makes them someone.

I hate to break it to those guys but it's just another job folks, so chill the attitude and get back to doing your job.

2) To anyone who is stopped on a door i will simply say to ask for a reason. If i'm stopping you it's because i can give you a valid reason, the same rule should apply to ever club/pub.

3) For non drinkers who get stopped , i have done this once or twice. The way someone was acting in a queue led me to believe they were drunk. I asked them have they been drinking and learn more from talking to them. When i'm happy they are not drunk in they go. It's my perogitive to ask you whatever questions i feel are required to establish if you are drunk or sober..... i hear the "I don't drink" thing from hammered people all the time, as do all doormen, so forgive us for making sure.

My policy is simple....if i stop you it's for a reason, i will explain that to you and you can argue or walk away. Coming back the next time have recitified the issue will see you safely in the door be it that you were drunk, rowdy, dressed in a way that goes against the dress code on that particular door or whatever it may be.

If you want to stand there and cause a scene then you will simply be refused custom in future. I don't have time for arguments and messers.

Caliden

The perks of knowing the bouncers to your favourite club, getting in when you're clearly extremely pissed.

Love it.

Futureman

Caliden wrote:

The perks of knowing the bouncers to your favourite club, getting in when you're clearly extremely pissed.

Love it.

Wow, you're so connected....

nesf

Dragan wrote:

Personally i suggest you give some examples of times and places where this has been happening. Some crews are crap, some are great. As a doorman i don't agree with everything that happens on doors, which is why i pick and choose where i work very carefully.

That's really what it comes down to doesn't it? As in all professions there are a few pricks that give the rest of the guys working in it a bad name.

mloc

Well, I think its fair to say that not all bouncers are the same, and not all bouncers act the same to the same customers.

Every pub or club has its atmosphere, and as well as the safety of the individuals inside, its up to the doormen to maintain the atmosphere. This may mean restricting entry based on dress code, appearance, sobriety, age (back to this one in a sec) and other behavioral and physical attributes.

Nightclubs have died because of lax door policy in hard times pissing off regulars and alienating them from their club of choice. Word of mouth is the single strongest selling point for a club. Reputation is everything.

On the other hand, the lack of proper registration and regulation of doormen in Ireland is a problem. There are those in the minority who through acting unprofessionally serve to tarnish the name of doormen in general. Any time a pawn off excuse is used such as "regulars only" or "members only", where there is clearly non-members in attendance, just makes them look like they are crap at thier job. Also the use of "sorry, over 21s only" is only legal if this is displayed clearly in writing.

At the end of the day, there's not a whole lot you can do. Sure, you might feel aggreived when you're drunk, but the next day at least you know you won't bother going back to the same place again.

Futureman

Futureman wrote:

I've never been refused in my life, so I welcome them refusing anyone who looks like a plonker who might ruin the buzz: football jackets, Le Coq Sportif jumpers, burberry caps, knacker taches, football jerseys, luminous shirts, etc, etc...

Hey.. there's nothing wrong with my taste in clothes

But on a similar note, what about in England where some shopping centres have banned the wearing of hoodies in and around the premise.