Bouncers - Right to refuse Admission VS Discrimination

Froot

I'm from Cork. I dont think Cork has any worse a bouncer situation than any other city I have been to really. I couldnt think of one occasion where I have been refused unfairly. I was either too drunk, didnt have ID or was not dressed appropriately.

I would like to say that I am a decent punter. By that I mean I have never caused trouble in any bar I have ever been to in my lifetime and I have been offered a job as a bouncer in a well known Cork pub on three separate occasions, by three separate members of staff as a result of this. A couple of my friends are bouncers and I have to say any time I have seen them working anyone they refuse deserved to be refused because of their level of intoxication, lack of ID or state of dress.

I have never dressed for a club, meaning I have never put on a shirt, proper shoes instead of runners etc with the aim of going to a club. Any time I do go out I'm normally wearing standard casual clothes (baggy pants eg Road or Mecca etc). When I get refused its because im either after a few drinks (though this can be as little as two drinks which for me is not that much to most bouncers).

I would say in the last 4 or 5 years (I'm 21) I have been refused maybe 5 times. The one thing I never do is get visibly or verbally pissed off with bouncers opon refusal. In some cases this works to my advantage. Such as one occasion I approached the door of a club and was refused for not having ID, not to mention I wasnt anywhere near their standard dress code but I just remained calm and said ok. At this point the 2nd bouncer recognised me from our local Centra (rough neighbourhood ) and I was allowed in.

I have to admit that being refused is bad enough in some situations but being refused and being given a non straightforward answer is, to me, infuriating. Example being I was heading up to the Old Oak for a friends birthday and I was told "you wont get in with the trailers". I asked the bouncer to repeat himself 3 times after he said this before he eventually said that my pants were too baggy and I was nowhere near their dress code. Of course I wasnt too pushed either way but I was however left in amazement as I never new the Old Oak had a dress code. By the way for anyone refused from any establishment on Oliver Plunkett street the traffic lights outside the GPO are great fun when drunk. Pressing the button on both sides at the same time makes the lights automatically go red for oncoming traffic. Great for pissing off taxi drivers and the like, not that I ever would. Many a fun night was rounded up by a quick trip to the lights to wreak havoc on the unsuspecting drivers of Cork city centre

Bouncers reserve the right of admission. The law never comes into it in my head. What that means to me is, this is a private establishment. We can let in who we want. I have never had any major grievance with bouncers enforcing this so I personally do not feel it is unfair. Obviously if you headed to some of the bigger clubs around Ireland, maybe Trinity Rooms or Spirit or whatever you probably would get bouncers refusing people because they wore glasses or were ginger or for whatever reason they wanted really but in my case it has always been somewhat justified.

In no way do I want to hijack this thread but perhaps people should be complaining about the ridiculous R.O.A.R. rule that taxi drivers enforce instead of looking at bouncers. I was once told that the reason taxi drivers dont pick me up (at the time I hadn't touched a drop of alcohol in nearly two years) was because I looked like I would beat the crap out of them or rob them...or both. Its a funny old world.

Froot.

InFront

I actually think the r.o.a.r. policy is a smart one amongst taxi drivers. Working alone at night like that, it's in their best interests to protect themselves first.

Froot

InFront wrote:

I actually think the r.o.a.r. policy is a smart one amongst taxi drivers. Working alone at night like that, it's in their best interests to protect themselves first.

Well I cant disagree. It just annoyed me at the time because they drove past (slowly) with the light on while messing with their phone. They made eye contact with me, looked at their phone and kept going. I understand they have to differentiate between good and bad people but I found it a little ridiculous. And subsequent taxi drivers have agreed with me, for what thats worth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

pred racer wrote:

......

Yeah, all that stuff you said earlier is a load of crap.

Firstly stfu about rugby, noone can see you from where you are so why bother mentioning propping or on pitch fights or whatever else. Bloody internet warriors...

Secondly how the hell si the bouncer supposed to know your and your friends exclusively dont drink until you hit a club. The bouncer sees you and makes a call based on your demeanour, dress code and age verification. You made a pretty poor case explaining your side of the story on all counts.

I fail to see how the bouncer is a tosser if you cant even bother to make a meaningful defensive statement on a website (i mean you had enough ****e about rugby, why not say your an Amish pioneer) never mind a decent effort and your physical dress or behaviour outside a club.

You can be the most idiotic person in the world around the corner from a club/pub but if your of age, dressed appropriately and appear to be sober and acting in some sane way outside a club then there are no real grounds for refusal.

Personally I would say in your case, based on the evidence YOU provided, that your refusal is a combination of bad luck and your own stupidity.

Well done to those bouncers for doing they job correctly.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have to say there are some occasions where bouncers just cant help the goings on ina pub. I mean on one occasion I was talking to this girl and this seemingly well dressed standard guy just passed me and literally full force elbowed me in the back. There was no way it was anything else, even the bouncer who saw agreed. So there is a few grey areas where bouncers can be forgiven for not being able to judge someone.

Futureman

Froot - what's all this +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ sh*t about?

Are you trying to add something up?

faceman

orlyice wrote:

i will agree that bouncers have a very tough job

this makes me laugh, why do people think bouncers have a tough job? Its a low skilled job and most establishments have more than 1 bouncer so its not like the majority work alone. Is it because of the grief they get? Sure you'd get that working in a consumer call centre or telesales! The threat of violence? not unless they work alone!

orlyice

faceman wrote:

Is it because of the grief they get? Sure you'd get that working in a consumer call centre or telesales! The threat of violence? not unless they work alone!

have you worked in a call centre?? i have worked for one of the mobile phone networks in their call centre and yes i have had people on the phone who have hurled abuse at me and called every name under the sun, but big difference is that there is only one person on the line, bouncers can have a huge gang of people insulting them. and you can hit the mute button and wait for them to calm down, bouncers cant do that! heck, you can hang up on people in a call centre, gets rid of them straight away. how can bouncers do that.

as for the violence.... if someone goes to hit a bouncer... his righthand man could be distracted with someone else..... i've seen a bouncer with blood all over his face as a result of getting hit on the head with a bottle. he wasnt on his own, in fact there was 2 more bouncers there but they were busy with other idiots. also gang of 10 scumbags v's 2 bouncers.....

pyramuid man

I agree with you orlyice. I have known a bouncer whos car was burnt out and all the windows in his house broken and all for refusing someone. I have worked in several call centers and I have never gotten the kind of abuse that bouncers do.

faceman

orlyice wrote:

have you worked in a call centre?? i have worked for one of the mobile phone networks in their call centre and yes i have had people on the phone who have hurled abuse at me and called every name under the sun, but big difference is that there is only one person on the line, bouncers can have a huge gang of people insulting them. and you can hit the mute button and wait for them to calm down, bouncers cant do that! heck, you can hang up on people in a call centre, gets rid of them straight away. how can bouncers do that.

as for the violence.... if someone goes to hit a bouncer... his righthand man could be distracted with someone else..... i've seen a bouncer with blood all over his face as a result of getting hit on the head with a bottle. he wasnt on his own, in fact there was 2 more bouncers there but they were busy with other idiots. also gang of 10 scumbags v's 2 bouncers.....

the odd assault doesnt make it a tough job, sure a road sweeper is at just as much risk.

copacetic

faceman wrote:

the odd assault doesnt make it a tough job, sure a road sweeper is at just as much risk.

really? the average roadsweeper gets attacked every day around your way?

faceman

daveym wrote:

really? the average roadsweeper gets attacked every day around your way?

where is your source to say bouncers get attacked everyday?

connundrum

faceman wrote:

the odd assault doesnt make it a tough job, sure a road sweeper is at just as much risk.

LOL! The odd assault indeed. Surely no assault would be better.

The job its self isn't hard, the fact that I've to do a 4-6 hour shift having already worked a full day makes it a bit harder. Having to deal with drunk arseholes can add to the difficulty.

Then again, I have worked telesales and I'd rather be a doorman any day.

faceman

connundrum wrote:

Then again, I have worked telesales and I'd rather be a doorman any day.

exactly its not like you dont have a choice.

Froot

Futureman wrote:

Froot - what's all this +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ sh*t about?

Are you trying to add something up?

I use it to separate parts of my post...I have always done that. Nice contribution to the thread by the way

Dragan

faceman wrote:

the odd assault doesnt make it a tough job, sure a road sweeper is at just as much risk.

I can happily say that the worst I have ever seen of people is while working as a doorman. And I have had many, many jobs.

The job is not particularly tough if you are well suited to it. Personally I am an easy going and relaxed guy and I treat the door the same way as I treat a night out. I am there to have fun, have a chat, meet people and ensure everyone is safe. It's kind of a joke among my friends that when I am out there all feel safer as they have there own private security with them. One of my friends who always ends up staying a little more sober than the group recently told me that she only ever gets drunk when I am out because she "just feels safer having me there."

Sure, there is a risk of assault on the job when you are a doorman, but there is also a risk of assault as a customer. I am there to ensure that neither of us has to deal with that eventuality.

But you'd be amazed at the levels that some people will stoop to to try and make you assault them, or to try and rile you up and make you do something silly. I have seen the nicest of people turn stupid and ignorant and arrogant simple because they feel they have a degree of anonimity. Just like on this board really. Here's a list of some of the most stupid things people have said to me simply because they were too drunk to be allowed to enter the premises.

1) I will kill you.
2) I'll be back with a gun ( this became very popular after a well known and absolute gentleman of a doorman was shot in Limerick )
3) I'll find your family and rape your kids
4) I'll find where you live and burn you family alive.

In that regard it's tough job, as you have some nutless scumbag ( and I don't care if your from Blackrock or Ballymun, the second you start any of the above you’re a scumbag, regardless of what your Daddy does for a living ) who only feels brave enough to say what he will say because you’re a doorman and he thinks you ca't touch him for it. But the simple fact is that making a threat ( that’s right, just making one ) is a Section 5 ( or Section 6, I can't remember which off the top of my head ) assault and an arrestible offence. So if you find yourself talking big infront of witnesses, and then suddenly trying to explain your actions to the police don't be surprised.

Personally I enjoy the job. I like the social aspect of it and I take my responsibilites to keep people safe very seriously. As a doorman you’re an agent of the license holder who is there to ensure the safety of his staff and customers. You’re the first person people turn to when something goes wrong or in an emergency. Quite frankly if you hate the job and think it's tough then don't do it because your not suited to it.

For people who hate doormen I would simply say just go in and have a good night, if your stopped then ask for a reason but remember that we are not obliged to provide you with one…. However a good doorman will be able to give you one, a bad bouncer won't…..and you want to be going to clubs and pubs with good doormen, not bad bouncers.

Finally I will simply say that if you are asked to leave because you are too drunk then just do so. It makes everyone life a little bit easier, and once you get asked to leave your going. It can be you outside for the remainder of the night or it can be you never getting in again. Sounds simple enough, right?

Terry

Dragan wrote:

Finally I will simply say that if you are asked to leave because you are too drunk then just do so. It makes everyone life a little bit easier, and once you get asked to leave your going. It can be you outside for the remainder of the night or it can be you never getting in again. Sounds simple enough, right?

Agree 100% with that.
I was asked to leave the local nightclub once because I was too drunk.
I was actually more tired than drunk, but that's neirther here nor there.
I just followed the bouncers out, asked them to get my coat and headed home.
They were really surprised at how co-operative I was and told me they expected me to put up an arguement.
I told them that I couldn't be bothered and they said that I was welcome back any time.
Haven't been back since, but that's more to do with not actually wanting to go there than anything else.

stovelid

Bouncers will always be with us.

I'm happier to have them there than not have them there.

Not saying this of everyone here but at the end of the long night, we can all look worse than we think we do. I know I certainly have.

They could be refusing you entry because they don't like your shirt, just want to look as if they are actively monitoring the door or even simple power tripping.

Its not worth even showing annoyance or thinking about it too deeply unless they actually hit you or something TBH. Surely no club or pub is worth standing around begging and arguing to get in anyway.

stovelid

Er, Bouncer.Shot.Dead.Few.Years.Ago.Limerick?

Anyway surely any job that involves dealing with thousands of drunk people when sober is tougher than dealing with the public normally.

faceman wrote:

this makes me laugh, why do people think bouncers have a tough job? Its a low skilled job and most establishments have more than 1 bouncer so its not like the majority work alone. Is it because of the grief they get? Sure you'd get that working in a consumer call centre or telesales! The threat of violence? not unless they work alone!

Dragan

stovelid wrote:

Anyway surely any job that involves dealing with thousands of drunk people when sober is tougher than dealing with the public normally.

It's different strokes for different folks I suppose. Like many people here I spent my time working in a call center and I find that on the phone people can be absolutely ignorant! Whenever I deal with just plain ignorance on the door I am normally willing to give the person the benefit of the doubt and assume it is the drink talking, but when you have perfectly sober people reducing call center staff to tears with what could only be considered bullying then you tend to just feel they are ****.

The simple fact is that certain people are suited to different jobs. For me it's creating very complicated propensity and statistical models by day, door work by night. Sure, the two don't really go hand in hand in most peoples minds but I can't say as I really care.

McAlban

In my experience Doormen's Personality and way of Dealing with customers is as Varied as the Customers themselves.

I once had a Pint Glass dropped beside me in a Club from a balcony, I used my foot to push the Glass in under the counter, turned around to look for a Lounge girl and got flattened by a bouncer who pushed me against the wall. Nearly dropped me on the broken glass and then dragged me out to the front door, Where I calmly explained what happened to the Head Door Man who was an old Friend of mine (and now a Garda) who gave yer man a Bollicking and let me back in. The doorman who dragged me out was never seen again. Although I did see someone get thrown down the steps by door staff, at the same club another night.

The Thing to remember is...Doormen have a number of things to look for, someone who's argumentative, will never get in..

Most Clubs and even some large pubs have websites, you can look up their Terms and conditions.. Dress Code etc.

Smart Casual is the Rule in almost any club. This Generally means Leather Shoes, Jeans, a Shirt or Polo Shirt or a T-Shirt (preferrably clean, I find a shirt with a collar will get you in anywhere.) NO Sportswear Branded Items.

"Clubs" are usually just that, a Club, with membership, (not sure if this is part of the Licensing) normally each Member can bring a guest. 2 of the Clubs where I live gave me free Membership (although 1 charges €100) I remember another Club where me and a mate where told it was Members only. When he asked he was told he could write to the establishment. he did and got membership for free. and brought me as his guest the next time. No Problem. Sounds Like too much Hassle? Having Membership takes one of their crap excuses off them.

There are a few unwritten rules about club entry that apply everywhere...

No More than 2 or 3 Blokes together. This is a couple of mates out for a beer. More than this and if things kick off, the 4 or 5 Doormen can have trouble controlling any situation. 5 or 6 Blokes with 2 or 3 Women don't usually have hassle, it looks like 2-3 Couples.

Talk normally to your mates/Girlfriend/Girl you're trying to impress in the queue! Not Stare at the Doormen looking worried. NEVER go right up to the doorman, especially if the guy in front of you is having a "Why Not tonight" discussion, stay a step or 2 back, Look bored and like you don't want to get involved. The other doorman (if there are 2) will wave you on, or the argumenative one will not notice you or associate you with the person in front, and call you to to the door.

If Stopped and Asked something (ID, where are you coming from etc) Answer Smartly and Clearly, look straight at the doorman, and smile. If you are sober enough and friendly enough they will let you in because they are sussing your attitude out, Don't get Defensive or aggressive. All you will get is "Not tonight". Too Many people get thick when first refused. and yes there are some doormen out there who won't give you a reason.

And Always Say Thanks. They Remember manners!

I have only ever been refused admission because of...Membership, Too Many Lads together, or The Club is Full.

Overheal

This thread should be closed to help preserve some of these great posts (^)

In closing, the larger majority of the population is thankful for the role of Security. Hats off to you; because they aren't allowed in the club.

faceman

Great post by Dragan.

Trademark

Dragan wrote: »

Finally I will simply say that if you are asked to leave because you are too drunk then just do so. It makes everyone life a little bit easier, and once you get asked to leave your going. It can be you outside for the remainder of the night or it can be you never getting in again. Sounds simple enough, right?

Grammar police here, got any ID there bud??

Sorry, regulars only.

Pdfile

i like being refused from pubs... Because if a bouncer refuses me, what dogs and dopes has he let in ??

does he not understand that ill be spending more then the rest, causing no trouble ( then the skint bhoys lookin for a straightener off everyone ) and well, the girls are only their for free drinks; no shiftin :rolleyes:

though i know this rule of thumb wont work for most, it works perfectly fine for me.

Elohim

Trademark wrote: »

Grammar police here, got any ID there bud??

Sorry, regulars only.

I'm pretty sure the real grammar police are usually quicker to respond. It looks like you're 5 years late.

Trademark

Hey hey hey, grammar hasn't changed much, it appears d'oh is officially a part of the dictionary now! Never even noticed it was a very old thread but goes to show - don't count your chickens before BBC decide is Rory Irish or British!!.....
"Oh it's a hard shot for Rory, stuck buried behind 8 trees, the little Irishman will need a miracle shot........oh Rory knocked it clean onto the green and is doing the UK proud today! Putt from 47 yards, can the Irishman do it?? Nooo drops short, inches away.....maybe Rory from Great Britain can get it next time...

44leto

They don't have to give a reason. I f you ask why are you refusing me all they have to say is it is not club/pub policy to give a reason, now clear the door please and they are covered, you have no recourse.

OP if you got refused you usually know why, move on, try again some other night or never go back to that place again. Pubs/clubs want your custom, especially now, but they do have a duty of care to their customers and they don't want a place getting a reputation for trouble.

I always laugh at this law. It is illegal for a barman to serve someone while they are drunk, that would rule out more then 50% of all alcohol sales in bars in Dublin.

TomLamp

To anyone who thinks bouncers are tossers, stand outside a nightclub completely sober for an entire night and see what they have to deal with every week. Its not a nice job.

Oh and by the way, usually they're taking orders from management on what type of person to let in.

dr.bollocko

Trademark wrote: »

Grammar police here, got any ID there bud??

Sorry, regulars only.

In future please do not bump old threads. Also no to the grammar police stuff.