Greatest Irish Fighter

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote:

Kelly was 5'3 1/2 - 5'4 , But yes you are correct that he didn't hit anywhere near hard enough to be a real threat .

Bigears im 5,7" and kelly looked to be more or less the same height as me whenever i stood beside him-walshb would know him also and he's similar enough height also!!

walshb

Big ears, he is at least 5 feet 6 as I have stood beside him several times and actually fought him a number of years back. I was at most an inch taller and I am 5 feet 7 in my bare feet. Anyway like you and I said his power is what is his problem in the pro's. He hadn't the punch or anywhere near the punch needed to compete in the top flight

cowzerp

walshb wrote:

I was at most an inch taller and I am 5 feet 7 in my bare feet.

O'k Bren im only 5,6" with my runners off-damn ya dont get away with anything around here!!

Big Ears

walshb wrote:

Big ears, he is at least 5 feet 6 as I have stood beside him several times and actually fought him a number of years back. I was at most an inch taller and I am 5 feet 7 in my bare feet. Anyway like you and I said his power is what is his problem in the pro's. He hadn't the punch or anywhere near the punch needed to compete in the top flight

Fair enough I was basing my opinion on Ian Napa supposedly being 5'1 and Maludrottu supposedly being 5'6 . I'm fairly sure Sky had him under 5'6 on their tale of the tape in some of his fights but can't remember what height they gave . Anyway since you have stood beside him you should be right(or are smaller than you'd like to admit ) .

sligobhoy67

Big Ears wrote:

Fair enough I was basing my opinion on Ian Napa supposedly being 5'1 and Maludrottu supposedly being 5'6 . I'm fairly sure Sky had him under 5'6 on their tale of the tape in some of his fights but can't remember what height they gave . Anyway since you have stood beside him you should be right(or are smaller than you'd like to admit ) .

I wrote this page about about Damaen on wiki if you are interested in him please feel free to add to it.

p.s. to settle the discussion Kelly is 5'5'' (in his bare feet!) and yes his downfall was done to a lack of power which he didnt need at amatuer level - not to mention a crazy/ballsy decision to go to Colombia, being raped in the Answersontown Arena and a lack of decent opposition in Europe at his prime

el tel

In my opinion Damaen Kelly is technically one of, if not the, greatest Irish boxers I've ever seen. Anyone wanting to know how to box in a technically beautiful and perfect way need only watch a video of DK.

walshb

Yes Kelly is definitely one of Ireland's best ever amateurs. He did so well in big tournaments but at the very top he was kept at bay by some of the weights greatest in Romero from Cuba and Dzumadilov. I'll never forget watching DK in Atlanta 96 against Dzumadilov. Kelly tried so hard but Dzumadilov was just always a step ahead and barely broke sweat. It was strange to see Kelly, a fantastic fighter made look so ordinary. Had DK had a damaging punch he could have been so much better.

celtictiger

Seems no one remembers Sean Mannion....Fought Mike McCallum in 1984 for the Light Middle Title.....I would rank his abilities higher than Steve Collins (though thats not saying much) - Collins fought McCallum 6 years after Mannion fought him and even tho McCallum was an old fighter at the time he still managed to give Collins a pasting. He tried and failed for another title against an rather ordinary Reggie Jackson and guess what? He lost. He beat Eubanks who was clearly way passed his prime...ditto for Nigel Benn....his title defenses were a freaking joke. Neville Brown, Frederic Seillier, Craig Cummings???? Come on - it's laughable. He would have got his clock cleaned by any of the other champions out there...most notable Roy Jones Jr. Of all the decent fighters he fought McCallum, Kalambay and Johnson he lost. The only guys he could beat were over the hill and once he got the title he fought nobodies.

Kevin McBride OMG!!!

Big Ears

You make some valid points , Jones would have dealt with Collins easily and some of Collins defenses were quite poor . Collins was a novice against McCallum , McCallum may have been old(34) but he still had quite a bit left in him and was still a very good fighter .

Prime Reggie Johnson wasn't an ordinary fighter by any means , he took Toney to a very close decision and floored him along the way .

Then you skip from his mixed decision loss to Johnson straight to Eubank leaving out two key events , one that might even help your argument about how Collins wasn't great . He lost to Sumbu Kalambay for the European title and Kalambay was quite old at the time . With that said Kalambay was a brilliant fighter , even at that age .

Another key point you fail to mention is Collins winning the WBO Middleweight title(quite a lot of people forget Collins is a two weight title holder) beating Chris Pyatt . Pyatt had beaten Kalambay and was a very good fighter(although probably had been a better Light-Middleweight) , Collins hockeyed him .

Many say Eubank was passed his best(which he was) but this is often exaggerated quite a lot . Eubank was still only 29 and after his second lost to Collins he managed to give a good account of himself against Calzaghe(despite having to lose a lot of weight quickly) and even after that he came very close to beating WBO Cruiserweight champ Carl Thompson on 2 occasions . Eubank lost a close decision in the first fight after flooring Thompson and in the second he was ahead on the cards when stopped with a closed eye .

As for Benn , he hadn;t quite been the same since McClellan but he had only lost his title(WBC) a few months previously on a Split decision to Thulani Malinga , Malinga wasn't that great a fighter but he did manage to regain the title against the talented Robin Reid having lost it to the Italian Nardiello .
Anyway in the first fight Benn hurt is ankle just when Collins was getting to him and he couldn't continue . In the second fight Collins beat him easy .

megadodge

Seems no one remembers Sean Mannion....Fought Mike McCallum in 1984 for the Light Middle Title.....I would rank his abilities higher than Steve Collins (though thats not saying much) - Collins fought McCallum 6 years after Mannion fought him and even tho McCallum was an old fighter at the time he still managed to give Collins a pasting.

Seems to me somebody really dislikes Steve Collins and has let that ruin his judgement.

Ranking Sean Mannion's abilities above Collins is shocking.
Mannion's sole achievement is that he went the distance with Mike McCallum, losing every single round in the process (now that's what I call a real pasting). He proved beyond doubt that he had an excellent chin and that's it!
Name any fighter of substance he actually beat. Maybe In Chul Baek and that's it.

When McCallum fought Mike Watson (the same fella who beat a prime Benn and lost a disputed decision to a prime Eubank, then was pasting the same Eubank in the rematch until he got caught by that uppercut) and had a tough fight before finishing him in the 11th he was asked by an English reporter "surely that was your toughest fight Mike ?". His reply - "No, Steve Collins was my toughest fight". And that was when Collins had had only 16 fights !

He beat Eubanks who was clearly way passed his prime...ditto for Nigel Benn..

Eubank's last fight before Collins (UD over the dangerous Henry Wharton) was regarded as possibly the best 'boxing' performance of his career. And he was two years YOUNGER that Collins.

Benn was definitely past his best but was still favoured by many to win but in my opinion was made for Collins and would have lost at any stage in their careers. He was only six months older than Collins.

The only point I agree with you on is that Roy Jones would have beaten him, but there's no disgrace in that as I personally believe P4P Jones could have beaten anyone in history.

walshb

Big Ears wrote:

You make some valid points , Jones would have dealt with Collins easily and some of Collins defenses were quite poor . Collins was a novice against McCallum , McCallum may have been old(34) but he still had quite a bit left in him and was still a very good fighter .

Prime Reggie Johnson wasn't an ordinary fighter by any means , he took Toney to a very close decision and floored him along the way .

Then you skip from his mixed decision loss to Johnson straight to Eubank leaving out two key events , one that might even help your argument about how Collins wasn't great . He lost to Sumbu Kalambay for the European title and Kalambay was quite old at the time . With that said Kalambay was a brilliant fighter , even at that age .

Another key point you fail to mention is Collins winning the WBO Middleweight title(quite a lot of people forget Collins is a two weight title holder) beating Chris Pyatt . Pyatt had beaten Kalambay and was a very good fighter(although probably had been a better Light-Middleweight) , Collins hockeyed him .

Many say Eubank was passed his best(which he was) but this is often exaggerated quite a lot . Eubank was still only 29 and after his second lost to Collins he managed to give a good account of himself against Calzaghe(despite having to lose a lot of weight quickly) and even after that he came very close to beating WBO Cruiserweight champ Carl Thompson on 2 occasions . Eubank lost a close decision in the first fight after flooring Thompson and in the second he was ahead on the cards when stopped with a closed eye .

As for Benn , he hadn;t quite been the same since McClellan but he had only lost his title(WBC) a few months previously on a Split decision to Thulani Malinga , Malinga wasn't that great a fighter but he did manage to regain the title against the talented Robin Reid having lost it to the Italian Nardiello .
Anyway in the first fight Benn hurt is ankle just when Collins was getting to him and he couldn't continue . In the second fight Collins beat him easy .

Even though Eubank may not have been at his peak, Collins was always going to be a tough fight for Chris and probably would have beat him at any time because of Steve's damn awkward style and the fact that Eubank was at times one dimensional. Collins granite chin would always see him take Benn's and Eubanks best. So it's a matter of who is the hardest worker and Collins was. Benn and Chris were not Michael Nunn or Jones type fighters who could use speed, counters and movement to beat all styles or pressure styles.

sligobhoy67

celtictiger wrote:

Seems no one remembers Sean Mannion....Fought Mike McCallum in 1984 for the Light Middle Title.....I would rank his abilities higher than Steve Collins (though thats not saying much) - Collins fought McCallum 6 years after Mannion fought him and even tho McCallum was an old fighter at the time he still managed to give Collins a pasting. He tried and failed for another title against an rather ordinary Reggie Jackson and guess what? He lost. He beat Eubanks who was clearly way passed his prime...ditto for Nigel Benn....his title defenses were a freaking joke. Neville Brown, Frederic Seillier, Craig Cummings???? Come on - it's laughable. He would have got his clock cleaned by any of the other champions out there...most notable Roy Jones Jr. Of all the decent fighters he fought McCallum, Kalambay and Johnson he lost. The only guys he could beat were over the hill and once he got the title he fought nobodies.

Kevin McBride OMG!!!

CT, to be honest I dont know a thing about Sean. Where was he from - I've checked his Boxrec page and it looks like he should have stopped fighting in 1986 but went on until 1993 - but hey I'm not the one whos gonna have to pay his bills!

Do you know where I can find more info on him?

henryb

sligobhoy67 wrote:

CT, to be honest I dont know a thing about Sean. Where was he from - I've checked his Boxrec page and it looks like he should have stopped fighting in 1986 but went on until 1993 - but hey I'm not the one whos gonna have to pay his bills!

Do you know where I can find more info on him?

Mannions a galway man originally, from the heart of the
gaeltacht in carraroe in connemara.
He emmigrated to the states i think in the late 70's
early eighties and learned his professional boxing skills the
hard way in America. He was as tough as they came and took
mcallum the full 15 rounds when they fought.
OK, he took a hiding, but hey, it was mike mcallum after all!!!
Liked a drink as well

sligobhoy67

henryb wrote:

Mannions a galway man originally, from the heart of the
gaeltacht in carraroe in connemara.
He emmigrated to the states i think in the late 70's
early eighties and learned his professional boxing skills the
hard way in America. He was as tough as they came and took
mcallum the full 15 rounds when they fought.
OK, he took a hiding, but hey, it was mike mcallum after all!!!
Liked a drink as well

did he havea nickname? His boxrec record says he was based in Boston

celtictiger

megadodge wrote:

Seems to me somebody really dislikes Steve Collins and has let that ruin his judgement.

Ranking Sean Mannion's abilities above Collins is shocking.
Mannion's sole achievement is that he went the distance with Mike McCallum, losing every single round in the process (now that's what I call a real pasting). He proved beyond doubt that he had an excellent chin and that's it!
Name any fighter of substance he actually beat. Maybe In Chul Baek and that's it.

When McCallum fought Mike Watson (the same fella who beat a prime Benn and lost a disputed decision to a prime Eubank, then was pasting the same Eubank in the rematch until he got caught by that uppercut) and had a tough fight before finishing him in the 11th he was asked by an English reporter "surely that was your toughest fight Mike ?". His reply - "No, Steve Collins was my toughest fight". And that was when Collins had had only 16 fights !



Eubank's last fight before Collins (UD over the dangerous Henry Wharton) was regarded as possibly the best 'boxing' performance of his career. And he was two years YOUNGER that Collins.

Benn was definitely past his best but was still favoured by many to win but in my opinion was made for Collins and would have lost at any stage in their careers. He was only six months older than Collins.

The only point I agree with you on is that Roy Jones would have beaten him, but there's no disgrace in that as I personally believe P4P Jones could have beaten anyone in history.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that I dislike him....he used to annoy me with the crap he used to talk. I sparred with both of them many moons ago and tho Sean Mannion lacked any serious power he made up for it with some seriously fine boxing skills...he was pretty hard to hit (he had this unorthodox style of leaning back instead of slipping punches) and if you did manage to hit him you were'nt gonna hurt him - he had one of the best chins in the business. I nailed him as hard as I have ever hit anyone on one occassion and I think it took more out of me than it did him. Steve Collins was all over the place - he a had a solid punch but by no means explosive. He was fairly easy to hit - any boxer would have a field day. He was a proud fighter which led to his tenacity but any technical boxer with good legs would have a field day with him. Pound for pound I give the edge to Mannion.

Henryb - your correct he's from Galway but he's from Ros Muc not Carraroe. He won the Junior Irish Light Welter title in 1976 and took off to the states shortly afterwards. He did like a drink which was his downfall in the end - he returned back home a couple of years ago and now works around Galway.


megadodge he beat a number of damn fine fighters from the early eighties - maybe they were before your time....Jimmy Corkum was supposed to be the next biggest thing in boxing until he met up with Mannion...Nino Gonzalez was no joke (took Duran the full 10 rounds), Rocky Fratto was a big name at the time too...and that was some scrap. He fought for two rounds with a collapsed lung against Danny Chapman. He was beating Gary Guiden until a but opened up a cut and the fight was stopped....He lost a hometown decision to Roger Leondard who was Sugar Rays brother...lots of ability there In Cul Baek was 26-0(26 ko's) when he fought Mannion who boxed rings around him. I watched him spar with Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, Mathhem Hilton and many other names and he held his own beautifully - made me proud to be Irish I'll tell you. After the title fight he was taken on by Angelo Dundee who called him the "best kept secret in boxing" at the time. Lack of motivation was a big factor for him and he started to party a bit too much and after losing to Errol Christie and he went quickly downhill.....he quit drinking a few years ago and moved back home and reopened up a boxing club in Ros Muc.

Lucas10101

Agree with that celtic tiger.....

henryb

Are you from that part of the world yourself celtic tiger? (rosmuc)
I boxed a few times myself in carraroe many moons ago,
and won a conaught title down there.
some hardy fellas down that neck of the woods!!

megadodge

Celtictiger,

It's obvious from your knowledge of his career that you're a close friend / aquaintance of Mannion's and I think that's what is definitely clouding your judgement. Mannion was a fine fighter and I am in no way putting him down when saying his achievements just flat out don't match up to Collins'.

You saw more of him than me so obviously I can't compare to your first hand witnessing of a number of his fights, but to compare the names you mentioned to the names on Collins' resume is really pushing it. And sparring is exactly that - big gloves, headgear, working on moves etc.

You can blame motivation etc. but to judge a boxer you have to judge him on what he achieved not what he could have achieved !

I'm sorry if I sound like a smartass, especially as I'm from the West myself and have a very healthy respect for Rosmuc boxers (definitely the most consistently physically tough boxers I've come across), but Collins' drive, determination, belief and pure stubborness made him achieve more than Mannion and that's why I rate him higher.

On a better note, I'm glad to hear he's stopped drinking. A former workmate of mine got very friendly with him when he spent 5 years in Boston circa. late 80's early 90's and he told me all about the last number of fights 'upstate' which were purely to earn some drinking money. I hope things have turned out well for him as he certainly came across as a very nice fella.

celtictiger

megadodge wrote:

Celtictiger,

It's obvious from your knowledge of his career that you're a close friend / aquaintance of Mannion's and I think that's what is definitely clouding your judgement. Mannion was a fine fighter and I am in no way putting him down when saying his achievements just flat out don't match up to Collins'.

You saw more of him than me so obviously I can't compare to your first hand witnessing of a number of his fights, but to compare the names you mentioned to the names on Collins' resume is really pushing it. And sparring is exactly that - big gloves, headgear, working on moves etc.

You can blame motivation etc. but to judge a boxer you have to judge him on what he achieved not what he could have achieved !

I'm sorry if I sound like a smartass, especially as I'm from the West myself and have a very healthy respect for Rosmuc boxers (definitely the most consistently physically tough boxers I've come across), but Collins' drive, determination, belief and pure stubborness made him achieve more than Mannion and that's why I rate him higher.

On a better note, I'm glad to hear he's stopped drinking. A former workmate of mine got very friendly with him when he spent 5 years in Boston circa. late 80's early 90's and he told me all about the last number of fights 'upstate' which were purely to earn some drinking money. I hope things have turned out well for him as he certainly came across as a very nice fella.

Nah - I don't think your a smart ass....we all have different opinions and methods by which we rate fighters. I'm not a close friend of Sean Mannions by any means...I did know him well in the eighties and you couldn't meet a nicer fellow which maybe endeared him to me. I judge fighters by who I think would come out on top pound for pound if they met in the ring and not by achievments.....I've seen ordinary fighters win titles by virtue of good management who on paper look like they achieved alot more than they did.

Neither Collins nor Mannion were highly exceptional in the broad scheme of things but as Irish fighters they were right up there at the top of modern day Irish fighters. Put both men in the ring when they were in their prime and I reckon Mannion would win on points. Also sparring maybe a training tool but let me tell you that apart from the added protection there's not alot of difference to the real thing when you step in with a pro that doesn't want to be made look bad by a no namer

megadodge

When I referred to sparring as being just that, I meant in relation to how well you said Mannion did in sparring against Hagler and Hearns. Paul Spadafora gave Floyd Mayweather a boxing lesson a few years ago in sparring (it's on video and I've seen it) but there's no way I'm letting anyone tell me he would beat Mayweather in competition.

Mannion never beat anyone of the calibre of Eubank or Benn. Collins beat both of them - twice. He also easily beat Chris Pyatt and gave McCallum a far harder fight than Mannion did and McCallum was a seriously skilful boxer.

I don't think either of us is going to make the other change his opinion, but I think that Collins would just outwork Mannion if they met.

celtictiger

megadodge wrote:

When I referred to sparring as being just that, I meant in relation to how well you said Mannion did in sparring against Hagler and Hearns. Paul Spadafora gave Floyd Mayweather a boxing lesson a few years ago in sparring (it's on video and I've seen it) but there's no way I'm letting anyone tell me he would beat Mayweather in competition.

Mannion never beat anyone of the calibre of Eubank or Benn. Collins beat both of them - twice. He also easily beat Chris Pyatt and gave McCallum a far harder fight than Mannion did and McCallum was a seriously skilful boxer.

I don't think either of us is going to make the other change his opinion, but I think that Collins would just outwork Mannion if they met.

You're correct - we must agree to disagree, but Collins wouldn't have beaten either Benn or Eubank in their heyday so that argument is rather a moot point. Chris Pyatt? Mannion would have easily taken him too or is that another disagreement? Collins fought McCallum 6 years after Mannion fought him when he was 34 years old plus McCallum was fighting at Middleweight then - weight is a sign of an ageing fighter. I'm sure Mannion would have given him a better fight if McCallum had been 6 years older.There's no doubt Mannion got a beating for 15 rounds (round 9 may have been a draw ) but this was McCallum we're talking about - no shame in getting a pasting from the best - calling McCallum was a seriously skilful boxer is a serious understatement he was definitely one of the most underrated fighters in recent history.

megadodge

but Collins wouldn't have beaten either Benn or Eubank in their heyday so that argument is rather a moot point.

As I already posted, Collins was two years OLDER than Eubank and only 6 months younger than Benn. Eubank's previous fight was one of the very best in his career.

Both these boxers' styles were absolutely made for Collins. Long before he fought them I was constantly telling people that he'd beat either of them and for much bigger money than he was earning in the US. When he eventually signed up to fight Eubank I was begging my friends to put money on Collins to win on points. They thought I was nuts as they reckoned he'd have to KO him to win. So the very first bet I ever put on in a bookies was £20 at 7/2 on Collins to win on points ! It's all about styles ! Eubank loved to pose and ponce around for at least half of every round and most boxers were just too intimidated or not good enough to do anything about it. Collins fought for every second forcing Eubank to fight at a pace he just wasn't used to.

Benn always was wild and relied on his power and allied to the fact that he didn't exactly have a cast-iron chin meant again with Collins chin, workrate and absolute belief in himself that result was never in doubt in my mind. I'll admit Benn was past his best when they fought but the result would always have been the same.

On the other hand someone like Herol Graham (one of the most avoided fighters of the 80's/ early 90's) would have beaten Collins easily as his speed of hand and foot and reflexes would have left Collins swiping at thin air. It's all about styles !

As for McCallum being better when Mannion fought him. That was McCallum's first ever world title fight. By the time he fought Collins he was having his 10th world title fight having shared the ring with and beaten David Braxton, Julian Jackson, Don Curry, Milton McCrory and in the fight before Collins one Herol Graham. AFTER the Collins fight (he was 33 not 34) he beat Watson, reversed his only loss to Kalambay, got robbed against Toney and won another world title at Light Heavy. Even at nearly 40 he was able to go the full distance with Roy Jones. He was as good as he ever could be against Collins and his performances immediately before and after prove that.

celtictiger

megadodge wrote:

On the other hand someone like Herol Graham (one of the most avoided fighters of the 80's/ early 90's) would have beaten Collins easily as his speed of hand and foot and reflexes would have left Collins swiping at thin air. It's all about styles !

Exactly - which is why I reckon Mannion would have taken him on points

On another note it's a shocking pity we were never granted a Hearns v McCallum fight.

lorgain

Big Ears, Ike O`Neill Weir the first World Featherweight Champion was born in Lurgan Co Armagh, I obtained his baptisimal records from St Peters RC Church in Lurgan. Weir was born in 1867 and died in Somerville Mass USA in 1908.
Weir nicknamed The Belfast Spider has been credited with being born in Belfast, this Bangor birthplace is another mistake, there is a plaque commemorating him in Lurgan.

kravist

Big Ears wrote: »

Other Irish fighters that Fitzsimmons and his corner men were livid with Earp and were furiously protesting with him till he pulled a pistol on them ! . Due to the controversial nature of the bout and the return of undefeated champ James J Corbett , Fitzsimmons and Corbett fought for the title and Sharkey could not defend it . Sharkey was from Dundalk .
.

To the best of my knowledge "Gentleman" Jim Corbett was Irish too. Piece of trivia for you, the stain glass windows of Partry Catholic church in Co. Mayo were comissioned by Gentleman Jim..who eventually lost favour with the church for divorcing!

Big Ears

kravist wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge "Gentleman" Jim Corbett was Irish too. Piece of trivia for you, the stain glass windows of Partry Catholic church in Co. Mayo were comissioned by Gentleman Jim..who eventually lost favour with the church for divorcing!

American born , although I think he may have had Irish parents or grandparents .
But if I was counting Irish-Americans I'd be here all day.........fully Irish gentleman Jim was not .

DONNELLON

Corbett's father was from Kilmaine, Co.Mayo(Just over the road from me.)
I like this forum and I'll be back!

bono_v

Fantastic documentary on Seán Mannion on tg4 with subtitles
https://www.tg4.ie/en/programmes/rocky-ros-muc/

Also equally as good radio documentary here;

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2014/0912/647703-sean-mannion-rocky-rosmuc-connemara-boxing/

thegrowreport

bono_v wrote: »

Fantastic documentary on Seán Mannion on tg4 with subtitles
https://www.tg4.ie/en/programmes/rocky-ros-muc/

Also equally as good radio documentary here;

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2014/0912/647703-sean-mannion-rocky-rosmuc-connemara-boxing/

Excellent - thanks for those links. Enjoying the radio doc right now. Really great:)

thegrowreport

my top Irish boxers would be

1. Steve Collins/ Barry McGuigan
2. Carl Frampton
3. Sean Mannion
4. Wayne McCullough/ Michael Carruth / Bernard Dunne
5. Fred Teidt/ Rinty Monaghan