Got fined 45 euro on luas - pretty annoyed. Should i appeal?

JC 2K3

daveym wrote:

u are some sad fecker! see kids dodge the fair all the time, stay near the door keeping an eye out and then hopping off if they spot anyone in yellow. they always seem to think they are mad cool too...

In fairness I did say:

JC 2K3 wrote:

I only take free Luas rides when I genuinely have no money and need to get somewhere fast.

And my whole point of describing the ease of fare dodging on the Luas was to show how genuine fare evaders are never going to be fined/prosecuted and that fining people like the OP is pointless.

Tails142

Yeah... why not just have given a fake name and address and then you wouldnt have to worry about the €45 fine.

dumbyearbook

nipplenuts wrote:

Just for clarity it was two days, but no matter. No ticket is no ticket and an expired ticket is no ticket. It's not that difficult to understand

Ok it was 2 days i was incorrect above..... I think a good Luas user should be looked after and by good i mean actually always buys a ticket (timliness aside..), but the line has to be drawn somewhere i suppose :rolleyes:

Chris_533976

JC 2K3 wrote:

Luas fines are pointless as anyone not paying the fare simply has to watch out for the ticket inspectors who stick out like a sore thumb in their bright, luminous jackets. If you see one at the stop about to get on then you get off. And due to the efficiency of the Luas system, you get another one within 5 mins.

I hate to have to cause a near riot here, but this is an issue that would ONLY happen here. Blatent fare dodging like this and skipping inspectors in this way shows a complete and utter disregard for the system and is shystering in its worst sense.

I only take free Luas rides when I genuinely have no money and need to get somewhere fast, but when I do I can't imagine any way that I'd possibly get caught.

Dont try to put a nice face on it by saying 'genuinly have no money'. You should be ashamed of yourself. Dont have money, dont use the Luas. Simple as that. Walk it and stop screwing over the system.

Mr. Presentable

We complain about our poor public transport system, yet will not pay our fares. How can we improve without money?

AlekSmart

I`d love to know where JC2K3 drinks.
Imagine the nirvana of it all as JC strolls up to the Bar .....

" Ah there ye`are me oul segotia...lissen till I tellya....I forgot to bring the oul walleh wit me,so wudja mind ever so much throwin an oul pint up there for us"

This principle could in fact be extended to many sectors of our world.....The ESB,Bord Gais,Tesco,Dunnes,the local Chinese....no wait forget them...they most certainly do NOT embrace the notion of a credit rating..but you get my point....C`mon what s keepin ye lets roll !!!!

JC 2K3

In fairness I've just turned 18 and don't have a regular place to drink, let alone the money to do so regularly. I pay my Luas fare 90% of the time, but yes, there are times when I genuinely am skint and the Luas is convenient to me. I'd hardly call taking a free Luas ride maybe once every 2 or 3 months "screwing over the system".

In any case, you've all missed my point, which was that fining people like the OP is useless as anyone genuinely fare dodging isn't going to be caught most of the time.

cast_iron

JC 2K3 wrote:

In any case, you've all missed my point, which was that fining people like the OP is useless as anyone genuinely fare dodging isn't going to be caught most of the time.

I disagree.
By not fining people, more people will try to take advantage of the system. When people are fined, it gets noticed and will put those who may be considering it off.

JC 2K3

Oh certainly there should be fines. It's just far too easy to avoid them now.

dowlingm

should the LUAS inspectors be given cameras to take pictures of the people they fine? Then they could stick them on a website (langerswhodontpay.ie) if they are found to have given a false name/address.

monument

TheNog wrote:

You have no grounds for appeal as you do not have any evidence of other people getting off the fine. Just suck it up and learn from it.

Not that it really matters as he didn’t have a valid ticket - I can back up the OP, on the red line people are often asked to get a ticket or get off at the next stop. Unlike him I have seen people getting fined, but then again often because they didn’t get off when asked.

seamus wrote:

"I know I was doing 200km/h Garda, but I was obeying the speed limit for the rest of the day. A fine is a bit bloody harsh"

Wouldn’t the proper analogy be just a few mph or km/h over the limit?
And god ****ing help us as taxpayers and a society if that police and the courts never used discretion.

Cremo wrote:

no court in the universe will find you not guilty.

You’d be amazed by this thing called discretion that is one of the foundation points of our law system.

DerekP11 wrote:

Im a big believer in rules, but unless you have sweeping consistency in the enforcement of all these rules, then I would always encourage a person to take their chances on appeal, if they trully believe they made a mistake. Neither is it a crime to feel you've been done an injustice.

Finally some common sense, most of the other posts here are a reminder of the PC crap you get these days.

Calina wrote:

It's a public transport ticket. How hard is it to ensure you have a valid one?

Very easy if you're using public transport the way it should be used – seamlessly.

On the days I don’t get the bus, I don’t even take my monthly bus/tram ticket out of my wallet.

Victor wrote:

Why not call it a 34 day ticket then? you get a whole month to buy the next ticket.

If I buy the DB version of the bus/tram ticket, yes. But the Luas vending machines validates tickets when they are bought (ie if you buy a new ticket on the last valid day of the old one you lose a day).

But the idea of a number of days 'grace' written in law is silly,

BeautifulLoser wrote:

I was in a similar situation last year. Was getting a weekly ticket every Monday. I was caught with an out of date ticket on a Tuesday after a Bank holiday Monday. It was one day out of date. I had the previous three weeks' tickets on me but they fined me anyway.

Like with the OP’s two days over, that's just crazy, finding people who regularly buy monthly tickets and gone a day or two over is not the point of having ticket inspectors. But good on them for giving you the money back afterwards.

Enigma365

Luas fines are pointless as anyone not paying the fare simply has to watch out for the ticket inspectors who stick out like a sore thumb in their bright, luminous jackets. If you see one at the stop about to get on then you get off. And due to the efficiency of the Luas system, you get another one within 5 mins.

About a month ago, I was checked by undercover inpectors. They were in their early twenties(and were quite possibly students), and only took out their id tags from under their jackets when the tram started moving.

Don't know how common they are though.

copacetic

monument wrote:

Finally some common sense, most of the other posts here are a reminder of the PC crap you get these days.

so expecting people to actually pay for the service they are using is politcal correctness gone mad?

your ideas intrigue me, can I please subscribe to your newsletter?

seamus

monument wrote:

Wouldn’t the proper analogy be just a few mph or km/h over the limit?
And god ****ing help us as taxpayers and a society if that police and the courts never used discretion.

Not really. I wanted to pick an example that was black and white. This case is black and white. Discretion would have been "My card expired halfway through today". 2 days out of date is a no brainer. If you're regularly buying tickets, especially monthly ones, then keeping track shouldn't be an issue. Every time you swipe it, you check it. Easy.

Victor

monument wrote:

But the idea of a number of days 'grace' written in law is silly

Reminds me of this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=238861

parsi

I can see a market now for used weekly passes....buy a few consecutive ones and travel free for a week :"but I've being buying them regularly - look here's my old ones..."

dame

You didn't have a valid ticket, that's that.

To be honest I think they should fine every single person who gets on the Luas without a ticket, not just tell them to get off at the next stop and buy one.

I've seen a girl (mid 20's) who got on at Heuston asked for her ticket and she produced her train ticket from Galway. It was politely pointed out that this was not a Luas ticket and she coolly said "Oh I thought it covered the Luas as well". Inspector told her to get off at the next stop and buy a ticket (as they do). She didn't and when he came back to her again after next stop she said bold as brass "I'll get off at the next one". Now the next stop was Jervis which was most likely where she was headed to start with. She wasn't fined.

Another case I've seen was where a middle-aged couple were asked and the man produced a ticket. The inspector waited expectantly for a minute while the couple ignored him until he asked the woman for hers. It was so obvious she didn't have one. She turned to the husband and asked "Did you not show him mine as well?", he said "no, you got your own", she said "No you got it dear" and both started rummaging in their pockets but then the inspector gave up and said "You probably just mislaid it" and moved on.

Why the hell do any of us need a ticket if the inspectors just decide to let people go rather than make a fuss?
Zero Tolerance - that's the only fair solution!

cast_iron

dame wrote:

You didn't have a valid ticket, that's that.

To be honest I think they should fine every single person who gets on the Luas without a ticket, not just tell them to get off at the next stop and buy one.

I've seen a girl (mid 20's) who got on at Heuston asked for her ticket and she produced her train ticket from Galway. It was politely pointed out that this was not a Luas ticket and she coolly said "Oh I thought it covered the Luas as well". Inspector told her to get off at the next stop and buy a ticket (as they do). She didn't and when he came back to her again after next stop she said bold as brass "I'll get off at the next one". Now the next stop was Jervis which was most likely where she was headed to start with. She wasn't fined.

Another case I've seen was where a middle-aged couple were asked and the man produced a ticket. The inspector waited expectantly for a minute while the couple ignored him until he asked the woman for hers. It was so obvious she didn't have one. She turned to the husband and asked "Did you not show him mine as well?", he said "no, you got your own", she said "No you got it dear" and both started rummaging in their pockets but then the inspector gave up and said "You probably just mislaid it" and moved on.

Why the hell do any of us need a ticket if the inspectors just decide to let people go rather than make a fuss?
Zero Tolerance - that's the only fair solution!

Very true.

Though it's a sad thing to admit, you can't really blame the guys who should dish out the fines too much.
I mean, when you piss against the wind, in the end, who gets wet?

DerekP11

I've seen a girl (mid 20's) who got on at Heuston asked for her ticket and she produced her train ticket from Galway. It was politely pointed out that this was not a Luas ticket and she coolly said "Oh I thought it covered the Luas as well". Inspector told her to get off at the next stop and buy a ticket (as they do). She didn't and when he came back to her again after next stop she said bold as brass "I'll get off at the next one". Now the next stop was Jervis which was most likely where she was headed to start with. She wasn't fined.

This ticket should automatically include the Luas/bus transfer to the city centre. So you see, the lack of any form of integrated ticketing may well be the undoing of any current system.

so expecting people to actually pay for the service they are using is politcal correctness gone mad?

I don't think you fully understood Monuments point and now you're displaying the aforementioned PCism. Is the world truly balck and white?

Calina

Why exactly should a mainline rail ticket automatically include local transport in Dublin?

In any case, it does not, at present include a Luas portion. The girl hadn't paid, therefore she was in the wrong. See - the issue I have in Dublin is that a lot of people endeavour to get away without paying the little things like busfares for the full journey, or the Luas and other people come along and try to somehow justify it by saying "well, they shouldn't have to pay it because the rules aren't applied equally" or "they shouldn't be charging it anyway."

The problem DerekP11 is that as far as being required to pay a public transport fare is concerned, yes, the world is black and white. If you don't have a valid ticket, you're in the wrong. The fact that a mainline national rail ticket may cover a Luas trek in Dublin City at some point in the future doesn't automatically mean that anyone who cheated the system and didn't pay in the past is somehow justified. It's still dishonesty and again, dare I say it, an example of the general tendency in this country for people to endeavour to get away with whatever they can.

In any case, I question whether a mainline rail ticket should automatically include a local transfer. It should perhaps be possible to buy a mainline rail ticket with a local transfer in Dublin, but it shouldn't be automatic, particularly if the impact on the ticket is a subtle increase in price. Not everyone uses or needs it.

copacetic

DerekP11 wrote:

I don't think you fully understood Monuments point and now you're displaying the aforementioned PCism. Is the world truly balck and white?

I believe I did, it's not exactly a complex argument. Of course it is possible that the pair of you have very different definition of 'PCism' to the rest of the world. I'll grant you that..

MarkoP11

Any rail ticket issued to Dublin City Centre is valid on the Luas red line within the central zone, there still remains considerable confusion as to which tickets are valid

For example a ticket Clontraf Hazelhatch bought from the ticket vending machine is not valid where as one bought from the booking office is. Certain tickets are valid on the 90/91/92 bus but are not valid on the Luas

As such a passenger who claims to have a Luas valid rail ticket should be granted the benefit of the doubt

Luas ticket checkers are not infallible and do make mistakes and I can recall a incident where a passenger with a valid ticket was threatened with a fine, why? the Luas inspector could not understand the concept of a Luas ticket bought on the red line with central zone as destination was valid for travel on the Green line (it is as far as Charlemont)

DerekP11

Why exactly should a mainline rail ticket automatically include local transport in Dublin?

Heuston station is not, by any means of the imagination, close to Dublin city centre. For over 50 years CIE had the monopoly on bus and rail. They failed to make sense of it. Automatically ajusting rail fares into Heuston to include onward transfer by 90 bus to the "city centre" is hardly beyond commonsense. This assumption should also be applied to luas. Since 1847, the single biggest issue with Heuston station was its "remoteness". Thats why we got jarveys, buses, taxis and then a Luas.
Furthermore, you should be able to buy your mainline rail ticket on the 90 bus for an outbound journey. If the tickets automatically included the city centre connection, we'd have a lot less evasion, confusion and fair system.

DerekP11

daveym wrote:

I believe I did, it's not exactly a complex argument. Of course it is possible that the pair of you have very different definition of 'PCism' to the rest of the world. I'll grant you that..

I'd prefer if you didn't grant me anything. But you could replace your condescending response with something a little more explanatory. Judging from your contribution on this thread, you'd make a good traffic warden/clamper etc. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Not everyone on the luas without a proper ticket is a deliberate fare dodger. To say that everyone should be dealt with in the same manner, only works if there's consistency in the system and a system that is uncomplicated. Irelands public transport ticketing is extremely complicated and there is absolutely no consistency in the way ticketless passengers are dealt with. So having the "throw 'em off" attitude applied to genuine people is PCism gone mad.

Victor

Calina wrote:

In any case, I question whether a mainline rail ticket should automatically include a local transfer. It should perhaps be possible to buy a mainline rail ticket with a local transfer in Dublin, but it shouldn't be automatic, particularly if the impact on the ticket is a subtle increase in price. Not everyone uses or needs it.

The option is already available to buy a Luas / route 90/92 add on.

DerekP11 wrote:

Furthermore, you should be able to buy your mainline rail ticket on the 90 bus for an outbound journey. If the tickets automatically included the city centre connection, we'd have a lot less evasion, confusion and fair system.

It might be impractical buying a 50 euro ticket (imagine hte change in 1 euro coins )with lots of options and say seat reservation on a bus, but I would have no problem with you insisting on being able to buy such a ticket on a fixed site like Connolly, Tara St. or the Irish Rail centre on Abbey Street.

optiplexgx270

And you gave your correct details ... erm WHY!?

ID - Nope I don't have any on me why would i I'm only on way to X
VISA/Anything to ID yourself - Nope don't have a bank account

False details - Why of course I'm J. Smith from Cork now feck off.

I don't use the Luas much and always buy singles. But if i was a regular and had a ticket (weekly/monthly) 1 day out of date no way I'd give correct details.

MarkoP11

Victor wrote:

The option is already available to buy a Luas / route 90/92 add on.
It might be impractical buying a 50 euro ticket (imagine hte change in 1 euro coins )with lots of options and say seat reservation on a bus, but I would have no problem with you insisting on being able to buy such a ticket on a fixed site like Connolly, Tara St. or the Irish Rail centre on Abbey Street.

Irish Rail only permitted reservations to Dublin City Centre in the last week or so, this has been on the to do list since last July

However Luas inspectors are likely to be eager to issue penalty fares to people holding these tickets since they won't indicate LUAS valid while the fare is the correct one. Collect Connolly or Abbey Street

I don't know the full list of valid tickets, the Luas inspectors dont so what does the passenger do

Victor

optiplexgx270 wrote:

False details - Why of course I'm J. Smith from Cork now feck off.

Such behavior may get you arrested for providing false details.

optiplexgx270

MEH - Like to see them prove it, and they have zero power to hold you there to find the Guards.

MarkoP11

In fact if you have a monthly ticket you must have a CIE or Luas ID card so they have your name and can get your address

Luas records penalty fares electronically so they should be able to catch repeat offenders with false addresses

Giving false details will result in the penalty fare option been withdrawn and a court summons issued. Irish Rail staff carry Tom's directory so they can confirm addresses and they have no fear of calling the gardai to meet them to extract you, a recent case where the gardai where called the passenger was infact in the right

If you have a valid ticket don't be afraid to challenge the inspector, insist on get his/her name and insist you are told the specifc reason and the specific bye law that they claim you are in breech of

End of the day those who are not paying are directly forcing the rest of us to pay up extra in higher fares

copacetic

DerekP11 wrote:

I'd prefer if you didn't grant me anything. But you could replace your condescending response with something a little more explanatory. Judging from your contribution on this thread, you'd make a good traffic warden/clamper etc. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Not everyone on the luas without a proper ticket is a deliberate fare dodger. To say that everyone should be dealt with in the same manner, only works if there's consistency in the system and a system that is uncomplicated. Irelands public transport ticketing is extremely complicated and there is absolutely no consistency in the way ticketless passengers are dealt with. So having the "throw 'em off" attitude applied to genuine people is PCism gone mad.

ok then, I hate to be condescending again (I don't really) but please define what you believe political correctness to mean. From what you are saying you don't think it means:

"Political correctness is a term generally used to disparage efforts to raise awareness about and eliminate social and political biases in language and other forms of representation. The term also appears in the adjectival form politically correct (often abbreviated PC). While it frequently refers to a linguistic phenomenon, it is also extended to cover political ideology and behavior. "

You seem to think it means

"Zero tolerance is a strict approach to rule enforcement. It can be used as the basis of formal laws in a country or region, or in a smaller environment, such as a public school or the workplace. As the name suggests, zero tolerance policies allow for absolutely no levels of tolerance or compromise for violators of the law in question. Punishment under such policies is unwaveringly severe"

which is of course a definition of zero tolerance. Which in general I wouldn't be for but I would expect people who don't have a ticket to pay the fine when caught, if they have a valid reason fair enough a bit of leeway, but the OP just forgot to buy his ticket, I wouldn't call this valid. I also never got behind this 'throw them off' attitude you speak of, that would hardly discourage people from doing the same thing again. I'd be behind the 'fine them' attitude or 'make them pay the standard fare' attitude.

So in my opinion you don't understand what you are saying

Innocent until proven guilty? The OP himself said he was guilty. He wasn't claiming innocence.
The luas ticket system is hardly complicated for normal people like us, maybe you struggle with having to have a ticket to get on the tram but everyone else can understand it. There are signs all over ever Luas stop and on all the trams in case you forget too..

faceman

Has the OP appealing this yet n got a response? Its been draggin a while!

DerekP11

daveym wrote:

ok then, I hate to be condescending again (I don't really) but please define what you believe political correctness to mean. From what you are saying you don't think it means:

"Political correctness is a term generally used to disparage efforts to raise awareness about and eliminate social and political biases in language and other forms of representation. The term also appears in the adjectival form politically correct (often abbreviated PC). While it frequently refers to a linguistic phenomenon, it is also extended to cover political ideology and behavior. "

You seem to think it means

"Zero tolerance is a strict approach to rule enforcement. It can be used as the basis of formal laws in a country or region, or in a smaller environment, such as a public school or the workplace. As the name suggests, zero tolerance policies allow for absolutely no levels of tolerance or compromise for violators of the law in question. Punishment under such policies is unwaveringly severe"

which is of course a definition of zero tolerance. Which in general I wouldn't be for but I would expect people who don't have a ticket to pay the fine when caught, if they have a valid reason fair enough a bit of leeway, but the OP just forgot to buy his ticket, I wouldn't call this valid. I also never got behind this 'throw them off' attitude you speak of, that would hardly discourage people from doing the same thing again. I'd be behind the 'fine them' attitude or 'make them pay the standard fare' attitude.

So in my opinion you don't understand what you are saying

Innocent until proven guilty? The OP himself said he was guilty. He wasn't claiming innocence.
The luas ticket system is hardly complicated for normal people like us, maybe you struggle with having to have a ticket to get on the tram but everyone else can understand it. There are signs all over ever Luas stop and on all the trams in case you forget too..

I don't have enough time in my day for people like you. What you know about public transport could probably be written on the back of a postcard. Furthermore were spoling the thread. Read the thread again and lose the attitude.If you want to contact me through my official channel, I'll happily educate you in relation to why Ticket enforcement on Irish public Transport is inconsistant and why its actually complicated. I also point out to you where in this thread you turned into a jumped up twat. But its all best done in the privacy of email. But Im also available to meet in person. I always like to help public transport users. I assume you are one. As for the correct definition of Poltitical correctness, I'll leave that to your internet dictionary, which you proudly promote.

copacetic

DerekP11 wrote:

I don't have enough time in my day for people like you. What you know about public transport could probably be written on the back of a postcard. Furthermore were spoling the thread. Read the thread again and lose the attitude.If you want to contact me through my official channel, I'll happily educate you in relation to why Ticket enforcement on Irish public Transport is inconsistant and why its actually complicated. I also point out to you where in this thread you turned into a jumped up twat. But its all best done in the privacy of email. But Im also available to meet in person. I always like to help public transport users. I assume you are one. As for the correct definition of Poltitical correctness, I'll leave that to your internet dictionary, which you proudly promote.

Ok I'm confused now, you asked me to explain what I meant. I did and pointed out you seemed to have a different definition of PCism from the rest of the world. I pasted a definition from the interweb, but could have slapped up a dictionary one if that would suit you better. I assume your lame attempt to blame your defintion being wrong on the 'internet' is a realisation on your part that you have no actual argument?

As for asking me to 'lose the attitude' while calling me names and offering to 'educate' me, well. needless to say I'm not sure you would be able to educate anybody about anything. As for your 'official capacity' I actually didn't realise you were officially something. I'd well believe it though..

DerekP11

daveym wrote:

Ok I'm confused now, you asked me to explain what I meant. I did and pointed out you seemed to have a different definition of PCism from the rest of the world. I pasted a definition from the interweb, but could have slapped up a dictionary one if that would suit you better. I assume your lame attempt to blame your defintion being wrong on the 'internet' is a realisation on your part that you have no actual argument?

As for asking me to 'lose the attitude' while calling me names and offering to 'educate' me, well. needless to say I'm not sure you would be able to educate anybody about anything. As for your 'official capacity' I actually didn't realise you were officially something. I'd well believe it though..

You're a very angry person and your expression reflects that. I think I'd rather leave you to the internet world you're so brave in. As I said, Ive more important things to be doing. So have your final say on this thread and invite your friends around and show then how capable, knowledgeable and trully in control you are.

I assume your lame attempt to blame your defintion being wrong on the 'internet' is a realisation on your part that you have no actual argument?

This one will really impress them.

dame

DerekP11 wrote:

This ticket should automatically include the Luas/bus transfer to the city centre. So you see, the lack of any form of integrated ticketing may well be the undoing of any current system.

It would automatically include the Luas/bus transfer if she had PAID for it, which she obviously hadn't. I pay extra every month when getting my ticket for commuting (on Kildare line), that allows me to use the Luas/bus in and out of town from Heuston.

Calina

DerekP11 and daveym, tone it down a bit, would you.

Edit: actually on reflection: DerekP11 is on holiday for a week.

_______________________

Back on topic:

OP didn't have a valid ticket, knows he didn't have a valid ticket, is suggesting he should be let off for not having a valid ticket...Fine. I don't think he should.

Regarding the enforcement of fare payment DerekP11, you say it's inconsistent and complicated. I expect it - to some extent, to be inconsistent in terms of actually checking. I have issues with the repercussions for those who haven't paid. You might - briefly - explain why it is complicated to expect people to have paid for their tickets, particularly on Dublin local services where it isn't exactly - in my opinion and based on 8 years of experience living here - difficult to garner yourself the right ticket. {edit} I'll take the explanation by PM or wait until your ban expires.

On the subject of the location of Heuston: I've walked from Aston Quay there a number of times. I don't have an issue with actually paying for the bus, or Luas, or buying an add-on for the rail ticket. I do have an issue with assuming such a thing should be automatic because that does cost people who may not use the service and in my opinion, that is not necessarily fair either. At any rate, the point remains, if it's not covered, it's not covered and someone who hasn't bought the add on is in the wrong.

SeanW

emm .. yes the ticketing options for rail based transport both in Dublin and Ireland generally are quite crazy. Irish Rail's fare structure is arcane and its ticketing policy is completely inconsistent and counter-intuitive, and where you need tickets that cover the operations of more than one company, that's when the real fun starts.

For example, how many people know that there's a Day Saver ticket that covers unlimited travel on "Short Hop Zone" Rail and Luas? What it's called? How much it costs? What are the boundaries of the "short hop zone." Or what about those idiotic Luas+bus tickets that have to be vaildated on a bus before they can be used on a tram? How many people know enough details about the City Centre Add on and what it covers.

If you go to many other cities in the world, for example, Berlin, there is a single transport authority that implements customer information, fares and ticketing policies. There it's very simple, buy one ticket for whatever travel is required, validate it at a machine right beside the vender, then get going. And there are maps all over the place showing you what travel is covered under the BVG umbrella and that's pretty much everything in the city.

You would have to be a total idiot to make a genuine mistake there. But here it's far from impossible for people to break conditions of travel inadvertantly.

popebenny16

You might - briefly - explain why it is complicated to expect people to have paid for their tickets, particularly on Dublin local services where it isn't exactly - in my opinion and based on 8 years of experience living here - difficult to garner yourself the right ticket.

There is no brief explanation. Sorry about that but its a real pain in the arse when the world dosnt work to your commands. I wasnt aware that bevity was in the charter, which i have read, long before you ever showed up so please dont waste our time in pm'ing it to me. I've got 35 years experience of living here, isn't that great, maybe your eight years have been more intensive. There was, i think, a thread about it already on this very board which you moderate about four or six months ago.

This thread has gone waaaayyy off topic. None of the posts are about the actual issue anymore, its now into its third issue. Alas, Derek fell foul of the old trick of someone who didnt actually understand what you're talking about riling you up so much that you call them a twat and get yourself banned in the process.

As the O/p, no he should appeal, as it wont cost him anything and it might from some sort of release for him. He wont get anywhere, the fact is that there is a standard fine, its entirely up to the discretion of the ticket checker to impose the fine or throw you out depending on the circumstances, in his case the ticket checker chose a course of action that is entirely correct and right.

parsi

Blaming a complicated ticket system is really just making excuses. Surely by now our supposedly educated population knows that you have to have a valid ticket to travel.

OK so the old days of buying a ticket to "O'connell Bridge" are gone (not that many people used it anyways) but the basic fact is there - you pay for each stage of your transport separately.

How is a ticket checker to know that Joe Soap genuinely forgot to get a ticket whilst it is Joesephine Soap's 15th time "forgetting" ?

Why do people (P11 includeded) blame inadequate systems for their failure to comply ? The lack of an integrated ticketing system is constantly bemoaned but yet when folk don't have a ticket they suddenly claim that they thought that their Omnibus ticket also covered the train or their train ticket covered the Luas...

We've all pulled fast ones with tickets but if you're caught you have to accept it and deal with it.

copacetic

popebenny16 wrote:

There is no brief explanation. Sorry about that but its a real pain in the arse when the world dosnt work to your commands. I wasnt aware that bevity was in the charter, which i have read, long before you ever showed up so please dont waste our time in pm'ing it to me. I've got 35 years experience of living here, isn't that great, maybe your eight years have been more intensive. There was, i think, a thread about it already on this very board which you moderate about four or six months ago.

This thread has gone waaaayyy off topic. None of the posts are about the actual issue anymore, its now into its third issue. Alas, Derek fell foul of the old trick of someone who didnt actually understand what you're talking about riling you up so much that you call them a twat and get yourself banned in the process.

As the O/p, no he should appeal, as it wont cost him anything and it might from some sort of release for him. He wont get anywhere, the fact is that there is a standard fine, its entirely up to the discretion of the ticket checker to impose the fine or throw you out depending on the circumstances, in his case the ticket checker chose a course of action that is entirely correct and right.

I understood exactly what DerekP11 was saying, I just think it is juvenille rubbish. I pointed out that he didn't understand what 'PC' meant which is clear from the thread above. When he realised he had made a fool of himself all of a sudden he 'didn't have time for this' he went straight for the abuse. If that's 'tricking' him in your opinion fair enough. I don't see how I 'tricked' him into not understanding what he was posting.

Also I am not trying to 'trick' you into being abusive either although you are clearly almost there already with your post above.

Victor

On topic or else.

popebenny16

Why do people (P11 includeded) blame inadequate systems for their failure to comply ?

P11 don't advocate fare evasion. Derek was making another (albeit off-topic) point altogether. Please see the last paragraph of my last reply.

'tricking'

Point taken, "fallen foul off" would be a better description.

Also I am not trying to 'trick' you into being abusive either although you are clearly almost there already with your post above.

I'm the nice one. Would I be abusive to you? Never!!!

Anyway, I think the general consensus is that he was caught rapid. The other issue deserves the old thread perhaps being resurrected.

2funki4wheelz

Can I just add (on topic )

I've never seen anyone get away without having a fine written out for them on the Red line - and I'm on it minimum twice a day Connolly-Heuston. I've seen & heard plenty of "I've no ID to prove my makey-up address" and seen one young guy (in a suit fresh from the IFSC - before everyone makes the usual red line assumptions) leg it out the door. There's been plenty of good analogies by other posters already in relation to the arguement 'but others get away with it'.

Secondly, the OP's 'I had unfortunately thought' it was valid just doesn't wash with me. Any regular customer is in the habit of renewing their tickets, and the Luas should be treated like a bus/dart/train and you should think that you can't even get on without a valid ticket and check yourself. You don't leave your house without checking to see you have your keys.

parsi

parsi wrote:

Why do people (P11 includeded) blame inadequate systems for their failure to comply ?

popebenny16 wrote:

P11 don't advocate fare evasion. Derek was making another (albeit off-topic) point altogether.

I didn't say P11 advocated fare evasion. Read the line again.

derekp11 wrote:

If the tickets automatically included the city centre connection, we'd have a lot less evasion, confusion and fair system.

I read that comment as meaning that the fact that tickets don't cover the city centre is causing evasion i.e that it is the system's fault that we have evasion (and not the fact that folk choose to live in fairy land and believe that they don't have to buy a ticket).

cast_iron

So OP, what did you do, and had you any luck in the end?

popebenny16

"Read that line again" is, BTW, an attack on the poster, not the post, but I'll let you off this time without reporting it.

So, lets parse your line, shall we?

Here it is:

Why do people (P11 includeded) blame inadequate systems for their failure to comply ?

Failure to comply in this context means not paying a fare. To comply with the terms and conditions of travel involves paying the correct fare. Therefore not so paying equates to a failure to comply.

Blaming inadequate systems implies that someone is tendering a defence to failing to comply.

Refering to P11 included as that someonne implies that P11 is therefore tendering that defence.

In tendering a defence you are advocating an argument that what you are doing was either correct or was justifiable, therefore you are implying that P11 are advocating fare evasion.

So, there you are, I actually had read your line. Perhaps it didnt represent what you were thinking, no?

And whilst the part that you quoted from Derek is off-topic it is a valid (but different) point altogether. It wasnt advocated as a reason why this o/p had a defence to not having a valid ticket. It was an observation that a simplier system would eliminate most of the ability to either deliberatly fare evade or to do it (as in the case of the o/p) by mishap.

Victor

Special sign for Dapos. http://www.luas.ie/ul/69.pdf

popebenny16

Victor wrote:

Special sign for Dapos. http://www.luas.ie/ul/69.pdf

Ouch!

2funki4wheelz

The leaflet was left on all the seats last Friday on the red line and were being topped up in Connolly when trams came in.