One third of new primary teachers not up to mark

Tom Dunne

I heard this on the radio this morning, here's an excerpt from D'Indo:
(registration required)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial] The report, by the Department of Education, raises serious questions about the quality of teachers responsible for the education of thousands of pupils in their critical learning years.
It discloses that anything up to 500 of the 1,400 student teachers in their final year have 'significant weaknesses' in their teaching skills.
[/FONT]

I find this quite startling, dare I say worrying. You have the best and the brightest applying to become teachers (the report notes the high points required to get into primary teaching), yet it seems that when they get to the end of the course, some of them just simply aren't teacher material. Is this the case? Are people training to become primary teachers for the wrong reasons?

Trotter

tom dunne wrote:

I heard this on the radio this morning, here's an excerpt from D'Indo:
(registration required)



I find this quite startling, dare I say worrying. You have the best and the brightest applying to become teachers (the report notes the high points required to get into primary teaching), yet it seems that when they get to the end of the course, some of them just simply aren't teacher material. Is this the case? Are people training to become primary teachers for the wrong reasons?

Am I right then in suggesting that this article is excluding those who graduate from the post grad courses?


"The report was carried out by a team of inspectors. They reviewed the work of 143 final year student teachers in 2003/2004 when they were on their last teaching practice in school."

Its seems to focus on the B.Ed. What I would love to see is a comparison between the B.Ed findings as discussed in that article, and similar findings for the post grad in primary teaching graduates.

Does having some "life experience" before going into primary teaching make all the difference??

Tom Dunne

Trotter wrote:

Am I right then in suggesting that this article is excluding those who graduate from the post grad courses?

Ah, very good point. It does appear so. I'll see if I can dig up the actual report, rather than the Inodo's tabloid-slanted reporting of the report.

Trotter wrote:

Its seems to focus on the B.Ed. What I would love to see is a comparison between the B.Ed findings as discussed in that article, and similar findings for the post grad in primary teaching graduates.

Are post-grad primary teaching courses more common? It would also be interesting to see the breakdown of primary techers by the course they do (B.Ed vs. post-grad).

Trotter wrote:

Does having some "life experience" before going into primary teaching make all the difference??

Another excellent point. There is no question whatsoever - yes it would. And I think it would change the way in which a teacher approaches a class and the methods they use. I would imagine those teacher straight out of college would essentially do things by the book, whereas those with "life experiences" would certainly adhere to "the book" but would have the confidence to throw in their own slant.

fletch

My mate stepped straight out of college with a 2.2 in a Bachelor of Arts and is working in a Secondary School with absolutely NO teacher training. I find this quite shocking to be honest. I know from personal experience that there is a big difference between someone who is intelligent and somebody who makes a good teacher.

spurious

Perhaps this will make them look at how they select people for teaching courses. High marks in the Leaving does not necessarily a good teacher make.

The article itself does not make it clear how they made the leap from the 100 odd students they looked at to the whole student body, but then the Indo does like a bit of teacher bashing during every mid-term.

I'm sure reading the full report from the DES (there IS no Dept. of Ed., though perhaps the Indo journos don't know this) will make more illuminating reading.

Trotter

Teacher bashing is a favourite across the Irish media. I for one am completely sick of it. Middle aged journalists got a hard time from teachers years ago and so seem to think that by bashing ALL teachers now, they're somehow getting one back on the profession.

Imagine if there was a "blue flu" by teachers one day. The country would stop because our babysitting service wouldnt be available.

Its disgusting how undervalued, disrespected, and undersupported teachers are. Add underpaid to that list too.

What percentage of Gardaí, Army officers or Civil servants underperform in their first year? I dont know.. mainly because the figures wouldnt be worthy of the front pages of the newspapers.

Teacher bashing is just a part of Irish culture that is encouraged by the "news"papers.

killbillvol2

You'll get used to the teacher bashing Trotter. It goes in one ear and out the other.

The article today was interesting though. The report it's based on was written by DES inspectors who inspected 143 final year B. Ed students on their final teaching practice. DES inspectors don't spend very long assessing students on TP so on that basis alone the findings are suspect. Also, if 5% were "unsatisfactory" what did the inspectors do about it? Nothing apparently.

As others have mentioned, the selection process for the B. Ed courses needs to be looked at. When I went to college in 1982 (:eek: ) there were 2 separate interviews and 3 music tests as well as points. Now it's just points. The idea that someone who gets 450 points is automatically suited to teaching is ludicrous.

fletch

Trotter wrote:

Add underpaid to that list too.

My mate is getting €40 an hour straight out of college! :eek: I don't think that's underpaid by any stretch of the imagination.

Trotter

fletch wrote:

My mate is getting €40 an hour straight out of college! :eek: I don't think that's underpaid by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes he is. He isnt paid for days off, i.e. Summertime.. Easter, Christmas. He isnt paid for any time during the day where he isnt in class either. If your friend does 2 38minute classes in the morning, and 1 in the evening, he/she will be paid €76 for the day. He/She will end up staying on the premises for the full school day. Now take it that he/she wont be called in every day unless there is someone out sick. Even if he/she was earning that every day, for 52 weeks of the year, they still wouldnt be bringing home 20k a year.




Do some research on the teaching pay scales and you'll see its fine for the first few years, but it takes 20 years to get to a wage where some people are getting to in 5 to 10 years in the private service.

Kinetic^

1 out of 3 eh, I'm going to be out with a few who've graduated in the past few years.........they're gonna hear all about this little baby

GAA widow

Trotter wrote:

"The report was carried out by a team of inspectors. They reviewed the work of 143 final year student teachers in 2003/2004 when they were on their last teaching practice in school."

143 final year students seems like quite a small control group considering there are 400+ students per year grouping in some of the colleges of education.

i'd love to know what the exact criteria was for assessing their competency - was it solely based on teaching practice methods in curricular areas or what?

TheDriver

killbillvol2 wrote:

You'll get used to the teacher bashing Trotter. It goes in one ear and out the other.

The article today was interesting though. The report it's based on was written by DES inspectors who inspected 143 final year B. Ed students on their final teaching practice. DES inspectors don't spend very long assessing students on TP so on that basis alone the findings are suspect. Also, if 5% were "unsatisfactory" what did the inspectors do about it? Nothing apparently.

As others have mentioned, the selection process for the B. Ed courses needs to be looked at. When I went to college in 1982 (:eek: ) there were 2 separate interviews and 3 music tests as well as points. Now it's just points. The idea that someone who gets 450 points is automatically suited to teaching is ludicrous.

Don't you just love the "ye have great holidays" bashing, I learnt that the only reply is "why don't you do it so" and that always shuts people up. Regarding getting teaching straight out of college, he will never be made permanent or CID unless he has formal teaching training so he is simply subbing and never anything more. Sounds good money now but not as a wage.
Definitely, experience is a lot, We all thought we knew the world when we first entered the profession and how wrong we were!

Mrs. MacGyver

Seriously folks, i think Trotter and the driver are the only people who have a semblance of understanding how hard a teacher's life is.

I used to teach, the holidays weren't worh it, youd need a longer break if you knew what we had to put up with. When we go home, we had to plan lessons, correct homework and prepare L.C/J.C. materials, There were some nights i didn't finish this type of work til 8 o'clock. Practically a 11 hour day! I

I left teaching and am now in a job that earns more, is rewarding, i still get to train and work with people hols are short but i enjoy them all the more.

So before you slag teachers off, step into their shoes, it's not all plain sailing.

PS: Not all final year b.ed students are subject to a final supervision by a dept. inspector as far as i know.

killbillvol2

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Seriously folks, i think Trotter and the driver are the only people who have a semblance of understanding how hard a teacher's life is.
I used to teach, the holidays weren't worh it, youd need a longer break if you knew what we had to put up with. When we go home, we had to plan lessons, correct homework and prepare L.C/J.C. materials, There were some nights i didn't finish this type of work til 8 o'clock. Practically a 11 hour day! I

I left teaching and am now in a job that earns more, is rewarding, i still get to train and work with people hols are short but i enjoy them all the more.

So before you slag teachers off, step into their shoes, it's not all plain sailing.

PS: Not all final year b.ed students are subject to a final supervision by a dept. inspector as far as i know.

Sorry I couldn't reply to your ill-informed post earlier but I was away (mid-term break!). I'd have a pretty good idea about a teacher's life given that I've been doing it since 1985. Spurious has been at it for over 20 years too IIRC. GAA Widow is no novice either. Trotter is currently studying to be a teacher (hope TP went well?).

Maybe you should actually read our posts before you pass comment?

Trotter

Sorry guys, that post slipped under my radar. Anyone annoyed at posts should please use the report post function, it basically results in an email being sent for my attention.. that way I can deal with it asap.

Its not true that there are 2 teachers here with knowledge of "the real" life of a teacher. There are lots more. I've learned a lot from a whole lot of people on this board too.

The reason I answer so much of the stuff coming in is A) Im a moderator and I've been teaching while training for 18 months and before that I was teaching in secondary for 3 years! (Not many know that one )

There's plenty of good expertise on this forum, in lecturing, secondary and primary teaching.

killbillvol2 wrote:

Trotter is currently studying to be a teacher (hope TP went well?).

Thanks killbillvol2, TP went really well. The grades were at the top end of the scale so cant ask for more than that.

They'd want to be though! Im at this game for 4 years now..

Nice to see experience counts for a lot as a newbie primary teacher. I actually believe all primary teachers should have to do a TP in secondary.. it broadens the mind and shows you what the children you teach are going to experience over the next 6 years after primary.

killbillvol2

Trotter wrote:

Sorry guys, that post slipped under my radar. Anyone annoyed at posts should please use the report post function.

It was hardly worth reporting and I'm well able to stand up for myself without hassling the Mod!

Tom Dunne

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

I used to teach, the holidays weren't worh it, youd need a longer break if you knew what we had to put up with.

I think this sentence alone speaks volumes.

Anyway, back on topic. I am delighted to see the responses on this thread to the report. In my mind, the validity of the report has been severely undermined and the Indo has simply engaged in unashamed teacher bashing.

Trotter

killbillvol2 wrote:

It was hardly worth reporting and I'm well able to stand up for myself without hassling the Mod!

Sorry killbillvol2.. I was just saying that I would have said something about the post, had I read it. You're not hassling at all, I often decide that reported posts are ok and leave them to it. I didnt mean you werent able to stand up for yourself You clearly are


Anyway.. As tom dunne says.. back on topic we go.

How many teachers will continue to buy the indo this week and put their free posters up in classrooms all over the country?? Lots!! They slap us with one hand and feed us with the other.

slickmcvic

A key point being missed here is that the report was conducted at the begining of a teachers career....Its not the type of job you can just graduate & be an expert at,at the level of support and induction for new teachers in this country is practically nathin!!

GAA widow

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

PS: Not all final year b.ed students are subject to a final supervision by a dept. inspector as far as i know.

That's very true, Mrs. McGyver.
However all B.Ed. students are subject to supervision by a dept. inspector after they graduate - a probationary year, regardless of the standard of their B.Ed. degree. At the end of that time they are deemed either satisfactory or unsatisfactory by the Department of Education.

I agree with killbillvol.2, i don't know why you think some of us are slagging teaching off or don't know what we're talking about when most people on here are teachers, training to be teachers or have some vested interest in education.

Anyway, back on topic, has there been any more information since?

killbillvol2

Nope. Still can't find a copy of the report on the DES "website".

Had the delightful experience of bumping into our local inspector on Tuesday morning. The personality transplant hasn't worked yet again bless her. She couldn't tell me where I could get a copy of the report either. She refused to say whether or not she'd been involved.

Almost all DES inspectors have been teachers. They've all stopped being teachers. I'll leave it to your imagination why you'd leave the classroom to go into a job where you're going to be at best not trusted and at worst, despised, on a daily basis.

Unless of course you've been despised on a daily basis as a teacher. Or you can't hack the classroom. Or you want shorter holidays. Or you're a ^%++".

These are the people who produced this invisible report based on observing one lesson. (I've spoken to 5 of that year's graduates who were inspected by DES inspectors and none of the inspectors even stayed for a full lesson!).

Enough said.

Trotter

Here it is.. the greatest of rubbish.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/insp_learning_to_teach.pdf

killbillvol2

Thanks for that, I think. On an initial skim-reading of it two things stood out for me:

The Indo cherry-picked some negative aspects of the report (no surprise there).
Some of the weaknesses identified really make me wonder what sort of world some of these people live in.
For example, Catering for individual differences was an area of weakness for a majority of the students. Fewer than
one in three were rated excellent, very good or good in this aspect of their work.
These students had spent a few days in the particular class and were expected to have an in-depth knowledge of the kids' individual differences? What a crock!