anyone else feel out of their dept?

JC 2K3

md99 wrote:

There may be the same points, but with the sciences/maths subjects it's a hell of a lot easier to get them than with the business/etc subjects.....

Look at the grade distribution stats... for example, chemistry and physics are extremely high compared to the likes of Home Ec and Art..

I don't understand this. There's thousands failing honours or taking pass maths right now. And the reason Chemistry and Physics are higher is probably to do with the fact that far less people do them. No bias. Business, for example, has a reputation for being ridiculously easy. Compare that to, say, Physics, which is said to be very hard by many who do it.

PurpleFistMixer

I think they may be taking their statistics from the percentage of As etc. rates... wherein subjects such as Russian have 68% or so, and Art has.. 1%? Something like that.

JC 2K3

^Indeed, but you have to look at the amount of students taking the subjects in question. People taking science subjects do so generally because they interest them and they know they can do well, students who wasnt to pick easy subjects/without a clue what subjects to pick tend to pick Business etc. More people + possibility of less interest in the subject by those who take it = lower percentage of As.

md99

JC 2K3 wrote:

^Indeed, but you have to look at the amount of students taking the subjects in question. People taking science subjects do so generally because they interest them and they know they can do well, students who wasnt to pick easy subjects/without a clue what subjects to pick tend to pick Business etc. More people + possibility of less interest in the subject by those who take it = lower percentage of As.

In THEORY, yes, but....

Have you examined the statistics closely? As far as I know, the statistics are set in such a way for a reason.. can't verify this, but I'm told that as the govt. wishes to promote jobs in the science sector, it allows more high grades in it be relased than many other jobs...

Aside from Accounting, the business subjects are far lower than the science subjects for high grades..

Donald-Duck

md99 wrote:

In THEORY, yes, but....

Have you examined the statistics closely? As far as I know, the statistics are set in such a way for a reason.. can't verify this, but I'm told that as the govt. wishes to promote jobs in the science sector, it allows more high grades in it be relased than many other jobs...

Aside from Accounting, the business subjects are far lower than the science subjects for high grades..

Business has a reputation for being taken by people who want easy marks, and hence that id displayed in the results. I'm pretty sure about 10times as much people do business as Physics or Chemistry every year. If a minority do a subject, the A rate will often be higher because its more likely to be taken by people who have an interest in it

JC 2K3

md99 wrote:

In THEORY, yes, but....

Have you examined the statistics closely? As far as I know, the statistics are set in such a way for a reason.. can't verify this, but I'm told that as the govt. wishes to promote jobs in the science sector, it allows more high grades in it be relased than many other jobs...

Aside from Accounting, the business subjects are far lower than the science subjects for high grades..

lol, conspiriacy theories eh?

The fact Accounting is an exception shows the lack of bias and backs up my theory. Accounting isn't a subject someone not able to do well in is going to take.

And yes, the government is pushing to get more people to work in the science sector, but it doesn't mean the course is any easier.

You can talk about only a certain amount of A grades being released for each subect etc. which, what I think you mean by it, is that a couple of students getting high Bs get bumped up to As. But the fact still remains that if you work hard you'll get your A, regardless of subject. And as mentined before, it's considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject.

md99

JC 2K3 wrote:

But the fact still remains that if you work hard you'll get your A, regardless of subject. And as mentined before, it's considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject.

I hope you're right... .*crosses fingers*
I'm sure I'll have an A knowledge of Home Ec and Pass Irish, but will that reflect my results I wonder??

Bearing in mind the A1 rate in O/L Irish is less than 1%!!!!! :mad: but ce n'est pa la mort du petit cheval, i spose

enda1

I think people do science subjects by choice and business subjects by default. In my school there was little subject choice: two languages, no economics, engineering, woodwork, home economics etc. etc. The.. stupid people to be honest, all did business (im not saying the people who did business were all stupid ). Some did history or geography too. Then biology usually. Point being none f them did physics, chemistry or higher maths.

Look at a subject like applied maths. No one in their right mind will do a subject like that unless they excel in maths and the results prove that. If every student in the country was forced to do every subject at the higher level, id say the worst average result , just looking at the sciences, businesses, geog and history, would be in applied maths, followed closely by maths and then physics and chemistry. Still though if id had to do business i'd have found it harder that physics applied maths or maths. Then again everyone is different.

AdMMM

And yes, the government is pushing to get more people to work in the science sector, but it doesn't mean the course is any easier.

They realised that an interest in Science is better to be formed sooner rather than later. As a result, they made the JC Science course much more accessible to students in an attempt to stimulate an interest in it and therefore increase the uptake of the sciences for the senior cycle. Also, don't use the word "easier", courses are never made easier, instead they are made more "accessible" and "user-friendly".

But the fact still remains that if you work hard you'll get your A, regardless of subject. And as mentined before, it's considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject.

It depends on whether or not you have an aptitude for that subject. Different people excel at different subjects/professions. For example, no matter how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to get an A in art. Why? Because even stick figures are beyond my feeble and prehistoric artistic skills! On that note, there are those who can produce picture-esque landscapes with their eyes closed. Why? Because they have an aptitude for drawing. Just because "makey uppey" subjects like Business come naturally to you, it doesn't mean it will come naturally to others and therefore it isn't "considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject."

JC 2K3

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Also, don't use the word "easier", courses are never made easier, instead they are made more "accessible" and "user-friendly".

pfft, that's a load of bollocks. A subject being less accessible or user friendly is what makes it hard.

|.Murderer.| wrote:

It depends on whether or not you have an aptitude for that subject. Different people excel at different subjects/professions. For example, no matter how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to get an A in art. Why? Because even stick figures are beyond my feeble and prehistoric artistic skills! On that note, there are those who can produce picture-esque landscapes with their eyes closed. Why? Because they have an aptitude for drawing. Just because "makey uppey" subjects like Business come naturally to you, it doesn't mean it will come naturally to others and therefore it isn't "considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject."

People have different aptitudes for different things, but academically all that matters is logic, creativity or rote-learning. Anyone can rote learn but not everyone is logical or creative. Business is heavily based on rote learning and not hard to understand, therefore it is generally easier than other subjects.

mateo

|.Murderer.| wrote:

They realised that an interest in Science is better to be formed sooner rather than later. As a result, they made the JC Science course much more accessible to students in an attempt to stimulate an interest in it and therefore increase the uptake of the sciences for the senior cycle. Also, don't use the word "easier", courses are never made easier, instead they are made more "accessible" and "user-friendly".



It depends on whether or not you have an aptitude for that subject. Different people excel at different subjects/professions. For example, no matter how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to get an A in art. Why? Because even stick figures are beyond my feeble and prehistoric artistic skills! On that note, there are those who can produce picture-esque landscapes with their eyes closed. Why? Because they have an aptitude for drawing. Just because "makey uppey" subjects like Business come naturally to you, it doesn't mean it will come naturally to others and therefore it isn't "considerably easier to earn an A in Business than a science subject."

True, which makes me so angry that I have to do Maths. I'm not good at it, why should I have to do it? :mad:

JC 2K3

mateo wrote:

True, which makes me so angry that I have to do Maths. I'm not good at it, why should I have to do it? :mad:

A D3 in pass Maths should hardly be hard to attain. Why the anger?

mateo

JC 2K3 wrote:

A D3 in pass Maths should hardly be hard to attain. Why the anger?

Well it is hard to attain!

JC 2K3

I can't see how, after 14 years of learning maths, that it could be really that difficult.

But in any case, basic maths is a necessary life skill and it's essential that it stays a compulsory LC subject.

Look at it this way, if you weren't forced to do it you might have no aptitude for maths at all, which could severely hinder you in later life

PurpleFistMixer

Some people are just not good at maths. You've said it yourself, "not everyone is logical"!

JC 2K3

I know, which is why many do pass maths. But a D3 in pass maths is not asking much tbh.

AdMMM

Anyone can rote learn but not everyone is logical or creative. Business is heavily based on rote learning and not hard to understand, therefore it is generally easier than other subjects.

Once again, that's your prerogative. You are speaking from your experience of finding it easy to understand. Regarding your claim that anyone can rote learn, I have to disagree - some people could read something and absorb it all straight away while others may experience great difficulty in trying to learn a plethora of definitions. The point I'm trying to make, and the one you're being very ignorant of, is that the reason you find Business easy to understand is because you're able to learn what is required. Other's aren't able to do that and if someone finds it difficult to learn something then you can safely say that it's hard to understand (for them).

pfft, that's a load of bollocks. A subject being less accessible or user friendly is what makes it hard.

You must have misunderstood me. I was merely trying to say that the DES will never admit to making a course easier, but you'll find that every syllabus revision is geared towards making the affected course more accessible to the students.

A D3 in pass Maths should hardly be hard to attain. Why the anger?

Once again, that's merely your prerogative. You said it yourself, all that matters academically is logic, creativity and the ability to aborb information. You also said that not everyone is logically minded so you pretty much answered your own question unless of course you somehow think that being creative will help you with Maths...

Look at it this way, if you weren't forced to do it you might have no aptitude for maths at all, which could severely hinder you in later life

You don't develop an aptitude for a certain subject, it either comes naturally to you, or it doesn't.

bikeman1

I think that it is fair to say that getting at least a D3 in Ordinary Maths is achievable if you put in any sort of effort. If you just sit there and say Im not good at maths and say im never going to understand it. Then you are on the right track to failing.

Ordinary level subjects are designed for people who have a difficulty with a subject, and the examiner wants to give you marks, so a D3 is well within anyones reach if they put a bit of effort in. Also any less Maths skills than a D3 in Ordinary is very very basic and you will need the skills in life.

JC 2K3

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Once again, that's your prerogative. You are speaking from your experience of finding it easy to understand. Regarding your claim that anyone can rote learn, I have to disagree - some people could read something and absorb it all straight away while others may experience great difficulty in trying to learn a plethora of definitions. The point I'm trying to make, and the one you're being very ignorant of, is that the reason you find Business easy to understand is because you're able to learn what is required. Other's aren't able to do that and if someone finds it difficult to learn something then you can safely say that it's hard to understand (for them).

I hate rote learning, yet I sit down and do it. Most who find it "hard" simply don't bother putting the time in

And I don't even do business, yet anyone I ask about it says it's very easy, yet most I ask about physics find it difficult.

My theory, which I'm sure many will agree with me on: Ability to rote learn is a more prevalent charaterisitic in students than ability to think logically or creatively, hence most students finding subjects like Business easier than Physics.

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Once again, that's merely your prerogative. You said it yourself, all that matters academically is logic, creativity and the ability to aborb information. You also said that not everyone is logically minded so you pretty much answered your own question unless of course you somehow think that being creative will help you with Maths...

Firstly, being creative is very important in maths. Maybe not LC maths, but concepts like differentiation or the MacLaurin Series are some of the most creative feats of the human imagination I've ever come across.

Secondly, ok, some people find maths hard, but a D3 in pass maths in order to be accepted to college is hardly much to ask. Unless the person just wasn't motivated and refused to apply themselves or had a bad learning disability it simply isn't too hard to attain.

|.Murderer.| wrote:

You don't develop an aptitude for a certain subject, it either comes naturally to you, or it doesn't.

Not true. That's a defeatist attitude which is the reason why people failing and doing ordinary level Maths has increased steadily over the last decade or so. Just because a subject might come to a student very quickly doesn't mean others can't become as good with a little more work. I used to be crap at LC history, getting Ds in tests last year. However, having figured out how to study it more effectively by making better notes and write essays better by studying the marking scheme I've started to get Bs and As and I've done a good mock exam. I'm sure I could become good at Art if I practised a lot. Just because some people have amazing artistic talent from an early age doesn't mean anyone else couldn't become very good at art with a lot of practice.

md99

JC 2K3 wrote:

My theory, which I'm sure many will agree with me on: Ability to rote learn is a more prevalent charaterisitic in students than ability to think logically or creatively, hence most students finding subjects like Business easier than Physics.

I agree, but I think rote learning is very important. While it takes a lot of time, it shows that the student really WANTS a good grade in the subject and they are rewarded accordingly...

An average student may want an A in Business, and may achieve it with the time put in.
This can't be said of say, English... A student can study English 24/7 and an A is still far from guaranteed...

If a student can pull most of his/her points from rote learning subjects, ie History, Business etc... Fair play to them. They're getting the points the best way they can, even if it takes a lot of time..

That said, subjects such as French and Maths are influenced more by practice than rote learning. Even with many 'rote' subjects, a high degree of natural intellect is usually essential to score highly..

JC 2K3

Yeah I'd agree with all of that.

md99

I'm glad, also glad it came out right as I was rather intoxicated when I wrote it!

I think if someone picks just the right mix for them, they could pull very high points purely on rote subjects... And say drop back in their weak ones.

That said, I wouldn't like to be that student! I've only two 'rote's myself, Home Ec and Economics, and I don't feel at all right calling Econ one...

There may be a bit of rote learning in it (most of which never comes up!) but there's far more theory and understanding.... A student with no understanding of the concepts (which can take a while) would find a lot of trouble breezing into a B or A... That said a B and A are very achievable with not too much work and a good understanding.