Do Muslims to this day think that marrying children is acceptable?

the_new_mr

On the moderation issue:
Rule #1 is there for a reason. I can't tell whether or not the OP intended to load the question. It seems that may well have been the case but only God knows the intention of the poster. Jakkass, a post like yours (before being edited) would have gotten you banned. After reading your subsequent posts, I guess you deserve the benefit of the doubt. I would suggest, if your intentions are indeed sincere, that you phrase your questions more intelligently leaving less room for misunderstanding in the future.

If, on the other hand, your intentions were not sincere then I appeal to your human sense of honesty and ask you not to pretend to be really interested in Islam whilst making accusations.

On the topic of the thread:
Most of the points have already been discussed (albeit in brief in some areas). Was the marriage consummated when Aisha was 9, 15 or 19? The truth is that we will never know in this lifetime. There are too many conflicting reports and too many different opinions amongst scholars. I take comfort in the knowledge that the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) would never do anything that God wouldn't approve of and God wouldn't approve of anything unless it was okay (obviously).

That last sentence might not do for a non-Muslim. But if you are a non-Muslim and are sincerely asking questions about Islam then I would suggest that you just accept that there's no way of knowing for sure what her age at consummation was but assume that all was okay and move on from there.

And to further add to the importance of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) that InFront was talking about. Aisha has transmitted more hadith (traditions/sayings of the Prophet) than anyone else.

I'd be happy to elaborate any further if required.

philologos

the_new_mr wrote:

On the moderation issue:
Rule #1 is there for a reason. I can't tell whether or not the OP intended to load the question. It seems that may well have been the case but only God knows the intention of the poster. Jakkass, a post like yours (before being edited) would have gotten you banned. After reading your subsequent posts, I guess you deserve the benefit of the doubt. I would suggest, if your intentions are indeed sincere, that you phrase your questions more intelligently leaving less room for misunderstanding in the future.

As I have mentioned throughout this thread, this is a genuine question, that wasn't meant to offend. To be honest with you it would be rediculously sad to post on Islam if you want to offend people. To be honest with you as I've already claimed, I have bought an english translation of the Qu'ran to read it and get a further understanding on Islam. Actually infact, could someone recommend a hadith as well?
Also I wouldn't get offended if someone asked is incest acceptable to this day in Christianity or Judaism because of Lot and his daughters but mind you that would be a stupid question as it is condemned in Leviticus. But I haven't been able to find anything that condemns having child wives, that is the reason why the question arose in the first place following what I read about Ai'sha
Also my interest in the Arab - American / British / Israeli conflict interests me a lot and there has been a serious amount of bad press for Muslims across the world. This is why I want to give myself a better understanding of the Arab world and the Islamic way of life. I infact want to travel there after I graduate from university. That has partially fuelled my interest in Islam. So theres the honesty, should you want it.

wes

Jakkass wrote:

As I have mentioned throughout this thread, this is a genuine question, that wasn't meant to offend. To be honest with you it would be rediculously sad to post on Islam if you want to offend people. To be honest with you as I've already claimed, I have bought an english translation of the Qu'ran to read it and get a further understanding on Islam. Actually infact, could someone recommend a hadith as well?
Also I wouldn't get offended if someone asked is incest acceptable to this day in Christianity of Judaism because of Lot and his daughters but mind you that would be a stupid question as it is condemned in Leviticus. But I haven't been able to find anything that condemns having child wives, that is the reason why the question arose in the first place following what I read about Ai'sha

Well to be fair your question has been answered by people who pointed the legal age for people getting married in Muslim countries (which vary to a degree) and I don't think you need to defend yourself. I am sure your question was genuine curiosity.

Wibbs

the_new_mr wrote:

On the topic of the thread:
Most of the points have already been discussed (albeit in brief in some areas). Was the marriage consummated when Aisha was 9, 15 or 19? The truth is that we will never know in this lifetime. There are too many conflicting reports and too many different opinions amongst scholars.

Well she says herself she was that age and she seems to be considered a large and reliable transmitter of Hadeeth(as you point out).

I take comfort in the knowledge that the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) would never do anything that God wouldn't approve of and God wouldn't approve of anything unless it was okay (obviously)

Fair play to your faith I must say.

But if you are a non-Muslim and are sincerely asking questions about Islam then I would suggest that you just accept that there's no way of knowing for sure what her age at consummation was but assume that all was okay and move on from there.

I honestly do see where you're coming from on this, but as a non Muslim I don't have that faith about Mohamed and hence sincerely or not the question is there. Uncomfortable though it may be. It seems awfully close to the idea of if you want to know about Islam (at least some parts of it)leave your critical faculties at the door and come on in.

Also you say there there may be no way of knowing, but numerous otherwise recognised as reliable hadeeth quite clearly give her age at marriage, including ones she herself transmitted, so where's the no way of knowing? If something that appears to have been reported many times in hadeeth is unsafe what about the things that are not as reported, yet adhered to by Muslims? It's coming down to the faith in Mohammed himself as a moral person, not what is written. Surely if you dismiss one thing because it's uncomfortable nowadays and say "well we've no way of knowing" then you may as well throw the lot out and become a Quran only Muslim.

In the end this is coming down to faith for the faithful, moral relativism for the liberal and the quizzical absolutism of the non believer. As such it's likely to be a circular argument. I can see similar with regard to the womens rights, slavery and violence aspects touched on before(though we didn't get into slavery as much.

the_new_mr

Jakkass wrote:

To be honest with you it would be rediculously sad to post on Islam if you want to offend people.

I agree and yet there are people that do it.

Jakkass wrote:

Actually infact, could someone recommend a hadith as well?

A hadith is a small piece of text. It can take anywhere from 1 to 15 minutes to read. Usually, when reading up on the subject of Islam, a the author would tend to put a hadith relevant to the subject at hand. If you just want to read through them then I think you'll find the resources thread a good place to start. The only thing about hadith is that different hadith have varying levels of authenticity so not all are considered true. It's a large subject really but that's the gist of it.

Wibbs wrote:

Well she says herself she was that age and she seems to be considered a large and reliable transmitter of Hadeeth(as you point out).

Yes but what I was saying was that there are a number of scholars that differ on the subject based on the fact that one hadith says this and another says that etc etc. Basically, the point is that either one set or both sets of hadith are unauthentic.

Wibbs wrote:

I honestly do see where you're coming from on this, but as a non Muslim I don't have that faith about Mohamed and hence sincerely or not the question is there. Uncomfortable though it may be. It seems awfully close to the idea of if you want to know about Islam (at least some parts of it)leave your critical faculties at the door and come on in.

I see your point there obviously. I'm not saying that anyone should "leave their critical faculties at the door". All I'm saying is that as long as you can't get a definite answer on the subject then you might as well move on and, for serious want of a better phrase, give Islam the benefit of the doubt as it were.

Wibbs wrote:

Also you say there there may be no way of knowing, but numerous otherwise recognised as reliable hadeeth quite clearly give her age at marriage, including ones she herself transmitted, so where's the no way of knowing?

As I mentioned above.

Wibbs wrote:

If something that appears to have been reported many times in hadeeth is unsafe what about the things that are not as reported, yet adhered to by Muslims? It's coming down to the faith in Mohammed himself as a moral person, not what is written. Surely if you dismiss one thing because it's uncomfortable nowadays and say "well we've no way of knowing" then you may as well throw the lot out and become a Quran only Muslim.

Well, I'll be honest with you. After doing a good bit of reading, I started to wonder about this idea of how much to accept hadith. I did a good bit of research on the subject and in the end, I came to the conclusion that if some hadith which have scientific knowledge behind them came through then that means that some authentic hadith have made it through.

The heart is a good judge. That doesn't automatically mean that each individual can just judge for themselves whether or not a hadith is authentic as a certain amount of research may be needed.

Think I've rambled on a bit too much already. Hope I haven't said anything incorrect. May God forgive me if I have.

Wibbs wrote:

As such it's likely to be a circular argument.

I could see that happening myself

Wibbs wrote:

though we didn't get into slavery as much

I promise to eventually get that chapter explaining how slavery was phased out up for you some time Wibbs.

Wibbs

the_new_mr wrote:

I see your point there obviously. I'm not saying that anyone should "leave their critical faculties at the door". All I'm saying is that as long as you can't get a definite answer on the subject then you might as well move on and, for serious want of a better phrase, give Islam the benefit of the doubt as it were.

I'll be honest here, that's difficult for a non believer, at least this one. While I can generally give people the benefit of the doubt I have far more difficulty with doctrine.

Well, I'll be honest with you. After doing a good bit of reading, I started to wonder about this idea of how much to accept hadith. I did a good bit of research on the subject and in the end, I came to the conclusion that if some hadith which have scientific knowledge behind them came through then that means that some authentic hadith have made it through.

Scientific knowledge? Not that old story again. Right you. Outside now. Fisticuffs I tells ya! Next it'll be some reference to Star Wars, which we'll both get. Just watch. You'll see. Nerds the pair of us. Hey it's late, it's a Saturday night, I'm Irish and I'm sober. I'm halfway to Mecca as it is

The heart is a good judge.

Even an old cynic like me hopes that's true. At least sometimes.

Think I've rambled on a bit too much already.

Well if I said anything about that, Hobbes would be rightfully quick with the phrase "pot calling the kettle black"..

Hope I haven't said anything incorrect. May God forgive me if I have.

If your God is out there, I think at this stage he's forgiven you for more than you think as a moderator of this forum. If He exists then he's the ultimate moderator so he knows exactly the trouble you may have(though I seem to remember his banning protocol involves boils and other afflictions. Actually I'm starting to feel itchy...).

I could see that happening myself

I think Mr. Stevie Wonder could spot that one in fairness.:)

I promise to eventually get that chapter explaining how slavery was phased out up for you some time Wibbs.

I await your post with eagerness. But you know how it'll end up. You'll post your facts, others will reply and we'll end up back in the circular argument. At some point we'll be back to yoda... This is when you realise that if Allah exists he has a very well honed sense of humour.

the_new_mr

Wibbs wrote:

While I can generally give people the benefit of the doubt I have far more difficulty with doctrine.

That's your choice. It's a free world.

Wibbs wrote:

Scientific knowledge? Not that old story again. Right you. Outside now. Fisticuffs I tells ya!

Are we supposed to slap each other's faces with some dodgy looking white gloves or something?

Anyway, here is one example. The text below the hadith is well worth the read as well.

And the following is an extract from another site.

The Prophetic traditions state: "When forty -two nights have passed over the conceptus, Allah sends an Angel to it, who shapes it, makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says O Lord! is it male or female? And your Lord decides what He wishes and then the angel records it." This accurate information gives the correct time for the recognisable growth of the features described, and the sex of the fetus can not be definitely determined until just after forty-two days. This was not known until the invention of powerful microscopes only decades ago.

Wibbs wrote:

Next it'll be some reference to Star Wars, which we'll both get. Just watch. You'll see. Nerds the pair of us.

Do you have to be a nerd to enjoy Star Wars? An enjoyable film it is. Nerd-like qualities, needed they are not.

Wibbs wrote:

Hey it's late, it's a Saturday night, I'm Irish and I'm sober. I'm halfway to Mecca as it is

Wibbs wrote:

(though I seem to remember his banning protocol involves boils and other afflictions. Actually I'm starting to feel itchy...)
....
At some point we'll be back to yoda... This is when you realise that if Allah exists he has a very well honed sense of humour.

I know you intended this as humour but please refrain from including God in jokes. This is not because Muslims don't have a sense of humour. It's just that joking about God (or His messengers, His angels, His books etc) is where we would draw the line. I think you can understand that.

Wibbs wrote:

I await your post with eagerness. But you know how it'll end up. You'll post your facts, others will reply and we'll end up back in the circular argument.

Yeah, I know. It's more than likely. But ya never know! You just might see the logic

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

Anyway, here is one example. The text below the hadith is well worth the read as well.

And the following is an extract from another site.

The Prophetic traditions state: "When forty -two nights have passed over the conceptus, Allah sends an Angel to it, who shapes it, makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says O Lord! is it male or female? And your Lord decides what He wishes and then the angel records it." This accurate information gives the correct time for the recognisable growth of the features described, and the sex of the fetus can not be definitely determined until just after forty-two days. This was not known until the invention of powerful microscopes only decades ago.

I should just pass this one by, because its not as if I'm a biologist. But are we seriously suggesting that every foetus is individually sculpted by an Angel? Also, what's this stuff about sex being determined by God at 42 days? I thought that sex was determined by your chromosomes - which presumably is just determined by whatever is in the pot at the time of conception. (I even - dimly - thought sex was determined by the particular sperm that fertilised the egg.)

I know this scientific miracle business seems to mean a lot to some believers. But to the rest of us, its almost exactly illustrative of what we see as bad about theism.

Schuhart

Schuhart wrote:

(I even - dimly - thought sex was determined by the particular sperm that fertilised the egg.)

Indeed, I’m not dreaming.

A humans' sex is predetermined in the sperm gamete.

So the article on islamweb.net contains a claim contradicted by fact. Note also that the Hadith is suggesting that God decides sex at 42 days – not that this is when features become visible. This is simply bunkum. The Hadith does not contain a miracle. It contains a mistake – something we now know not to be true, but which would have been beyond the knowledge of the author of that Hadith.

the_new_mr

I see your point Schuhart. I already knew that the sex is determined at conception. I took it to mean that the Angel is asking God whether it will be male or female and God then tells him but according to the text as it is, it would appear that God decides after forty-two nights.

Actually, it just occurred to me now that it could be a mistranslation where the "and" just before "your Lord decides what He wishes" could be to do with the way sometimes an "and" in Arabic is providing additional information rather than an extention of the previous piece of information if you know what I mean? Kind of like the way some of the other Muslims on boards or other websites as well as myself might say "and God knows best". It's a direct translation of "Wa Allah 3lim" and is probably better translated as "God knows best" without the "and". In fact, I think I might use that from now on

Anyway, I'll have to track down the Arabic text in the meantime to see what I can get from that. Of course there's always the possibility that that particular hadeeth is unauthentic. There's still the first one I linked to. And this may add more explanation point.

By the way I didn't get that excerpt from islamweb.net

And I think I had linked to the following article before but it had since gone offline. I just found it again now in pdf format. It's a good read and well worth it and contains a serious amount of detail. Anyway, here it is.

mountainyman

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Age_of_Aisha

This is an interesting contribution. The core argument is that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong and as Muhammad was perfect he could not have had sex with a 9 year old.

Though the reasoning is somewhat meretricious in my opinion this is a good tack for Muslims to take.

Define perfect and attribute such conduct to Muhammad.

In a similar manner I believe that Christians should accept that their bible is flawed because if Jesus was the son of God he would have condemned slavery.

MM