There once was a man named Zumbo.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Before the CJB was drafted. Probably in the middle of the Dunne case.

And HOW exactly would you propose doing that????

The NARGC, according to their column in the Irish Shooters Digest, getting pretty bloody annoyed at FLAG claiming that FLAG got pistols back. I'm guessing from your post that they've reason to be getting annoyed.

Haven't seen the article so I cant comment on that.however note I said FLAG[D Keogh,not the organisation] & others,and as we all know it was a much avoided subject untill somone went and belled the cat,then everyone jumped on the bandwagon,or so it looked from down here.

That's unequivocal horse hockey CG. We're worse off than we were six years ago. What have we gotten?

Dunno about that.I am sitting here with a Glock in my safe,a SSG on the way,and an application in for a MAK 90 and 45 in the pipeline. You got what,a fancy air pistol?DAMN sight more than when I started shooting here 30 years ago,or ever belived would be back here in my lifetime.

Stuff that less than 0.5% of all shooters use

Then we had better be encouraging 99.5% to take up on the other stuff,for whatever reasons they want to.

.

What have we paid in return? Damn near everything. You might not see it now, but believe me, others do, and those that don't will be getting rude wake-up calls over the next few years when they find that even the bad old route through the high court is now blocked to them and the district court wants to go near ministerial or high level garda matters about as much as you want to give up target shooting.

Ok seeing the ol crystal ball is out.Could I have next Weds six numbers???:rolleyes:
Lets just say ,I am from Missouri on what might happen over the next few years.Hey,they are the people in the know if they think high level Garda matters should be sorted out in the DC,their problem.We are just the tax payers who want the law dealt with,if this is the route so be it.Let them deal with it.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

And HOW exactly would you propose doing that????

Gee, I don't know. Probably by picking up the phone and asking one of the lower level lads to meet up for coffee with one of our lower level lads and starting there.

note I said FLAG[D Keogh,not the organisation] & others

Yeah. It's the top billing for FLAG that's annoying the NARGC and people like Frank Brophy, who did all the work.

and as we all know it was a much avoided subject untill somone went and belled the cat,then everyone jumped on the bandwagon,or so it looked from down here.

From up here, it was a subject we all knew would go badly if we went through the courts, and that was openly stated in the '01 NRPAI AGM. We got told directly in '73 that we might win in the courts but they'd just bring in a new law. Now, we've won in the courts, and they've brought in a new law. Three guesses how this is all going to end up?

Dunno about that.I am sitting here with a Glock in my safe,a SSG on the way,and an application in for a MAK 90 and 45 in the pipeline.

Yeah, now. What'll you have this time next year when the restricted list is in place, every range in the country has to be certified and there are range inspectors with the same powers as custom officials in terms of unwarranted searches?

DAMN sight more than when I started shooting here 30 years ago,or ever belived would be back here in my lifetime.

Then you were overly pessimistic. Even before Dunne, most of us knew it was going to change, it was just the way it was going to change that had to be done right. And it wasn't.

Then we had better be encouraging 99.5% to take up on the other stuff,for whatever reasons they want to.

Good luck with that. Tell me, after all the time and effort and energy you put into fighting for your cert, how much did you put into promoting the sport for other people and how much will you be putting in in future? See, this is the end problem for us - we might be able to take on and win a court case or two, but all it represents is money and time and manpower and resources spent on a fight that could have been spent instead on coaching, range improvements, running matches, training, you know, the stuff we all wanted to do when we started all this?

Let them deal with it.

They will. By not touching it with a barge pole. The end result will be that there will be one guy who says if you get or don't get a licence now, and that'll be the DC judge, not the local super, who'll just ignore any and all applications because if he ignores you, then the law says that he is acting properly and that all applications will be deemed refused and you deemed to be notified, three months after your application, at which time you can go to the DC to appeal. The DC upholds the appeal or doesn't; either way the super's posterior is covered if something later goes wrong ("I dunno your honour, as I told the Tribunal earlier, I said no, but the local judge overruled me so it's not my fault he got the shotgun"). That's worse than before because now you're looking at the same deal you had with the super, only it's legally binding, you're delayed by 3 months to start with, and most reasonable people will be put off the whole process and will just walk away. And while the super's the same guy, the local DC judge varies depending on what day it is, so you've no idea if one district is more or less strict on licencing than another.
And for stuff on the restricted list, it goes to the commissioner who can set whatever rules he wants for you to follow for both initial applications and subsequent renewals, and he doesn't have to tell you all the rules either.

sidneyreilly

I think the 0.5% may be a bit out of date Sparks. Growing fast:D

Sparks

0.5% of 200,000 people is 1,000 people Sidney. Unless it's growing a lot faster than anyone knows about, I think that's a relatively safe bet. And last I heard, it was about half that by most estimates.
That's not to say it won't grow; I'd guess we'd see pistol equal rifle in a few years; but it's not even close yet.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Gee, I don't know. Probably by picking up the phone and asking one of the lower level lads to meet up for coffee with one of our lower level lads and starting there.

I think that was tried many a times on the more formal level of meeting for lunches etc,and it got precisely where???

Yeah. It's the top billing for FLAG that's annoying the NARGC and people like Frank Brophy, who did all the work.


From up here, it was a subject we all knew would go badly if we went through the courts, and that was openly stated in the '01 NRPAI AGM. We got told directly in '73 that we might win in the courts but they'd just bring in a new law. Now, we've won in the courts, and they've brought in a new law. Three guesses how this is all going to end up?

Yeah, now. What'll you have this time next year when the restricted list is in place, every range in the country has to be certified and there are range inspectors with the same powers as custom officials in terms of unwarranted searches?

More than likely still the same,and still shooting quite happily in my backyard.
Because realistically,I cant see the range gestapo being such a boogeyman that you make them out to be,orthem even employing enough people who will work to make this viable.

Then you were overly pessimistic. Even before Dunne, most of us knew it was going to change, it was just the way it was going to change that had to be done right. And it wasn't.

Well, being a pessimist means you are never disappointed .And who were "most of us".Sorry,but pre internet days and down here with us culchies,we dont and didnt get to hear much of anything of these weighty decisions taken up in de big city,quite frankly,I didnt exactly hear much dissent being raised when thiswas all afoot.Fill me in when and where?

Good luck with that. Tell me, after all the time and effort and energy you put into fighting for your cert, how much did you put into promoting the sport for other people and how much will you be putting in in future?

Do you mean on a personal level??Well, signed on another three people to be allowed to shoot on the land.[Must have a battallion of shotgunners and riflemen by now].Encouraged four other people who had never fired a handgun,and loved it after trying mine to apply for liscenses ,two of them big shot busisnessmen,who have some clout politically and moneywise here in town.To after meeting the Min of Defence,leaving him an open invitation to come out and actually fire one of the things without being worried about being slagged in the press.[Witnessed BTW ]
Or do you mean paying a fortune annually to organisations in Dublin that hold in Camera meetings with the DOJ ,reluctantly tell then that they did so to their members,when leaked,have agendas of appasement; meaning selling out other factions of the sport that is unliked,and sit around quietly for 30 odd years then when it happens play hurler in the ditch??No not really....sorry.Think getting bodies into the ranks is more important on a grassroots level..

See, this is the end problem for us - we might be able to take on and win a court case or two, but all it represents is money and time and manpower and resources spent on a fight that could have been spent instead on coaching, range improvements, running matches, training, you know, the stuff we all wanted to do when we started all this?

Maybe,you did mate.I wanted to be able to go out in my back 40 and pop a few cans,or paper or have a proper tool for deer hunting,or have a bit of choice in upgrading or down grading my collection,not become club charlie, remember a win sets the precedent in law,so not a total waste of time.

They will. By not touching it with a barge pole. The end result will be that there will be one guy who says if you get or don't get a licence now, and that'll be the DC judge, not the local super

,

Wether they like it or not they will have to as it is law!And is that so bad?An impartial hearing based on law,rather than on the bias of the local anti gun bigot???

who'll just ignore any and all applications because if he ignores you, then the law says that he is acting properly and that all applications will be deemed refused and you deemed to be notified, three months after your application, at which time you can go to the DC to appeal. The DC upholds the appeal or doesn't;

And that isnt better than,being dragged from pillar to post.Being pissed about for three odd years,having forms "lost":rolleyes: :rolleyes: having to restart the process.Being subjected to moveable goalposts at the whim of the Super??Sorry,I really dont see how?

either way the super's posterior is covered if something later goes wrong ("I dunno your honour, as I told the Tribunal earlier, I said no, but the local judge overruled me so it's not my fault he got the shotgun"). That's worse[/

I]

Well thats life isnt it?Everyone covers their butt and are rightly so entitled to do so.But not a "I doan like dem guns.An No One apart from me and de Branch should have dem,as ye are all a bunch of RA terrorists or sympatisers.So defore I am goin to be makin it as difficult as possible for dem civvillians to own anythin.High court law??Wats Da??I'm DE LAW here!!!"
Which unfortuneatly is how some supers think,you would get a better response from a hick town sherrif in Alabama on allowing a black pride march in his town!:rolleyes:

than before because now you're looking at the same deal you had with the super, only it's legally binding, you're delayed by 3 months to start with, and most reasonable people will be put off the whole process and will just walk away.

WELL,isnt that just Sooo SAD!!!! Three months is tooo long to wait these days for anything!! Damn I must be one stubborn,pig headed SOB then!!!:D If I can hold out for what I want.
By God,have we become a nation of "Me now" yussies.:) Bet if you had to wait 3months for a fitted kitchen that you wanted,we all would.

And while the super's the same guy, the local DC judge varies depending on what day it is, so you've no idea if one district is more or less strict on licencing than another.

Not really,you can ask for an adjournament to the time the local DCJ is back on the bench.So you can get a better judgement[no pun intended] as to who is in favour of the Gardai or not.

And for stuff on the restricted list, it goes to the commissioner who can set whatever rules he wants for you to follow for both initial applications and subsequent renewals, and he doesn't have to tell you all the rules either

Fine,traceability,ok if he says he wants XYZ done on security for my AK this year,and has to put it in writing,he gets that,but suddenly says no he meant ABC,three months later says it has to be DEF.I think any DCJ is going to say to him that [1] are you up for this job?
[2]Would you make up your mind on what you want for security on this mans house ,and please keep it consistent with every other decision you have made on the same type of weapon in the 26 counties.

To sum this up,we need accountability,consistency,and paper to prove decisions.This new untried system isnt by far the best,but INMHO a damn sight better than moving goalposts,a high court judical review,and an unaccountable Super.

Manic Moran

I am bemused by the suggestion that centrefire rifle-owners require more training. More people are killed by .22s than any other cartridge in the US, mainly because people don't associate those little rounds with anything like lethality and they get careless. I don't know about you guys, but I treat .22 firearms with the same practises as a 7.62mm. Tests are well and good, but let them make sense.

NTM

Sparks

More than likely still the same,and still shooting quite happily in my backyard.

Until you get caught. And then you're neck deep in smelly stuff and sinking fast, with the full weight of statute law pushing you under. And probably taking the club that signed off on your licence with you.

Because realistically,I cant see the range gestapo being such a boogeyman that you make them out to be,orthem even employing enough people who will work to make this viable.

Do you really think they'll spend £20,000 on a range standard and not use it?
And have you even looked at the threads on here about the Hilltop, RRPC and WTSC range rebuilds?
They're deadly serious about this CG.

Do you mean on a personal level??Well, signed on another three people to be allowed to shoot on the land.[Must have a battallion of shotgunners and riflemen by now].Encouraged four other people who had never fired a handgun,and loved it after trying mine to apply for liscenses ,two of them big shot busisnessmen,who have some clout politically and moneywise here in town.To after meeting the Min of Defence,leaving him an open invitation to come out and actually fire one of the things without being worried about being slagged in the press.[Witnessed BTW ]

Good man. Now that I can respect.

Wether they like it or not they will have to as it is law!And is that so bad?An impartial hearing based on law,rather than on the bias of the local anti gun bigot???

So you think Judges are more biased than Superintendents to give us what we want? Based on what, exactly?

And that isnt better than,being dragged from pillar to post.Being pissed about for three odd years,having forms "lost":rolleyes: :rolleyes: having to restart the process.Being subjected to moveable goalposts at the whim of the Super??Sorry,I really dont see how?

Because that's precisely where you're back to now. Your pistol on renewal next year will probably be on the restricted list, which means the commissioner grants or refuses it, which means you have to fill all the preconditions in the law plus whatever preconditions he drafts. And don't forget, he doesn't have to tell you all the preconditions for granting the licence that he thinks should apply.

I think any DCJ is going to say to him that [1] are you up for this job?
[2]Would you make up your mind on what you want for security on this mans house ,and please keep it consistent with every other decision you have made on the same type of weapon in the 26 counties.

No, they're not. And the reason they're not is that it was the Minister himself, in the Dail, who argued that the commissioner shouldn't have to divulge all the conditions for granting a licence. No DCJ is going to tell the Minister to get stuffed.

Sparks

Manic Moran wrote:

I am bemused by the suggestion that centrefire rifle-owners require more training.

Myself I'd agree with Veg though. Before the CJB I was suggesting something like a pilot's licence - you get your basic licence which lets you fly small single-engine aircraft during the day in good weather. Then you add ratings to it with additional training to let you do things like fly on instruments (meaning flying in bad weather), flying at night, flying more complex aircraft (twin-engine, jet engine, retractable undercarriage, etc, etc, etc) and you can get rated on different specific aircraft as well, all quite easily. Take the course, pass a theory and practical, get the ticket, and so long as you stay flying, it's yours for life. (Obviously if you stop flying for a decade, they want you to recertify, but that's just common sense).

A model like that would have been a good place to build from, I thought.

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

0.5% of 200,000 people is 1,000 people Sidney. Unless it's growing a lot faster than anyone knows about, I think that's a relatively safe bet. And last I heard, it was about half that by most estimates.
That's not to say it won't grow; I'd guess we'd see pistol equal rifle in a few years; but it's not even close yet.

Sorry Sparks, I was including + .28 fullbore rifles as well. Also .223

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Until you get caught. And then you're neck deep in smelly stuff and sinking fast, with the full weight of statute law pushing you under. And probably taking the club that signed off on your licence with you

.
Lets worry about when that is all up and running shall we???No point in eating next years apple crop until it is grown.

Do you really think they'll spend £20,000 on a range standard and not use it?
And have you even looked at the threads on here about the Hilltop, RRPC and WTSC range rebuilds?
They're deadly serious about this CG.

Deadly serious.And thats obviously what a range officer is intended to be.Not somone sneaking around after somone who pops a few caps in their back 40.
Thats IF it ever gets going,cos knowing Irish beauraccy,it will take them another five years what to decide what to have for dinner,never mind getting anything done in relation to their actual work.

So you think Judges are more biased than Superintendents to give us what we want? Based on what, exactly?

Depends on the judge doesn't it?Some of them down this part of the World actually hate the Gadai's guts!!![not libellous I hope.] Due to many times of run ins as lawyers with them over the years.

Because that's precisely where you're back to now. Your pistol on renewal next year will probably be on the restricted list, which means the commissioner grants or refuses it, which means you have to fill all the preconditions in the law plus whatever preconditions he drafts. And don't forget, he doesn't have to tell you all the preconditions for granting the licence that he thinks should apply.

See my point below on perverted and tainted law,unworkable and unenforceable by any court,on moral grounds alone from a DC to an EU court.

No, they're not. And the reason they're not is that it was the Minister himself, in the Dail, who argued that the commissioner shouldn't have to divulge all the conditions for granting a licence. No DCJ is going to tell the Minister to get stuffed.

[/QUOTE]
So that just shows what sort of an ass an ex barrister turns out to be when he arrives in the Dail.He should know that that kind of law is perverted and self non fulfilling,and wont stand a chance in a court of the land.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Lets worry about when that is all up and running shall we?

That strikes me as being pretty close to putting on your seat belt just before the accident.

Deadly serious.And thats obviously what a range officer is intended to be.Not someone sneaking around after someone who pops a few caps in their back 40.

It's not obviously what a range inspector is intended to be, it's obviously what you want a range inspector to be, and in case you've missed the past three or four decades, it's rare for what we want and what the DoJ wants to be the same thing.

Depends on the judge doesn't it?

Indeed. In the same way that it depends on the superintendent now. Which is why I'm saying that it's not an improvement.

See my point below on perverted and tainted law,unworkable and unenforceable by any court,on moral grounds alone from a DC to an EU court.

I hate to tell you this CG, but unless you have a spare chunk of change which you want to fire towards solicitors and barristers, you've not got a hope in hades of taking things that far. Not to mention that there's precedent in Ireland for this sort of ****e.

He should know that that kind of law is perverted and self non fulfilling,and wont stand a chance in a court of the land.

Like I said, that's time, money, manpower, and a rake of other things, all of which are in short supply and all of which would be better spent on developing the sport because while everyone digs into this fight with the powers that be, the sport is neglected. And if we've not copped by now to the fact that in this country you can't beat the dail using the courts, after the lesson for slow learners that the CJA2006 was, then we're all in trouble.

civdef

Oh look, endless quotes of quotes. This is great.

Sparks

Take out the quotes civ, and then try telling me the post is more readable.

civdef

I'm referring more to the mind-numbing format of picking each others posts apart point by point, rather than the use of the quotes.

Speaking on behalf of myself, reading it is like going to the dentist. I doubt I'm alone in this.

Sparks

With short posts like this one, you've only one point to address. With longer posts, there may be several points, and if you disagree with more than one, are you meant to just not say so? What CG is saying he's going to do, don't forget, is - or will be when he says he's planning on doing it - an illegal act.

civdef

Maybe I'm just old fashioned and prefer to see sentences and paragraphs constructed so as to achieve structure and readability. A lot of forums ban excessive quoting within a post, particularly when the post being quoted immediately precedes the post in question.

I really don't think it's necessary to individually quote each sentence before rebutting it.


By the way, I'm not trying to single Sparks out here, CG is doing the very same thing - and other posters have been guilty of it in the past.

Sparks

Don't go claiming oldfuddyduddyness as your domain just yet civ, I'm as happy with a dip pen as with a kinesis keyboard
But when using electronic communications like here, I've learnt over the past 14 years that you're trying to communicate through a very, very narrow channel. You lose body language, tone of voice, and basicly around about 90-95% of the typical amount of information you have when you're talking to someone face-to-face. But you know this.
The quoting is to put a sentence in context as much as is possible; I've always found it helps to prevent someone thinking I'm talking about something else. (It doesn't always prevent it, but it's better than most methods I've found).

civdef

Maybe so, but that doesn't stop it coming across as a pedantic and confrontational style of conducting a debate on a forum.

I'm not saying quotes don't have a place, but when overused they make people switch off.

Clare gunner

What CG is saying he's going to do, don't forget, is - or will be when he says he's planning on doing it - an illegal act.

And what henious crime am I about to comit now or in the future,o great Sparktoni,mystic seer of the future.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sparks,a word of friendly advice,You REALLY need to get out abit more in the World!
This world has thousands of illegal things happening every blooddy day,and people going around sqwaking that this and that is illegal or will be or should be or could be are classified as meddling busybodies who should mind their own busisness,who have nothing better to do,and are not taken seriously.Realityand life is not a perfect science lab.
Panicking about what should,could,would in the Irish gun laws is about as sensible as fighting the tide coming in.As you keep saying we are a minority and they can do with us as they like.So until somone shows up on my property with a badge,or writ or somthing and says he is whatever.I Will continue to shoot on my property,as I belive 99.9% of people will do on theirs and deal with the matter .Life is too short to be looking over ones shoulder to be worrying am I doing everything right.

Funnily enough,I was having a look at some old Guns Review mags last night.And lookee here!Didnt the UK shooters have the same nonsense with unaproved ranges and Range Officers back in the 80/90s???
Guess what?Same concerns came up about this BS,and guess what the RO concentrated on gun clubs or old MOD ranges.Funnily enough they had the same powers too.Yet noone individual at that time was done for an unapproved range in their backyard.
Nothing new under the Sun. quit worrying about tomrrow,deal with it as it happens,you could be dead tonight.And go shooting more often.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

And what henious crime am I about to comit now or in the future,o great Sparktoni,mystic seer of the future.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That'd be the one you openly declared intent of in a public forum.

Clare gunner, earlier wrote:

I'll take my chances Sparks,and actually on the day of it being becoming law I will have a major shoot on my unapproved range and anyone who knows me can go off and report it.If they dare.
Not going to be cowed by some diktat from Dublin.Until somone shows up waving a badge or whatever ,then I'll see what they have to say for themselves on this matter.

Clare gunner, now wrote:

So until somone shows up on my property with a badge,or writ or somthing and says he is whatever.I Will continue to shoot on my property

As to getting out more, time to be asking yourself CG - who are the people getting away with (figuratively speaking) murder in this state and why do they get away with it. The answer is always down to money and influence, and we have neither, and nor do you, or you wouldn't have had a two year wait for a licence. You try what you're talking about and get caught and not only will you end up in crap, so will a fair few other people. What you're talking about isn't just illegal, it's bloody inconsiderate of those "fellow shooters" you've mentioned from time to time.

Funnily enough,I was having a look at some old Guns Review mags last night.And lookee here!Didnt the UK shooters have the same nonsense with unaproved ranges and Range Officers back in the 80/90s???

Yeah. And a number of them got closed. There are fewer ranges in the UK today than there were at pretty much any time before the turn of this century, and more are closing all the time. Two are due to close in london later this year, for example, putting four or five clubs out of a range.

The only thing sticking your head in the sand is good for CG, is to give everyone else a good clear shot at your arse!

civdef

CG, given that at this stage your identity must be fairly clear to anyone who cared to go find out - is it wise to clearly announce an intent to do naughty things on a public forum.
That's the sort of thing that could impact negatively on future firearms cert applications, for example.

That struck me as well - CG, you almost seem to be issuing a challenge to the guards!

As to the quote thing - I personally find it very annoying as nit picking a sentence here or there often leads to the person missing the overall point.

How about a temporary ban on more then, say, two quotes per reply, and see how that works out.

I have often read threads here which got very mixed up due to people only dealing with paragraphs and not the point.

Manic Moran

Then you just get a 'normal' post with paragraphs that all begin with "With reference to your point about..."

Or multiple posts with two huge quotations...

I've no problem with the current system. Usually boards that have limitations on excessive quoting refers to the practise of quoting an entire post (or image set) when addressing only a portion of that post.

NTM

SteveS

Sparks wrote:

And by the way, I don't care what Zumbo said, it's not as important as what happened afterwards and what it means for shooting as a whole. If you want to ever say that all shooters should pull together, then you can't ever do what was done to him by his own. Nor can you agree with it, nor can you support it, nor can you do anything but defend him.

I think this whole thing centers on what Mr. Zumbo said. He could have said, "I don't really care for the AR or AK as a hunting rifle," or even, "Hunting with an AR or AK may protray a negative image." There may have been some responses on his blog or a link to hunting BB, but there wouldn't have been near the attention as he got when he referred to them as terrorist rifles and called for a ban on their use in hunting.

I have seen some figures that suggest there are over 80 million gun owners in the US. There are approximately 12 to 14 million hunters, most of these being gun hunters, though some are only bow hunters. The concept of sporting arms is relatively recent. Up until the mid-20th century, many hunters used surplus army rifles and the current best-seller, the .30-06, was a military round.

A popular tactic among some gun control groups has been to gradually pass legislation by starting off with certain firearms. One approach has been to ally themselves with hunters by saying, "your guns are ok and no one needs to hunt with an AK." Both Kerry and Clinton did photo ops bird hunting. To an extent, this has worked, in that some hunters have supported some gun control measures.

In my eyes, this is, and has been, a big source of problems between hunters and non-hunting gun owners. Other gun-owners view these hunters as naive and short-sighted, willing to sell out other gun owners, as long as they can keep their guns. They also believe that politicans will turn on hunters once they have the public used to more gun control. Hunters view some gun owners as paranoid, rambo wanna-be's that want to hunt with machine guns. The anti-gun groups and politicians have played on these sentiments for political gain.

Like many in the US, I became interested in guns through hunting. Currently, most of my guns are of the 'non-hunting' variety, though I still hunt every year. This divide between hunters and non-hunting gun owners has always bothered me. I get frustrated at the hunters that aren't willing to see that hunting guns are subject to future bans. I get equally frustrated at gun owners that refer to hunters as 'Fudds' (as in Elmer Fudd) and don't realize that most support all different kinds of shooting and can be easily educated.

The NRA has made a big push to get the support of hunters and state gun rights groups have been big supporters of hunting. Hunting groups have also been big supporters of concealed carry legislation and other non-hunting gun issues. Both groups have found a lot of common ground...then Zumbo steps in.

Unlike many of his critics, I have been reading Jim Zumbo for years. I like his writing and also watched his TV show. I was shocked on many levels. I was angered that he would say something so stupid and was angered that he hurt years of progress between hunters and gun owners. The truth is that both groups need each other and this just played into some people's sterotype of the selfish hunter.

I don't know about over there, but hunters here are opinionated and ornery (myself included). They will debate the ethics of baiting, tree stands, food plots, scopes, etc. At the end of the day, most will still be friends and will still support each other. Zumbo's caustic remarks and calls for a ban went beyond a mere difference of opinion and echoed what some pro-gun control groups have been saying for years.

Clare gunner

Both Kerry and Clinton did photo ops bird hunting. To an extent, this has worked, in that some hunters have supported some gun control measures

.

Did you see the gun Klintoon were photo oped with?
Benelli m90 TACTICAL mod.The evil black pistol gripped types.Either somone had a wit and slipped them into the photo ops to screw the campain.Or they really didnt know what they were up to going to be using.Well if you belived Clinton was a duck hunter...or Kerry a bird hunter...I'd want to see Bill shoot it ,bring it back for Hillary to pluck and gut it,and Chelsea to eat it with the parents,without any of them needing therapy.:D

Clare gunner

[[OK lets try this ref lark.
With ref to Sparks first point.
I STAND BY IT!!!!And will do so.As I think some people are obviously **** scared of everything that might ,could ,might would happen.And have no concept of how things really work in the really real world of Ireland.
I have heard this type of nonsense soo many times on everything from planning law to security industry legislation,to the selling of ones car.It looks good in a PR blurb,gets names in papers,but when the poor sods have to actually go out and do it no one knows what,who or where they are supposed to be doing!!!It takes blooddy forever for things to work over here.We DO NOT have a very efficent beuraccy in things that count,like issueing drivers liscenses or running our hospitals.So WHY does everyone think this will be a well oiled,ruthless BATFE like operation ready to pounce on every poor sod who spent Sunday afternoon popping cans the first Sunday after it become law???????
Oh ,andBTW Sparks who will end in crap???Reminding you of your own adage on libel on a public forum.
Second point
Gee Sparks,people get away without driving without their car tax up to date,for up to 3 months,no insurance,talking on the mobile phone,burning rubbish in their back yards,no TV liscense, smoking again in the pubs when it is after hour locals,raping our landscape and illegal planning permission,tax diddling etc etc ad nauseum and how many are actually banged up for it??
No I might have not have political clout,but I have somthing you obviously dont have ....Patience and determination.Get out of your lab college and air rifle range Sonny ,and live a little bit what I have like 23 odd more years and then come talk to me about life...cos you sure as Hell are in NO position to tell me anything about it!!!:mad:
Personal comments ended here.

Point 3 Ranges UK
yes indeedly.They were EX MOD ranges.That the MOD decided were unsuitable for further use,a danger to the public, etc etc.Or were in development areas or conurbations.Yes ,clubs were closed indeed but that was a bad thing.But it WAS MOD property that clubs were leasing.



Hoo humm the old ostrich comment....OK look this is my FINAL word on this range stuff[applause from all and sundry:D ]
IF you want to belive that the day this is made law or ever.That there will be an efficent,well cordinated,Gestapo like organisation that will storm your house at night,kicking in your doors,dragging you and your wife and kids out in handcuffs, shooting your dog,chucking you face down on your lawn with a HK stuck behind you head,while they demolish your property looking for evidence of an illegal range while RTE films all this while Charlie Bird does a serious face voice over,you are living in an Ireland that is alien to me and to 100% of the normal day to day life.You must be living in CA ,Iran or Nth Korea.

IF,however you belive that with our current govts employment rate of civvie servants,they [1] actually employ sufficent people,[2] with no knowledge of what they are actually looking for[as it states they will need no qualifications]they will have to be trained somwhat,fed waterd,paid,given cars,offices,tea urns, pensions etc,and everything else a govt employee needs to work in an office,not to mind in the wilds.Or want to face somthing as euuuch people who actually USE guns???OMG they surely eat their children and live in caravans and have bad teeth ???I have to be paid more money for this.
[3] Will actually want to work when most of us go shooting.IE weekends
[4]Will actually want to go and face people with guns,and get the Garda to escort them.Another task I'm sure the Gardai will love to do or want to do as it will be foisted on them.The Gardai are realistic enough to know when a task is worth doing or a waste of their or tax payers time.Stopping you going on the motorway at 61mph is worth more to the govt in revenue and PR about speeding than going with mr B.Eurrcrat to look for an illegal range on Paddy Joes farm in the silage clamp backstop in 6ins,by 80ft of cow manure at 5AM.Is belive you me NOT going to be high on the local SGTs list of importance!!! not to mind that the poor average farm inspector cant get into a farmyard,not to mind the HSE inspectors without the real govt of Ireland the farmers organisations going ballistic.How much shrift will a range inspector get????Expect months of Primetime devoted to this issue!
Look,I am exaggerating here,I know,but I find this whole thing humerous beyond belif,and anyone who has had to deal with the face of Irish govt civil service[meaning 99.9%of us] cannot realistically belive in such an Irish beaurrcratic creature existing.Beliving in Leprachauns would be more realistic.
Just anexample.We are bothered every year about paying our TV liscenses,with annoying ads with ejits being caught out in many different ways.But I ask you how many times have you ever met a TV liscense inspector,or ever have had one call out to you in the most rural part of the country???At 10;00 at night???And you have actually allowed them into your house??And this is a revenue worth more to the Govt than we as shooters ever are,or will be??So where the pirorities here??
I dont deny that these beings will exist,but they will be after established ranges first,the most easiest and proably.It will be a long time before they show up on your door.Finally,as I have stated this isnt law YET!!! So there should be no panic for you to go and shoot on your range,and that is why I stand by my comments.Belive what you want folks,but please look at this realistically with your day to day life knowledge of living here in this great little country of nod &wink.
Sparks please have the last word.

Civ,
Hardly the greatest crime that needs to be checked on the planet???If it ever happens.
How many packs in the post UK hunt ban announced they would hunt the next day of the ban??How many were photoed with fox kills?And how many were arrested the day after?That was a more heated debate with more people watching it,than will be concerned wether I or others go shooting on our back lots the day after this is law.

Psycho,
Not isueing a challange to the Gardai.I am challanging the ununderstandable hysteria that Sparks seems to have about somthing that doesnt even exist yet,and will when we take lifes day to day ness of living here in Ireland,cant or wont on the level that Sparks is promouglating.

Here endeth the Sermon!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Now back to mr Zumbo...

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

I STAND BY IT!!!!And will do so.

And just which club is going to sign off on you as a member, now knowing that you're planning on an illegal act that you've publicly advertised in defiance of the DoJ?

Seriously, do you really think that kind of stuff will fly?

Go ask around. Other clubs have already found out the hard way that it won't.

So WHY does everyone think this will be a well oiled,ruthless BATFE like operation ready to pounce on every poor sod who spent Sunday afternoon popping cans the first Sunday after it become law?

Because it's easy for them to come after us!
CG, for the love of little green apples, how loudly do we need to yell? We are an easy target for politicians who need to be seen to be "doing something about the gun crime problem". You're talking about becoming a part of that problem by definition by committing an illegal act with a firearm, and you're encouraging others to do the same. Right before an election where the Minister's party is looking at being decimated in the polls and where his job's in question! Feck's sake man, that's like deliberately loading your gun before you clean it!

Gee Sparks,people get away without driving without their car tax up to date

Actually, I didn't. Because of a paperwork foul-up in Shannon, I couldn't get my motor tax renewed for nearly six months, and when I had to drive to Tralee to bury my grandmother, I got done for it.
Get used to that CG, it's not fair, it's not right, and it's what happens to people who have little influence or money in this state. People like you and me.

Patience and determination.Get out of your lab college and air rifle range Sonny ,and live a little bit

Keep up with the times son, I've been out of college for the past three years. I just go back there to coach the college rifle club team. And as to air rifle not being living, you come tell me when you can shoot that well, we don't need a slug the size of the seven ring when we're shooting

yes indeedly.They were EX MOD ranges.

No, they were not. They were civvie smallbore and fullbore ranges that got closed because they couldn't get up to code (the london ranges are smallbore and their lease is up and the clubs aren't being allowed renew them 'cos the land is too valuable and they can't afford to make it worth the owners while).

IF you want to belive that the day this is made law or ever.That there will be an efficent,well cordinated,Gestapo like organisation that will storm your house at night,kicking in your doors,dragging you and your wife and kids out in handcuffs, shooting your dog,chucking you face down on your lawn with a HK stuck behind you head,while they demolish your property looking for evidence of an illegal range while RTE films all this while Charlie Bird does a serious face voice over,you are living in an Ireland that is alien to me and to 100% of the normal day to day life.You must be living in CA ,Iran or Nth Korea.

That's a daft assessment. If you really want to know what you're up against, then call the TV inspector and report yourself; and when the TV inspector calls to the door, refuse him entry. He'll go away and come back within a week with a Garda escort and a court order, and a summons to come to court and pay a six hundred-odd euro fine. Have fun thereafter. Of course, that six hundred euro would pay for a few month's worth of ammunition to train with, or a subscription to a target shooting magazine, or range membership for a year or three, but hey, fighting the man is more important than any of those things, right?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

if you belived ...or Kerry a bird hunter...I'd want to see Bill shoot it ,bring it back for Hillary to pluck and gut it,and Chelsea to eat it with the parents,without any of them needing therapy.:D

On the irony front, you need to remember that Kerry and Cheney used the same shotgun - but while Kerry used it sober and shot birds, Cheney used it drunk, broke a cardinal safety rule and used it to shoot an old man in the face

civdef

Don't be daft you silly bugger.

Let's back off on the personal stuff eh?

Sparks, board rules mean I can't, but if you weren't a mod, that would have earned a ban.

Sparks

True. My apologies CG, and I'll delete the offensive bit.