Munster Express: Marks and Spencer to anchor new 'First City Quarter'

fricatus

From the Munster Express:

Marks and Spencer to anchor new ‘First City Quarter’

Report by John O’Connor

The retail giant, Marks and Spencer, is set to become one of the anchor tenants in a huge €200m commercial development on Waterford city’s outer ring road on a site acquired from the City Council last year for €45m. To be known as First City Quarter, it is estimated the development on 30 acres will take five years to complete and will create and accommodate up to 3,000 jobs.

The developer is Galway based Gerry Barrett of Edward Holdings Ltd. one of Ireland’s most respected and progressive businessmen. Mr. Barrett is already responsible for the award-winning Eyre Square Shopping Centre in the Western capital, the Scotch Hall Shopping Centre in Drogheda and the landmark G-Hotel in Galway.

The company has already made a submission to the local authority in regard to the Waterford City Development Plan and its ambitious strategy for First City Quarter includes shopping, residential, an international service office sector and a conference centre. There is a possibility that a hotel may also form part of the package.

A spokesperson for Marks and Spencer declined to comment pointing out that it was company policy not to speak about any future developments until such time as all legal and planning matters had been completed. However, The Munster Express understands from its own sources that the company is keen to acquire 50,000 sq.ft. of the development and considers the outer ring road site as being capable of accommodating its needs in the Waterford area.

When contacted by this newspaper, a spokesperson for Edward Holdings confirmed that the company was well advanced in its plans to create First City Quarter on its site and was confident that, subject to planning permission and other conditions that might be laid down by the City Council, the new development would emerge as one of the jewels in Waterford’s business crown and that of the South East in general.

“By making such a huge financial investment in Waterford, Mr. Barrett is displaying a vote of confidence in the city as a thriving entity and as the capital of the South-East region”, said the spokesperson.

christophicus

I hope they put a Big HMV store in there aswell as an independant games store although that will not happen so Id be happy with a GAME. A cinema would be good too. Not to much to ask

mike65

Steak and Kidney pies! Pork Pies! Crumpets! Only 5 years to wait....:(

Mike.

meldrew

Dont forget Mccann has already objected to the first planning permission for this development so dont expect this to be built in the next few years

lost_for_words

I wonder if more development on the outskirts of the city will not just encourage people not to go into the city centre and might damage business in there. Is there no hope of the brewery thing going ahead? It'll be great to get M&S all the same though.

merlante

lost_for_words wrote:

I wonder if more development on the outskirts of the city will not just encourage people not to go into the city centre and might damage business in there. Is there no hope of the brewery thing going ahead? It'll be great to get M&S all the same though.

This is a critical point. We need the Michael st. development to go ahead or else the city centre is in trouble.

It is really disturbing to read that apparently M&S feel that this presence will be "capable of accommodating its needs in the Waterford area". This presumably means that they wouldn't be coming to the city centre. Very worrying for the centre if that's the case.

mike65

Well it depends how big they intend it to be plus parking for 200/300 cars.

Mike.

fricatus

merlante wrote:

This is a critical point. We need the Michael st. development to go ahead or else the city centre is in trouble.

It is really disturbing to read that apparently M&S feel that this presence will be "capable of accommodating its needs in the Waterford area". This presumably means that they wouldn't be coming to the city centre. Very worrying for the centre if that's the case.

Hear hear. What McCann and his ilk should remember is that M&S, and many other large retailers, are looking at opportunities for expansion all over this country on an ongoing basis. If they can't find a suitable city-centre location, they will find a suburban one. Don't now tell me that suburban retail is favoured by the Green Party over city-centre retail!

I am very much in favour of M&S coming here, but our City Council has really taken its eye off the ball by not proactively making sure that there is city-centre provision for any retailer that wishes to come here.

M&S want to come here and they will come here, but the fact that they're forced into a suburban retail park is a real pity for our city centre, and the consequences will last for the next 30 years.

Junior

You have to wonder what the City Council are up to really, you'd think they'd have made sorting out the city centre first as a priority and then developing the outer ring road, it's strange that it's a commerical development that's going in there considering the amount of industrial development that's happened.

Trick of the Tail

Who is this McCann bloke, and why does he object to everything?

I thought rules for objecting had changed and you now had to have some adjacent or close property of your own in order to be able to object?

A.

trishw78

I turned away some Green Party members from my door last week and told them to recycle there leaflet. That it wasn't needed or wanted in my house.

They were a miffed to why I didn't want to here about the Co. Kilkenny Green Party Rep. I said that Mr McCann was holding Waterford back, and I nor anyone in the house would be voting Green Party.

I apoligised and closed the door only to find that they pushed there leaflet through the letter box anyhow

Off topic I know

Back on Topic I can't wait 5 years is to long to wait final we're becoming a CITY not a city

merlante

Junior wrote:

You have to wonder what the City Council are up to really, you'd think they'd have made sorting out the city centre first as a priority and then developing the outer ring road, it's strange that it's a commerical development that's going in there considering the amount of industrial development that's happened.

As fricatus said, the problem is that the council are not being proactive enough in ensuring that the retail offering in the city centre is expanded and prioritised. They are letting the market sort it out. They say they want the city centre emphasised, but I am not seeing what they are doing to affect that.

The thing is, because of the McCanns, the socialists, and the pumped up locals, it is very difficult to built anything in the centre. There is far less attention on the sites out of town because there are no NIMBYs out there to annoy.

The council should be sitting in the same room as the Michael St. developers trying to hammer out something that is amenable to all sides, ensuring that it gets built and put through to Bord Planala (to face the inevitable serial objector offensive) ASAP. This business of throwing the plan back in the developer's face every 3 months, and sending them away again with a list of questions, etc., is all very fine, but this fiddling is putting the city centre (and even the city as a whole in the short term) in mortal danger.

BBM77

If I had my way, I would start the Michael St shopping centre in the morning and bury McCann and the Congress of Trade Unions in the foundations. You can be sure that if KRM abandon the Michael St shopping centre for some reason, the very people blocking it will be the first preaching about the ills of suburban shopping centres and the need to revitalise the city centre.

I was very disappointed to hear that Waterford city council is seeking further information. I hoped they could have sorted out any unclear points by meeting KRM and hopefully grant planning permission after the first 8 weeks. Realistically it is always going to be appealed to An Bord Pleanala but avoiding the further information thing would have saved time on what is a development of crucial importance to Waterford city centre. Now KRM could possible be waiting a year or more just to get permission to proceed.

It really worries me to see the lack of understanding from certain sections of Waterford as to the danger the centre of Waterford is in. Can they not see how much Waterford city centre has fallen behind its peer cities of Galway & Limerick? There is absolutely no reason why we cannot have as good a retail offering in the city centre as these cities. The only thing stopping this is the painful objections heaped on every small change proposed and the people who attach themselves to major developments for there own selfish negative interests. At present there seems to be a lack of leadership when it comes to development in Waterford and when that happens wasters like Brendan McCann fill the void. I wonder what Waterford city centre is going to be like in 10 years time because at the moment its future is far from clear.

Maharet

Well feckin said Ballybrickenman.

decies

Ballybrickenman wrote:

It really worries me to see the lack of understanding from certain sections of Waterford as to the danger the centre of Waterford is in. Can they not see how much Waterford city centre has fallen behind its peer cities of Galway & Limerick? There is absolutely no reason why we cannot have as good a retail offering in the city centre as these cities. The only thing stopping this is the painful objections heaped on every small change proposed and the people who attach themselves to major developments for there own selfish negative interests. At present there seems to be a lack of leadership when it come to development in Waterford and when that happens wasters like Brendan McCann fill the void. I wonder what Waterford city centre is going to be like in 10 years time because at the moment its future is far from clear.

Excellent points to be honest i think the city is fX£$%^.
There are at least 4 shops closing down in the next months around the city centre,just watch the signs go up

fricatus

decies wrote:

There are at least 4 shops closing down in the next months around the city centre,just watch the signs go up

I wouldn't worry about that. Shops close, other ones open. If you'd told someone in 1978 that one day there would be no Gough's, Winston's or Darrer's in Waterford, they'd have thought the sky was going to fall.

The trouble with Waterford is that there are many retailers just waiting to open here - goodness only knows which ones... definitely M&S, and I'm sure BT are aware they don't have a presence here and are thinking about it - but we don't have suitable locations for them.

We should be doing everything and anything in our power to welcome all the retailers we can attract here, and we should be getting them to come into the city centre, so a critical mass can be created.

I thought it was nuts some year ago when the Sony Centre opened on the Tramore Road. What kind of location is that for such a retailer? They're a city-centre type retailer, and at last they've moved to Michael St. Why did that happen? No doubt they couldn't find a suitable unit on suitable terms in the city centre.

merlante

decies wrote:

Excellent points to be honest i think the city is fX£$%^.
There are at least 4 shops closing down in the next months around the city centre,just watch the signs go up

Yeah but why are they closing down? Are they just going to lower rent locations?

There is huge demand for retail space in Waterford city centre and consumer spending is strong all over the country. I mean look at all of the shopping centres popping up everywhere, including in Waterford (if any of them get through planning). A lot of money is being made.

Shops close down for lots of reasons. The only way the city centre is dying is because it is not being developed, not because people aren't spending money.

merlante

fricatus wrote:

I thought it was nuts some year ago when the Sony Centre opened on the Tramore Road. What kind of location is that for such a retailer? They're a city-centre type retailer, and at last they've moved to Michael St. Why did that happen? No doubt they couldn't find a suitable unit on suitable terms in the city centre.

The Sony Centre was one of the first and best examples of how our city centre was failing in terms of available retail space. It's probably there for a decade now and nothing has changed. In fact, very little has changed since 1989 with the opening of city square. Whole towns have been built out of boreens since then. (The Iron curtain came down in the meantime! :eek: )

Tanabe

Lads, it sounds to me that the simple fact is there is no suitable location big enough for M&S to occupy in the city centre at present that can fulfill their plans (point which has been made previously) so the next best thing is the outer ring road development - BRING IT ON!

It's a great location for the customer, hassle free parking etc. I would think of it in terms of Waterford becoming like a mini-Dublin, expanding all the time. The city's suburbs today will form part of tomorrows city!

I totally agree with the points made about the new shopping complex plans for the city centre, and please God they will sort them out before it's too late. The money will talk in the end.

In the meantime I'll take a giant like M&S anywhere I can get them (within Waterford as a whole).

merlante

Tanabe wrote:

Lads, it sounds to me that the simple fact is there is no suitable location big enough for M&S to occupy in the city centre at present that can fulfill their plans (point which has been made previously) so the next best thing is the outer ring road development - BRING IT ON!

Yes, and there is also no location big enough outside the city centre either. All of these plans have to get through Bord Planala yet.

And no I don't subscribe to the view that just because the city centre development has a few hold ups that we should just abandon it and 'bring on' out of town development. Service provision is more sustainable in the city centre.

Tanabe wrote:

It's a great location for the customer, hassle free parking etc. I would think of it in terms of Waterford becoming like a mini-Dublin, expanding all the time. The city's suburbs today will form part of tomorrows city!

Wrong! The city centre can handle more traffic than the outer ring road. The city centre also contains, and will contain, more parking. There are car parks lying idle in the city centre at the moment (New st./ALDI in the Glen). The city centre is served by numerous roads linking it radially with the surrounding population. All roads lead to the centre, so it is naturally by far and away the best place to put comparison shopping.

All it would take would be for a few things such as shopping centres and large housing estates on the outer ring road and combined with the normal traffic you'd have gridlock.

Why anyone would want Waterford to turn into a mini-Dublin, with an outer ring road that is more like a carpark at rush hour, like the M50, is beyond me.

Out of town shopping is actually proven to be the worst and least sustainable type of development for cities.

Tanabe wrote:

I totally agree with the points made about the new shopping complex plans for the city centre, and please God they will sort them out before it's too late. The money will talk in the end.

In the meantime I'll take a giant like M&S anywhere I can get them (within Waterford as a whole).

Personally I'd prefer to delay M&S 6/12 months rather than set up a pattern of development in Waterford that will reduce the quality of life for all for the next 40 years!

We have really good roads coming on stream in Waterford now, and they can so easily be rendered useless by excess out of town development. All it takes is moderate development along the bypass/outer ring road and Waterford Airport, which is just getting off the ground, will find itself inaccessible from north of the city again. There is no point in building orbital roads if you are just going to squander the capacity on unsustainable developments.

Tanabe

I don't agree with you but hey, there you go! Nice play with words by the way;)

Bards

I would have to agree with Merlante on this one.... I want to see a sustainable compact City Centre with high rise (Low in an International context) buildings about 4 -8 stories high, depending on location. Park & Ride facilities on all major approach roads to the City with 10-15 min intervals during peak hours and 20 - 30 mins off peak.

We could be the first car free city in Ireland if only the powers that be realise what potential there is. I would also like to see a multi-story Car Park be developed on or near the grounds of WRH to offer park & Ride maybe even via river boat into the Clock Tower and at the same time this would lead to improved car parking at WRH

The amount of space that is wasted in the grounds of WRH with surface car parking which is not secure is a joke

Roen

The only thing the ORR should be used for is to get traffic around the city as quickly as possible. Zero housing, zero development. Start putting up all sorts of crap on it and you may as well get out and walk.

merlante

Tanabe wrote:

I don't agree with you but hey, there you go! Nice play with words by the way;)

You can disagree with other established theories, such as gravity and evolution, as well if you want you to, but that's not going to change anything.

Nice dud reply by the way.

merlante

I agree with comments by Bards and Roen.

Considering that most people don't know a damn thing about urban planning, I think the city should be planned by experts in consultation with the city council, rather than the other way around.

The outer ring road will be a carpark in 10-15 years if the laisser-faire development that occurred in Dublin happens in Waterford. The population and population density will be too low at that point to justify an outer outer ring road.

BBM77

I agree with what has been written about sustainable city development. Having to much retail on the outskirts of a city only creates what they call in the US a doughnut city. I also feel that more should be done to encourage families to live in city centre areas. If you looked at all the apartments that have been built in Waterford in the last decade you would be hard pressed to find one that would be suitable for a family. The apartments built in Wellington St for example were a lost opportunity to construct family size apartments with The Green in Ballybricken a ready-made green space. The few houses that are built in the central areas are barely big enough to lie down in. If you visit any city in mainland Europe, you will find that the city centres are very much residential as well as business areas. Retail is very important, but there is more than one way to keep life in a city centre.

mike65

I think both points are bing overplayed, as I undersatand it the outside of the ORR is going to be planted with a linear woodland (I won't call it a forrest). It looks like the development wil be contained inside the road, thats okay by me. As for this love for the centre, I avoid the place like the plague already. I can shop around the edge just fine or online of course.

Mike.

mike65

Just found this in the City Development Plan 2002-2008

pdf

POLICY
GENERAL
It is the policy of Waterford City Council to engage
with the County Councils of Co. Waterford,
Kilkenny and Wexford in the preparation and
adoption of a joint retail strategy.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to have
regard to the Retail Planning Guidelines for
Planning Authorities issued by the Minister for the
Environment & Local Government and to have due
regard to the policies, strategies and thresholds for
types of retail developments contained in these
Guidelines. Where a lesser threshold is specified
in this Development Plan, the Development Plan
threshold shall apply in the determination of retail
development proposals.

POLICY
CITY CENTRE

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to
maintain and reinforce the dominant position of the
City Centre as the premier shopping area in the
city and the region.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to protect
the retail function of the City’s principal shopping
streets and to control the provision of non-retail
uses at ground floor level on the following streets: -Arundel
Square, Barronstrand Street, John Roberts
Square, Broad Street, George’s Street, John Street
from Michael Street to Parnell Street, Michael
Street, the South Quays from Gladstone Street to
Exchange Street.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to
continue and expand the environmental
improvement and urban design schemes in the City
Centre in order to enhance the attractiveness of the
main shopping area, and the vibrancy and vitality
of the central core (see also Section 3.2)
It is the policy of Waterford City Council to
encourage the regeneration, while protecting the
traditional local market role and encouraging
specialist shopping functions, of the secondary
shopping streets, and of Ballybricken Green.
It is the policy of Waterford City Council to assist in
the improvement and integration of these
secondary shopping streets with the central retail
area of the city centre, by the designation and
improvement of pedestrian linkages, reduction in
traffic levels and other environmental
improvements.

POLICY:
SUBURBAN AREAS

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to restrict
the development of large scale retail outlets in the
suburban areas of the City, and to prohibit such
developments adjacent or close to, existing new or
planned national roads, including the proposed
Waterford City By-Pass and the Outer Ring Road.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to adopt
the sequential approach to retail development
location. Prospective developers will be required to
demonstrate that a comprehensive assessment of
the size, availability, accessibility and feasibility of
developing both site and premises, firstly within the
City Centre, and secondly on the edge of the
centre, has been carried out; and alternative out of
centre sites will be considered only where it can be
conclusively demonstrated that no city centre or
edge of centre sites are suitable, viable and
available.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council to restrict
the development of large scale convenience outlets,
outside the city centre, to the designated sites at
Ardkeen and Farronshoneen. The maximum size
of supermarket to be developed shall not exceed
3,000 sq. metres net retail sales space, with not
less than 95% of the selling space devoted to
convenience sales, subject to the outcome of a
retail impact assessment determining the actual
floor area to be permitted.

It is the policy of Waterford City Council that all
proposals for retail developments with a floor area
in excess of 2000 sq. metres net retail sales space
(whether a new development or an extension of an
existing development) shall be accompanied by a
retail impact assessment carried out in accordance
with the criteria set out in Annex 4 of the Retail
Planning Guidelines.

POLICY
LOCAL (NEIGHBOURHOOD) CENTRES

It is the policy of Waterford City Council that
adequate, and an appropriate scale of, retail and
other services be provided within the existing and
proposed neighbourhood centres. Each such
centre shall not normally exceed 650 sq. metres
net retail sales space, of which not less than 90%
shall be devoted to the sale of convenience goods.
Additional floor area to provide for retail services

Mike.

merlante

Nice one Mike, that says it all.

mike65

Warehouse Retailing addendum pdf

Mike.

AdMMM

Lets face it though, what the Council says it will do and what it actually does is often a laughable contrast. Regarding ORR development, I would hope that the Council doesn't entertain the thought. Dublin City Council have only recently realised the problems regarding development on their outer roads and for Waterford to become an effective "gateway" or "hub" then we can't possibly risk having chock-a-block traffic on roads that were originally intended to relieve traffic!