2.10 Patch notes

Binomate

DRakE wrote:

Spec disc with Pain suppression and reflective shield. It's seriously the only way for a pvp healer. (HEALER NOT DPS before you scream 'shadow is d bst' at me)

I can't respec at the minute cause I'm speced for raiding. I've completely stoped pvp all together.

Ivan

I was under the impression that shield blocks no longer prevent crits or crushing blows, so exactly why are druids a liability in Karazhan?

Unless of course you mean noob druids that dont have the ~300 def rating needed to properly tank end game bosses.

But yeah, I think the nerf to druids was pretty harsh, they nerfed the aggro and now the damage and the hp when they should have just nerfed the damage.

Warriors got some mad buffs both for tanking and otherwise when I'm still watching my friends in crappy blues and a lionheart slam targets for 1-2k crits, uninterruptible. Mortal strikes for 3k. Tanking in battle stance spamming Mortal strike just seems wrong some how.

Still, Blizzard felt that warriors needed a buff and druids needed a nerf...
mneh, I guess I'm still in shock.

rainbow kirby

*gets a mighty crack of the nerf bat*

Forbearance causes a 15% drop in damage done, both physical and spell damage.
Avenging Wrath and Divine Shield now share a cooldown.
Retri's dead... holy/prot seems to be the only way to go...

WTF_L2P_n00b

B-K-DzR wrote:

I'm having no problems tanking Karazahn atm. Outta curoisoty how much +crit u got and +dmg? I mean my fire mage had about 400 and 30% crit and as long as i didnt open with a pyro crit i was generally ok. This thats what invis is for... its a full aggro wipe afterall. I do realise warlocks go at about 75% in my guild and some others. We found druid tanks in karazahn a major liability.
Slightly more armour, no parry and similar dodge. Just wasn't work loosing parry and shield block spam for bosses (druids we have dont *do* def, its a warrior thing apparently :rolleyes: ).


Again i'm having no problems holding aggro with a little bit of common sense. Infact if my first shield slam doesn't miss i don't lost aggro often (tho as i said some peeps arent going 100%).
My hp is about 14k full buffed, about 13500 armour (54% ish mitigation), 16% parry 18% dodge and 18% block (important since my def still relatively low at 490). Dunno how 14k hp is no hp, especially with 54% mitigation and parry. Still the buff is welcome. Should make multi mob tanking a bit easier with a non prot spec. More rage is always nice

Ok I have +700dmg with no pots and over +1000dmg fully buffed with pots with a 30% crit rate and a 10/38/3 PvE Raid Fire Build.

I can pretty much unload with the Druid tanking but really have to hold back with the prot warriors.

I usually spam a few channels of AM as I have the extra threat reduction from Arcane Subtelty then scorch them up and start to unload, with the Druid I can pretty much go flat out from the start.

We are using a druid to MT Kara at the moment as he is about 50% more effective than the warriors, both for aggro generation, dmg mitigation and the huge HP he has @18k+

Invisi is no use on trash, and only really worth using 1/2 way through a boss fight, so you still really have to watch the aggro. Having to hold back dps by such a magnitude on boss attempts with a warrior tanking really puts more pressure on the healers.

Imo Prot warriors should be the most viable tanks, and personally I would like the Druids left as they are and the warriors buffed to be at least as viable.

Dubhthamlacht

druids at present make fantatsic tanks. To leave them as is and then buff Prot warriors to make them better the druid tanks would make a mockery of some boss fights. Druids will whine endlessly but in all fairness can any one say it wasn't going to happen? Druid tanking as much as I like it needed to be nerfed to bring it into line with things. Simply buffing one class enough to surpass another class is not the answer. If you think otherwise you're in dreamland.

Prot warriors tank fine especially if you bring a hunter along for misdirection. Simply get the hunter to pop misdirection at the very beginning of a boss fight and a mage can go flat out from the start.

Kevok

Eh, you'd be hard pressed to find a druid that didn't think they needed a correction in the damage department in bear. But they completely gutted the form.

Druids do not scale well in end game. That is a fact. The rare->epic progression of weapons that warriors and rogues have don't compare to druids since they scale off ap alone. This means that druid threat will not scale as well as a warrior and so these changes, coupled with the threat nerf from just after bc release means that druids will tank worse than pre bc in new raid content down the line. If my druid was still my main I'd be sick with these changes.

timmyotoole

Those changes to druids are sick. All they needed to do was lower our damage and increase our threath modifiers. Not kick us in the teeth.

Binomate

Ivan wrote:

Unless of course you mean noob druids that dont have the ~300 def rating needed to properly tank end game bosses.

This may be a silly question, but why do Druids need defence rating? As I understand, defence gives a slight percentage to block, parry, and dodge, right? Since druids only use one of these surely +defence is wasted on them? Does it give any additional stats?

Kevok

From WoWWiki.com

For an attack from an equal-level NPC, each point in defense:

* Increases the chance of being missed by an attack by .04%
* Increases the chance to dodge an attack by .04%
* Increases the chance to parry an attack by .04%
* Increases the chance to block an attack by .04%
* Decreases the chance of being affected by a critical hit by .04%

Out of the 5, druids benefit from 3. Agility is far more important for tanking than defense for a druid due to the new agi->dodge formula for druids. Defense is very important however for crushing blows reduction.

DRakE

Raiding as a 41/20 priest is still perfectly viable imo.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=dxghzIxdb0eofLxcc

Imp Innerfire, pain suppression and reflective shield for pvp, with inspration, crit,imp renew quick cast heals for pve.

BKtje

I was under the impression that shield blocks no longer prevent crits or crushing blows, so exactly why are druids a liability in Karazhan?

That's is inaccurate im afraid. At 490 (max defence) crit rate is down to 0.1% (lowest it can go), Only way to stop crushing blows from bosses is to spam shield block and build your shield block rating.

Main benefit of defence is to lower the amount of crushing blows inflicted by a boss, the other stuff is just secondary.

This may be a silly question, but why do Druids need defence rating?

To lower the amount of crushing blows as stated above. Armour mitigation helps a lot to lower the crushing blows (they don't get parry or shield block so need to mitigate it instead, hence high armour) but it's still best to try an minimise it. Defence also helps to lower crit chance against. Basically you are trying to minimise the damage spikes that you take to make healing easier.

Those changes to druids are sick. All they needed to do was lower our damage and increase our threath modifiers. Not kick us in the teeth.

According to a post over on the wow forums, druid threat to a single target is fairly stable, multiple targets is harder but more inline with a warriors. Damage has been scaled waaaaay down however. If this post is to be believed then druids are still viable tanks but multi target tanking difficulty has been increased a lot. Guess we won't know till more people try it out on the PTR.

Ok I have +700dmg with no pots and over +1000dmg fully buffed with pots with a 30% crit rate and a 10/38/3 PvE Raid Fire Build.

That is an insane amount of +dmg and +crit. You must have some set of gear. I'm not surprised you have to go at 60% (you could just swap out some +dmg gear in exchange for +stam/int tbh but thats up to you). If an entire raid had that kinda damage then it really would make a mockery of bosses.

really puts more pressure on the healers.

From my own experience in karazahn (up to curator at present), the healers arent having much problems with mana.

Woden

B-K-DzR wrote:

I'm having no problems tanking Karazahn atm. Outta curoisoty how much +crit u got and +dmg? I mean my fire mage had about 400 and 30% crit and as long as i didnt open with a pyro crit i was generally ok. This thats what invis is for... its a full aggro wipe afterall. I do realise warlocks go at about 75% in my guild and some others. We found druid tanks in karazahn a major liability.
Slightly more armour, no parry and similar dodge. Just wasn't work loosing parry and shield block spam for bosses (druids we have dont *do* def, its a warrior thing apparently :rolleyes: ).


Again i'm having no problems holding aggro with a little bit of common sense. Infact if my first shield slam doesn't miss i don't lost aggro often (tho as i said some peeps arent going 100%).
My hp is about 14k full buffed, about 13500 armour (54% ish mitigation), 16% parry 18% dodge and 18% block (important since my def still relatively low at 490). Dunno how 14k hp is no hp, especially with 54% mitigation and parry. Still the buff is welcome. Should make multi mob tanking a bit easier with a non prot spec. More rage is always nice

I don't think those dmg figures represent a well geared game in end game mage tbh i would expect them to have twice as much plus dmg. I must intervene (no pun intended). If you are finding your druids a tanking liability in karazhan tbh they aren't geared for it. Slightly more armour for me is druid with 22k my dodge is equal to the sum of your dodge and parry (would be 42% dodge fully raid buffed). When you do get hit even if you blocked every hit each hit would still hit you for more then me and i'm also crit immune and running round with 22+ k hps fully raid buffed. The only difference is crushing blows which druids can't do anything about but warriors can.

fully buffed i'm thinking, motw, fort, imp, CS, kings, titans, elixir agi, elixir defense, elixir mastery, food, agi totem.

With regards to defense a warrior only needs 490 a druid needs 415 and 3 points in survival of the fittest.

Woden

B-K-DzR wrote:

That's is inaccurate im afraid. At 490 (max defence) crit rate is down to 0.1% (lowest it can go), Only way to stop crushing blows from bosses is to spam shield block and build your shield block rating.

Main benefit of defence is to lower the amount of crushing blows inflicted by a boss, the other stuff is just secondary.

The first statement here is correct to my knowledge however once you get your defense to 350 defense you get from gear has no affect on crushing blows received (http://evilempireguild.org/guides/crushing.php). so defense does what it says it does on the tooltip. makes a mob miss, makes you dodge, makes you block, makes you parry and makes you less likely to be crit. The only that deals that pushs crushing blows off the table is shield block which is the main difference between a druid and warrior atm imo.

In response to the people who are asking why a druid needs defense the main reason is crit reduction the others are just a nice bonus. When mobs can hit for 5-6k i don't want to be crit ><. so as a tankie druid i worked my defense/resilence up to the point where i am crit immune including talents.

My own take on the changes is similar to others i'm happy to have the actual dmg numbers from bear decreased if the threat modifiers where reintroduced for those that don't know the 1.75 modifers on maul/swipe where removed a while back. Instead imo they should have left them in and reduced the dmg.
I agree that doing 600 dps with swipe in a 5 man is not particuarly balanced. However if a rogue can't outdps a druid when a druid is single target tanking that rogue sucks. Overly harsh and reactive to the pvp whines (like most nerfs these days) would be my summary of it.

kayos

B-K-DzR wrote:

Ok I have +700dmg with no pots and over +1000dmg fully buffed with pots with a 30% crit rate and a 10/38/3 PvE Raid Fire Build.

That is an insane amount of +dmg and +crit. You must have some set of gear.

Ahhhh 700dmg 30%crit is nothing for a mage.

I'm a shaman sitting on 704dmg to LB and CL, 92MP5, 28% to crit and 14% to hit...Thats using the Alchem stone (no dmg or crit but 40% to mana pots rules) in one trinket slot and the Sha'tar caster trinket in the other. Oh ya thats without my totems......I've not set foot in Kara or a heroic yet for better gear.



I'm just looking forward to my new clearcasting .

rainbow kirby

Looks like the paladin nerf have been held off for now... /sigh of relief

The comment which was made though was that our burst damage is too high... I'd love to know what they're smoking. Burst damage is the only thing that makes a retri build viable, and if they are to reduce the burst damage we can put out then we are dead in the water for PvP and we may as well all spec holy/prot and be good little raiding buffbots.
*contemplates rolling elemental shaman*

Splinter

priest one has changed...

Here are the latest patch notes for the PTR 2.0.10

Priests



The base healing percent from "Vampiric Embrace" has been reduced to 15% from 20%. In addition, this ability can no longer get critical heals.

"Silent Resolve" no longer reduces threat generated by Shadow spells.

Prayer of Mending now has a 10 second cooldown.

Mass Dispel will now target immunity effects first.

Circle of Healing mana cost reduced by 25%.

The effectiveness of "Fade:Rank 7" has been increased by approximately 25%.

The damage absorption of "Power Word: Shield" added by the caster's bonus healing has been increased to 20%.

Binomate

It seems the developers actually got wind of some of the problems that Priests face, then took a very very very small step in the right direction. These small fixes make the prayer or mending nerf less of a nerf. Two steps backwards, one step forward.

If they think fixing a 41 talent point that nobody uses well shut priests up, they've got another thing coming. The Priests holy tree needs a complete revamp, and talents like lightwell, circle or healing and holy nova need to be changed dramatically, or replaced. I like some of the ideas I've seen on the priest forums. The Disc talent tree needs to be more defined towards a certain goal, i.e. small short buffs, and the holy tree needs to be be a complete tree for healing, rather than the current state it's in where the best healing talent build is split between two trees. Currently, I don't know of any priests with the 41 point talent in holy.

Splinter

ahh the vampiric embrace change hurts though...i agree with what was said by one of the others - why change the base talent? if they wanted to change VE then why not the improved VE talent and just make it a one point increase to 25% and not 2points to 30%...

rainbow kirby

Binomate wrote:

Currently, I don't know of any priests with the 41 point talent in holy.

I know one, and my paladin outheals him massively.

DRakE

its easy for a paladin to outheal a priest

paladins will have mana for longer, 100% crits on some spells.. just their flash heal isnt as good

BKtje

Ahhhh 700dmg 30%crit is nothing for a mage.

Well i've just switched frost. Am pretty much decked out in non heroic blues and got a lil over 500, 15% crit, 7k stam and 9k int. I realise my stam's pretty high for raiding and what not but i been trying to beef up ym +dmg. Just been unable too

Dustaz

Holy crap what a bunch of unjustified whining and biased bollocks.

Druids. You are imbalanced. You admit it yourselves. You CANNOT expect to have a character that can tank as well as a prot warrior and do the dps of a rogue (and thats discounting the bear form dps). That is what druids are at the moment.

The best example of this at the moment in the game is the Black Morass. I have stopped bothering doing this with a warrior (unless i know for a fact hes a MT and even then id prefer a druid). Druids make this an almost trivial encounter. Thier aoe tanking ability and ac/hp means they can just tank everything at the portals and ill just aoe the spawns after the rift lord is dead. With a druid tanking, ive come through this with the shield at 99% and 95%. Ive yet to finish it with a warrior. As far as i can see, threat has not been massively affected by the druid nerfs so there is absolutly zero damage done apart from tweaking the imba hp and ac.

Priests.
A Blue peter badge to the genius whos suggesting that priests get targeted first in pvp. Theres something new here? As has been said, you shouldnt be able to survive it. From what youve been saying, your either A. Very bad at pvp or B. Have very bad teammates. The PoM nerf isnt the end of the world in any shape or form and even priests on this thread have admitted as much.
The shadowthreat thing imo is a brilliant idea. If the DPS on the shadow tree was nerfed (which lets face it, probably should be a little) there would be tears from heaven for 3 weeks. This way, shadowpriests only have to reign in their dps a little while still retaining their really nice and unique role. Its not like they cant use the new and improved fade so its really not that huge of a nerf.

Warriors.
Hurrah for the ginger stepkids of wow. About time they got something. Playing my warrior alt feels like pennance for past crimes at the moment. Playing on my main watching warriors try in vain to hold aggro and crying as yet another +healing plate item drops in outland is probably worse.
However i cant help but have a horrible suspicion that warriors are not going to enjoy this for long. At the moment, warriors are still gearing up and will be for a long time to come (remeber, +Int plate, MT's getting preference etc etc). Think about what will happen to all that extra rage and the extra crit when they are wielding the Outland equivalent of Ashkandi and wearing full tier 6. While these changes are no doubt very badly needednow, Im guessing that in the future pvp will once again overrule pve and a nerf will come.

Who else? Oh yeh. Paladins. You heal as well as priests with infinite mana and plate armour. Cry more:)

Binomate

Well after all the rage has died down, I think it's become more clear about what the problems are. I'm less angry about the nerf to PrOM and not being able to use it to survive in PvP, and more angry the fact that we had to spam it in PvP to survive. It's plain and simple, we certainly have a survivability issue.

Looking at tbc, I'm can only feel disapointment for my class. Our new spells are terible with some exceptions (but still terrible compared to how usefull spells some of the other classes got), and our talent trees are rubish.

Anyway, I'm loving my new hunter.

BKtje

Pom cooldown down to 10 seconds now

Orion

Don't understand this myself. Holy Priests are redundant now tbh. I quest with a mate who's a Holy pally and he can solo heal through Shadowlabs. And he wears plate - no need for a priest. And even with this patch I'll be happy with a pally healing. Priests now count as random caster - if they're shadow spec.

And as for tanks? Did Sethekk the other day with a resto druid tanking (and that pally healing)! No need for warriors either - a druid can tank just as well. Their answer - screw druids completely. Good move :rolleyes:

This message has been brought to you by a subtlety spec rogue

Jim

Macros42 wrote:

Don't understand this myself. Holy Priests are redundant now tbh. I quest with a mate who's a Holy pally and he can solo heal through Shadowlabs. And he wears plate - no need for a priest. And even with this patch I'll be happy with a pally healing. Priests now count as random caster - if they're shadow spec.

And as for tanks? Did Sethekk the other day with a resto druid tanking (and that pally healing)! No need for warriors either - a druid can tank just as well. Their answer - screw druids completely. Good move :rolleyes:

This message has been brought to you by a subtlety spec rogue

Just because Paladin's can, doesn't mean they're any better. No group heal or hots and our flash heal sucks if you don't have the right gear (binding heal roxor's). Also they haven't screwed druid's completly, they're bear damage needed a nerf (1k swipe's on 3 mobs at the same time) and thats what they got.

And you don't need the right spec to do most 5 mans effectivly. I healed all instances on my pally up to 65 in ret spec and the same for my Shaman all the way to 60 as enchancement.

Binomate

Paladins get 100% mana back everytime they crit. That more than makes up for having no hots.

Mr. CooL ICE

Aye, the priest holy tree does need a revamp, but I don't see the need to make it purely a healing tree and make Disc a purely survivability tree. Both trees have a few useless talents thrown in, but blizzard just need a bit of imagination to rework them. Ive never specced 41 points in holy, simply because, ive never found that doing 5-10 man dungeons is enough to warrant circle of healing, and instead have specced 23/38/0 to be mostly healing, but have improved divine spirit.

When we start doing some 25-mans, I may respec 20/41/0.

rainbow kirby

Binomate wrote:

Paladins get 100% mana back everytime they crit. That more than makes up for having no hots.

That's a holy talent, actually... Of course anyone who's healing at 70 will have it (it's a 15 point talent, with 5 steps), but not every pally does. I couldn't be without it, which is why when I spec retnoob for any reason my build is 20/0/41. Current holy build is 40/0/21. And something like the priest Circle of Healing (basically, a Consecration that heals) would have been a wonderful 41 point holy talent for us.

Cuddlesworth

Dustaz wrote:

Priests.
A Blue peter badge to the genius whos suggesting that priests get targeted first in pvp. Theres something new here? As has been said, you shouldnt be able to survive it. From what youve been saying, your either A. Very bad at pvp or B. Have very bad teammates. The PoM nerf isnt the end of the world in any shape or form and even priests on this thread have admitted as much.
The shadowthreat thing imo is a brilliant idea. If the DPS on the shadow tree was nerfed (which lets face it, probably should be a little) there would be tears from heaven for 3 weeks. This way, shadowpriests only have to reign in their dps a little while still retaining their really nice and unique role. Its not like they cant use the new and improved fade so its really not that huge of a nerf.

I'd like to point out that fade is a temperary agro dump, so when it ends if you have not lost enough agro he goes back to beating on you. Every other dps class get a perm agro dump. Same goes for the healers(something else palidans don't worry about)

We also have the highest agro of any other class if we keep up vampiric embrace and touch, and without them we are usless.

Adding to that a Shadow preist should never be able to out dps a good mage or warlock( especially a warlock if hes in the same party).

The only thing we had in our favour was 8 points in 2 trees for passive agro reduction on a class with no permanent agro dump and high agro gain. Now we dont even have that.

Shadow priest's needed a nerf, but blizzard came out swinging with a baseball bat at us.