2.10 Patch notes

Woden

Binomate wrote:

Paladins get 100% mana back everytime they crit. That more than makes up for having no hots.

Yeah because when you compare these things together they really cancel each other out :rolleyes: . If anything i think the 100% mana back on crit for holy paladins allows them better mana efficiency to make up for the fact that they have no regeneration whilst casting from spirit.

Priests have the widest variety of healing spells and the best regen in game. They are hardly gonna be replaced as primary healers any time soon.

Macros42 wrote:

Don't understand this myself. Holy Priests are redundant now tbh. I quest with a mate who's a Holy pally and he can solo heal through Shadowlabs. And he wears plate - no need for a priest. And even with this patch I'll be happy with a pally healing. Priests now count as random caster - if they're shadow spec.

And as for tanks? Did Sethekk the other day with a resto druid tanking (and that pally healing)! No need for warriors either - a druid can tank just as well. Their answer - screw druids completely. Good move

This message has been brought to you by a subtlety spec rogue.

Any healing class can heal any 5 man instance. Just because one can do it hardly makes the other redundant. Same for a tanking class. Atm there are situations in raids you will use a warrior and situations you will use a druid. Resto druids can tank instances np tbh when people are putting out the dps of a subtlety rogue.

Mr. CooL ICE

krazy_8s wrote:

Adding to that a Shadow preist should never be able to out dps a good mage or warlock( especially a warlock if hes in the same party)

Just pointing something out... If your talking about shadow weaving, the warlocks doesn't need to be in the same group, as it is an enemy debuff and not a group buff. Therefore it applies to the whole raid. Same goes for misery.

But yes, they shouldn't be able to out-dps a mage or warlock significantly in a raid, but if they do, it is just down to skill (and gear if the mages/locks aren't as well geared). But in PVP, without bothering with threat, it shouldn't matter who does more dps.

BKtje

Every other dps class get a perm agro dump. Same goes for the healers(something else palidans don't worry about)

I don't follow, neither warlocks, shamans nor warriros get an agro dump. Druid healers nor shammy's get an aggro dump. Im obviously missing your point i guess.

Binomate

Dataisgod wrote:

Priests have the widest variety of healing spells and the best regen in game. They are hardly gonna be replaced as primary healers any time soon.

Yeah, we sure do. All three of our spells (Flash heal, renew and Greater Heal). The other spells we have are unuseable due to mana cost or the fact that they're extremely situational.

kayos

B-K-DzR wrote:

I don't follow, neither warlocks, shamans nor warriros get an agro dump. Druid healers nor shammy's get an aggro dump. Im obviously missing your point i guess.

Warlocks have soul shatter. Any way dont paladins have a passive agro reduction built into the class? Plus a paladins bubble is like fade, if they are still on top of the agro when it drops the mob comes back to them again afaik. A hybrid class should not really have a agro dump tbh (I play a elemental shaman).

Binomate wrote:

Yeah, we sure do. All three of our spells (Flash heal, renew and Greater Heal). The other spells we have are unuseable due to mana cost or the fact that they're extremely situational.

Ah ya just like a Shaman's Chain heal is situational, but in the right situation it pwns. You have the choice of many healing spells for different occassions. If or not you use them does not mean you dont have them available.

Binomate

Well it just so happens that the situations they can be used in, when they occur, they still suck.

Cuddlesworth

LordChessington wrote:

Just pointing something out... If your talking about shadow weaving, the warlocks doesn't need to be in the same group, as it is an enemy debuff and not a group buff. Therefore it applies to the whole raid. Same goes for misery.

But yes, they shouldn't be able to out-dps a mage or warlock significantly in a raid, but if they do, it is just down to skill (and gear if the mages/locks aren't as well geared). But in PVP, without bothering with threat, it shouldn't matter who does more dps.

Cool, wasn't aware of that. And even though I like pvp in Wow, I believe the developers are ruining the PvE element of the game trying to balance for pvp.

B-K-DzR wrote:

I don't follow, neither warlocks, shamans nor warriros get an agro dump. Druid healers nor shammy's get an aggro dump. Im obviously missing your point i guess.

As has been said before, warlocks have soulshatter, hunters feint death, mages a whole host of agro reduction talents and spells. Palidens have a blessing for agro reduction and depending on the party have no mana regen issues. They alos wear plate. Contrary to popular opinion priests do have problems with mana regen.

Shamans have no perm agro dump, but.........they wear much better armour and don't wipe after 2 hits allowing the warrior time to gain back agro. The can spec for 15 percent passive agro reduction, and can use some of their totems for crowd control. Same with palidans(bubble=perm agro dump+invunrabilty).

All I'm saying is the only good thing about being a shadow priest in a raid enviroment was the 45% passive threat reduction. The reasons were

-Mindflay and dots are our most mana efficiant spells, but mind flay needs to be within 30 yards to work so the 130% threat modifyer did not apply. So now without any agro dump available what do we do now? Tick away at less damage then a Arms warrior?

-The disc tree has always been the middle ground between both holy and shadow. Now to suit Blizzard, the talents in the disc tree have stopped applying to Shadow? That defeats some of the very base dynamics of the game and how the spell trees are supposed to work.

Ve was nerfed not because it was overpowered. There was a bug, yes you heard me bug. It was in the game for 2 years and alllowed Ve to double crit on 1 hit. This is why crits were removed, not to fix the bug properly but to take teh easy option. Ve was also nefed because of pallys. Yes, you heard me pallys. A pally could spam heals out till his face was blue in a instance and would never run out of mana with a shadow preist in his group. Both VE and VT gave the pally back mana.

rainbow kirby

But how many instance groups would *actually* allow a priest to go DPS? Far too many people are/were stuck in the priest heals/pally OTs and buffs mentality. Even when the pally is holy-spec with decent heal gear. I've been in *2* instance groups in my entire time playing my pally where I was MH and the priest was DPS. And while yes, it is absolutely beautiful (10% of healing done on me back as mana at 70, Spiritual Attunement), it is an incredibly rare occurence due to the general lack of healers.

kayos

krazy_8s wrote:

Shamans have no perm agro dump, but.........they wear much better armour and don't wipe after 2 hits allowing the warrior time to gain back agro. The can spec for 15 percent passive agro reduction, and can use some of their totems for crowd control. Same with palidans(bubble=perm agro dump+invunrabilty).

All I'm saying is the only good thing about being a shadow priest in a raid enviroment was the 45% passive threat reduction. The reasons were

Ok lets get this right at least from a shaman point of view.

Traquil Air is a 20% threat reduction effects the whole party and rules out the use of Grace of Air, Wraith of Air, Wind Fury Totems.

Enhancement Shaman can get a 15% agro reduction on melee attacks for 1 point coupled with parry at a total 21point cost.

Elemental Shaman can get a 10% agro reduction for 3points coupled with a 6% to hit with spells at a total of 28point cost.

Resto Shaman can get a 15% agro reduction on heals for 3points at a total of 13point cost. Natures Guardian also can lower threat against a target but he most actually hit you and take you below 30% health. This is available at a total of a 35point cost.

As for using totems for crowd control....

Stoneclaw totem in an instance is one shotted and has a very weak agro gain. One hit on the mob, one heal and you will have out agro'd it. Its not even worth putting down in a heroic level instance and totally pointless in a raid.

Earth Elemental totem currently bugged and does not spawn with full health. But has a huge agro gain and a AE Taunt. We can not control it. But in the right situation it can be a life saver heck even a tank saver! But its on a 20minute cool down.

Earth Bind.....lol.

As for mail providing us with a better chance of living? Ok fair enough we reduce melee dmg more than a priest. But its not as big as you think. We will still get one shotted in a heroic if we pull agro.

In terms of the paladin bubble I'm still pretty sure it works like Ice Block for a frost mage..i.e. if they are still top of the agro list once it drops the mob is back on them. So in that case no its not a perm agro dump.

Now back onto your problem of agro reduction as a shadow priest. If your grouped with a paladin get BoS, with a shaman ask for TA. Then just watch your bloody agro! If you see you target swap to you run like hell to the tank not away from him :P. I know this might seem like your running to your death but if you run away the tank has a harder time to get the mob back.

Agro generation is problem for all classes. Pure DPS classes have a way of dumping their agro to allow them to continue with their job. Hybrids while they might have some reduction have no dump they just have to control their agro.

BKtje

Shamans have no perm agro dump, but.........they wear much better armour and don't wipe after 2 hits allowing the warrior time to gain back agro.

I really don't see how this is worse than fade, infact i'd prefer fade (have played both in bwl/mc). When i was playing my priest in raids (pre tbc), if i faded i took a quick break to allow warrior to build some agro before i started pumping ou heals again (well if i could, in agro sensitive fights we used a healing rotation which solved all our problems. I know this doesnt work for spriests). You fade and loose x agro temporarily. Take a short break and let warrior build agro again. Chances are you won't get agro again unless your outgear the warrior by quite a bit.
With next patches warrior buffs it will be even harder for you to pull agro with the extra rage warriors will have(minus ofc the stuff u loose).

Heroic instance mobs hit me (depends on mob ofc but first lot in slave pens for instance) for circa 4k in full tanking gear. Basically they would 2 shot a shaman if not crits. That doesn't give tank much time. Yet fade means you shouldnt take any hits at all. Ok you gotta take a break after but surely thats better than being 2 shotted.

What im saying is that everything is situational and it always seems greener on the other side.

BloodBath

Blizzard haven't a ****ing clue what they are at tbh. Especially when it comes to druids. For 2 years druids made constructive posts on how to improve the class. We finally get buffed and tbh maybe a bit too much. This nerf is ott though. Fair enough I don't mind the armor decrease as it's too easy to get max mitigation atm. The health decrease is a little harsh combined with the massive bear damage reduction. Making savage fury not affect bear form is a joke. It's not worth the tp's anymore. To nerf the mangle damage then make this not apply to maul, mangle or swipe is a joke. Why nerf improved leader of the pack too? It was hardly imba.

These changes combined with the fact that almost all the best feral druid gear can be got outside instances from quests shows that blizzard haven't a ****ing clue what feral druids should be doing. We don't scale at the moment and this nerf will **** us over completely. They say they are adding epic feral gear to the dungeons but why wasn't it there from the start? BC is a joke too. There is so much easy to get imba gear from world drops and quests that all the instances become easy and all content is done again by any decent guild. I'm very close to a permanent cancelation of my subscription because it's becoming more and more obvious that the devs haven't a ****ing clue what they are at.

Binomate

Well I've speced shadow for the time being. Two of the three priests in my guild have stoped playing due to the changes, meaning I'm the only one left. Raiding has stopped completely and now I'm solo shadow grinding. Hopefully they'll realise they've ruined the game for a lot of people with this latest patch and make some changes that affect the game in a positive way.

Made 200g last night in about 2 and a bit hours with no damage gear. I'm effectivly a naked shadow priest and I can still kill mobs 10 times faster than what I could do with +600 damage gear as a holy priest. I only wish I didn't have to sell my damage gear before I respeced so that I could afford the respec. Bought myself some damage gear with the money I made, and the damage is delicious. Now 50% of my gear has +damage. Gear that I just bought from factions I have rep with.

I was also able to do some battlegrounds last night with out wanting to slit my throat. Again, in full healing gear, I came second on the scoreboard with 22 kills and 5 deaths. It was also nice not being focus fired and targeted by everony for once. The game is actually enjoyable now. \o/

Psycopat

- "Thunder Clap" is now useable in Defensive Stance. In addition, the tooltip has been adjusted to indicate it causes additional threat.

excellent, im tired of having to be in aggresive stance to keep the agro of large amounts of mobs by using Thunder Clap, now i can be in def stance, use my threat on the main boss's and keep the agro of the little un's with the aoe, cheers blizz

Dustaz

BloodBath wrote:

Blizzard haven't a ****ing clue what they are at tbh. Especially when it comes to druids.

Rubbish.

I ran steamvaults last night with a bear tank and didnt see any difference in his tanking ability pre-patch apart from a drop in dps. He was a perfectly viable tank, the only difference being that i could actually pull aggro from him if i tried. Now maybe a druid cant MT gruul anymore but so what? Did anyone actually roll a druid to be a guilds MT? I doubt it and if they did it wasnt the most intelligent of choices.

Tanks should NOT be doing damage. As it was a druid in bear form was doing appreciable DPS. This is not how bear form was designed. I have no idea how these nerfs have affected cat form but im not seeing much druid tears on the cat form front so i assume thats still ok.

Dustaz

Just found this on the us forums

Hotfixes 3/6/07:

Flame Wreath will now allow players to remain in the flame wreath while under the effect of immunity granting abilities such as Divine Shield, etc.

The Druid ability Mangle (Bear) now generates 50% bonus threat.

The Druid ability Lacerate now deals a small amount of instant damage, generating threat, against bleed immune creatures.

While this should stem the flow of tears some, it probably wont.

Woden

There where no large changes to cat form. only where the increased damage from melee critical strikes was reduced from 15% to 10%. i have not noticed much difference due to this. cat form dps was and still is good. in fact its higher then anything i've seen on a single static target and ofc sustainable. No i don't think this is particurarly how it should be. though like the issues with warriors and bears i do think a lot of it was gear related and rogues just need better gear/weapons.

I am concerned ofc with both scaling in bear and cat. This allieviates some of the concern for bear at least

"In addition, we examined concerns about the best Feral Druid armor pieces being outdoor world quest rewards, and Druids feeling their tanking ability would not scale with better gear. We are adjusting superior and epic leather pieces designed to be used by Bear Druids and increasing the armor on many of those items, particularly raid sets. These changes, however, will not show up until patch 2.1.0. "

With regards to bear i lost about 1k hps and 2k ac not a big issue if they sort gear out for end game. Did a couple of instance runs yesterday seems ok but the mobs just not glued to me like before. Have not had a chance to try heroic yet. Came into Karazhan last night as one of our warriors was getting squashed on the Maiden and killed her first go. So ok on this front.

cance

B-K-DzR wrote:

neither warlocks,.... get an agro dump.

as stated warlocks have a 5 minute cooldown now called "soulshatter" it reduces our Agro by 50% within a radius.

we get a passive 20% agro reduction if we spec master demonology and get either a 10% reduction on afflictions or 10% on destruction depending on spec.

Dustaz wrote:

Rubbish.

I ran steamvaults last night with a bear tank and didnt see any difference in his tanking ability pre-patch apart from a drop in dps. He was a perfectly viable tank, the only difference being that i could actually pull aggro from him if i tried.

that sounds alot more reasonable, casters should be able to pull agro if they go all out. That is the challenge for us, doing huge damage but controlling it.

Agro Sticky bears pre patch were just LOL, they were agro machines and getting into the top 3 damage spots... Granted the nerf was harsh but if they can buff your cat form and leave bear alone it might balance out a little.

cance

double post

kayos

Oh the changes to Elemental Shaman.....

Finishing bosses after spending 2.5K mana FTW.

Only sitting down to drink for the 3th time after the second boss in Shadow Labs FTW.

My mana potion habit being reduced...FTW!

Being able to DPS and still maintain enough of a mana pool to fall back on healing..FTW

its so gonna get taken away from us...

BKtje

Well i ran Karazahn as MT again last night. I specced imp thunderclap and i must say it made thigns much easier. The shadow priest did tend to pull aggro from me at times but we just hit her with a blessing of salvation and that was the end of that.

On another note, i know warlocks and various other classes get threat reducing abilities but they weren't full agro dumps which is what we were talking about (well ok a 50% dump can be classed as a full one i guess if used wisely).

BloodBath

Dustaz wrote:

Rubbish.

I ran steamvaults last night with a bear tank and didnt see any difference in his tanking ability pre-patch apart from a drop in dps. He was a perfectly viable tank, the only difference being that i could actually pull aggro from him if i tried. Now maybe a druid cant MT gruul anymore but so what? Did anyone actually roll a druid to be a guilds MT? I doubt it and if they did it wasnt the most intelligent of choices.

Tanks should NOT be doing damage. As it was a druid in bear form was doing appreciable DPS. This is not how bear form was designed. I have no idea how these nerfs have affected cat form but im not seeing much druid tears on the cat form front so i assume thats still ok.

Well my main concerns were pvp. With the hotfix increases threat of mangle we're viable tanks again. Cat is still great. I still feel the nerfs were a little ott but a nerf was needed and pvp is a little more balanced now. Poor rogues and warriors still get battered though.

Horsefumbler

wat server u playing on jason?

BloodBath

A new one, Auchindoun. I had quit for about 6 months but came back for bc. You still playing the druid or something else these days?

Horsefumbler

playin a draenai shammy now

Joseph

Soo many nerfs Looks like Warriors are getting all the buffs! lol