Fianna Eireann

man1

Hi
I am doing a bit of research on Fianna Eireann and I was wondering if anyone had any information on this organisation. I am interested in the original group founded in 1909 by Bulmer Hobson and Countess Markievicz and am not at all interested in the crazy sectarian youth wing of RSF that stole the name and now call themselves "fianna eireann".
As far as I am concerned they are totally separate organisations and the original Na Fianna Eireann is now no longer in existence. Anyone any views on this???
I would love if any one had any stories from their grandparents or great grand parents who were part of this organisation.
Photos would be appreciated also.

Areas i'm interested in:

-foundation

-philosophy

-quotes from handbook

-original members

-prominent members

-links with IRB

-members on original volunteer executive council

-howth and kilcoole gun-running

-attack on magazine fort phoenix park

-dublin officer commanding shot in church street area

-executions 1916

-role in War of Indepence

-role in civil war

or anything else that might be interesting.

walrusgumble

the irish history museum (military) at collins barracks might be a pointer.

Shutuplaura

I'm not being funny but why not contact Sinn Fein's HQ in Parnell Street about this? 'm not sure that the organisation that existed in the 60's and 70's was completely different from the original because Fianna Eireann went with the Anti-treaty side during the civil-war. Perhaps they might have information or be able to put you in contact with someone else who's done research in this area. Sure it will be biased as hell but for the period you're looking for you can easily cross check any information against other sources such as a general history of the era.

If not SF then perhaps Fianna Fail because its possible the Fianna organisation was taken over by Fianna Fail as a sort of youth organisation in the 1920's. So it maybe worth giving them a shout too. otherwise, the national archive might be worth a shout on Redmonds Hill near Camden Street. They are supposed to be very helpful. I wouldn't recommend the military archive just yet as given the Fianna';s stance on the treaty I'd find it surprising if any of their surviving documents ended up with them. Of course I may be wrong there.

I'm not sure how approachable these organisations are but the most they will tell you is **** off - or perhaps try sell you a sniper at work t-shirt!

man1

Thanks guys

I have been to the national archives on bishop street, is this the one you mean. There is not much there(on fianna) and it is painstaking searching through all the documents but at least I got some information. They are very helpful aswell. I will go back when i have time. I was at cathal brugha barracks, they have a small library there that you can make an appointment for if you prove that you are a serious researcher. Was in there with 3 or 4 old professor types who looked like they had been in there for weeks with out a break.

I know there are 2 books by f.x martin "the irish volunteers" and "the howth gun running" which mention na fianna quite a lot but I cant get my hands on a copy of either. I have seen them from time to time on american online book stores but the cheapest I saw was $250. The problem is that they have been out of print since the 1960's. Dublin city library used to have copies but not anymore.

By the way I went into the sein fein HQ this morning and asked about a book or info on the subject and was told "NO" and I then asked if he knew anywhere that might have some information and he said "NO". My god they are so helpful in there.

I forgot that they only stock books of a murderous sectarian criminal drug dealing terrorist nature in there. Ah well!!!!

and I didnt buy a t-shirt.

I was thinking about the provos after that and couldnt rule out the fact that some of them and their families, if you look into their family tree and history, could have come to Ireland in the plantations. Its not impossible is it? They could have changed religion or maybe could have been catholic when they arrived. Maybe for another thread.............

Rant over!

I will no doubt get replies that Na Fianna Eireann are/were no different to the Provos... bring it on!

man1

man1 wrote:

I was thinking about the provos after that and couldnt rule out the fact that some of them and their families, if you look into their family tree and history, could have come to Ireland in the plantations. Its not impossible is it? They could have changed religion or maybe could have been catholic when they arrived. Maybe for another thread.............

http://www.family-name.co.uk/names/adams.html

mmmmmmm!!!!!

Shutuplaura

Yeah, there is an amusing argument on talk page for Gerry Adams in Wikipedia about that.

Little bit surprised they were so completely unhelpful **** them if they were.

Snickers Man

man1 wrote:

I was thinking about the provos after that and couldnt rule out the fact that some of them and their families, if you look into their family tree and history, could have come to Ireland in the plantations. Its not impossible is it? They could have changed religion or maybe could have been catholic when they arrived. Maybe for another thread.............

Well of course they did. There's been so much intermarriage between the tribes that you are bound to get Provos with good planter names (Adams, Gildernew, Sands) as well as Loyalists with good Irish names (eg Murphy, the Master Butcher)

Not to mention of course those more recent blow ins with magnificent Latin names like De Valera and Scapaticci.

And back to Fianna Eireann, whoever dreamed up that abortion of a name couldn't speak Irish very well. It should have been Fianna na hEireann.

The spiritual descendant, one supposes, of Brian from the People's Front of Judaea. Touch of the Romanes Eunt Domus about that one.

man1

Snickers Man wrote:

Well of course they did. There's been so much intermarriage between the tribes that you are bound to get Provos with good planter names (Adams, Gildernew, Sands) as well as Loyalists with good Irish names (eg Murphy, the Master Butcher)

Not to mention of course those more recent blow ins with magnificent Latin names like De Valera and Scapaticci. .

My point exactly, isnt Bertie Ahern descended from the eskimos?? and sure half the english MP's are of Irish descent.

Snickers Man wrote:

And back to Fianna Eireann, whoever dreamed up that abortion of a name couldn't speak Irish very well. It should have been Fianna na hEireann.

Why?

Ponster

There are several references to the organisation in "Easter 1916" by Charles Townshead ( a book that everyone should read ).

Fianna Eireann was originally founded by Hobson in 1902 in the Catholic Boys Hall on the Falls Road, Belfast. He waned it "to serve as a Junior Hurling League to promote the study of the Irish Language" and study the intimate link between sport and language.
He met the Counness in 1908 and together they reformed Fianna Eireann in a metting hall in Camden Street on August 16 where a hundred youths turned up. Hobson was voted president and Markievicz was only accepted by the members when Hobson explained that it was she that payed the rent of the hall. Over the ears though it was her that became the public face of the movement (Hobson returned to Belfast in 1910 and she stepped into his shoes).

- links with IRB

In 1912 the decision was taken to create a national volenteer force in the 28 counties to combat the UVF, a citizen militia which had been created to protect the north in the event of Dublin gaining Home Rule (not quite as simple as that but it'll do!)
Hobson by 1912 became chairman of the Dublin Centers Board and began preperation for a national military volunteer organisationa and "created a dedicated IRB circle for the reborn Fianna Eireann" which now included scouting, fieldcraft and shoting as part of it's training program.

-howth and kilcoole gun-running

They were used to protect the gun-runners from the DMP and RIC. He sent a section of the Fianna ('the only body of men on whose discipline I could count') with wooden batons to form a defensive barrier.

man1

Thanks for that.
Did you get that info from the book you mentioned?? I might get it.
Any idea where I might get a copy of the "irish volunteers" and "howth gun running" both by f.x martin.

I believe they were very important to the revolution/rising and the subsequent war of independence as several of the volunteer executive and IRB inner circle were fianna boys and leaders.

Pearse, who wasnt a part of fianna (although some like to think he was), said that the rising and the organisation (even though it wasnt organised well IMO) of it wouldnt have been possible if it wasnt for the fianna boys.

Some important members who are well known are Liam Mellows, Con Colbert, Eamon Martin, Padraig O'Riain, Bulmer Hobson (as you mentioned), Michael Lonergan, The Holahan Brothers, Constance Markievicz, Sean Heuston, Nora Connolly, Paddy Ward.
If anyone knows others please let me know?
Any stories that people might have from their grandparents etc, would love to hear them.
Are people happy that Republican Sein Fein now use this groups name for themselves and their youth wing?

boneless

There is actually a plaque on the house where Na Fianna were constituted on Camden Street but can only (as far as I know) be seen from the top of a double deck bus...

Have you tried the Military Archive in Cathal Brugha Barracks? They have collections of depositions from the Rising, War of Independence and Civil War. There might be something in there.

man1

Thanks Boneless

I will wander down camden street when I can to see this plaque.

Yeah I have been to Cathal Brugha barracks, had to make an appointmnent and was waiting for a long time till I could get one but eventually got there and spent a day there, it has quite alot of documents, personal accounts etc so it helped a lot.
Will probably go back there when I get time as I didnt see everything in their archives.
Was in bishop st archives as well, that was useful.

paddyholahan

Take a look at this....http://bluwiki.com/go/Holahan_Family...it's a wiki that shows some information on Paddy and Garry Holahan. Lots of involvement in Howth, Fianna Eireann etc.

MarchDub

man1 wrote: »

I was thinking about the provos after that and couldnt rule out the fact that some of them and their families, if you look into their family tree and history, could have come to Ireland in the plantations. Its not impossible is it? They could have changed religion or maybe could have been catholic when they arrived.

Under no circumstances could the planters have been Catholic when they arrived during the Plantation.

The "Printed Book" of 1610 spelled out very clearly the conditions for settlement. Part of the specifics - and the wording was very specific - that the settlers not be Catholic nor have any close relatives who might travel with them who were. The purpose of the plantation was to rid the area of Ulster of Catholicism.

brianthebard

OP did you look at newspaper reports from the time? If you know when they were set up (date) and some important events, chances are you will find reference to them in the Irish times, and maybe the Sligo Champion given the Countess' involvement.

Lizzykins

My grandfather-born in 1903-joined Fianna Eireann in 1917. He told me about training where Countess Markievicz took out a revolver and laid it on the table before going on to talk to the boys. I wish I had talked to him more about it. They called the Countess Madame and were very much in awe of her. I wonder did anyone keep a list of members that you could look up?

walrusgumble

man1 wrote: »

Thanks for that.
Did you get that info from the book you mentioned?? I might get it.
Any idea where I might get a copy of the "irish volunteers" and "howth gun running" both by f.x martin.

I believe they were very important to the revolution/rising and the subsequent war of independence as several of the volunteer executive and IRB inner circle were fianna boys and leaders.

Pearse, who wasnt a part of fianna (although some like to think he was), said that the rising and the organisation (even though it wasnt organised well IMO) of it wouldnt have been possible if it wasnt for the fianna boys.

Some important members who are well known are Liam Mellows, Con Colbert, Eamon Martin, Padraig O'Riain, Bulmer Hobson (as you mentioned), Michael Lonergan, The Holahan Brothers, Constance Markievicz, Sean Heuston, Nora Connolly, Paddy Ward.
If anyone knows others please let me know?
Any stories that people might have from their grandparents etc, would love to hear them.
Are people happy that Republican Sein Fein now use this groups name for themselves and their youth wing?

sean lemass, professor john horgan wrote a book on him, good details about the start of fianna fail and the difference of opinion between dev and him. lemass wanted to simply call the party the republican party. he even commented on how at first the party was quasi democratic (lemass was still in the ira shortly before entering the dail, got expelled, like tom barry-though different circumstances)

walrusgumble

Lizzykins wrote: »

My grandfather-born in 1903-joined Fianna Eireann in 1917. He told me about training where Countess Markievicz took out a revolver and laid it on the table before going on to talk to the boys. I wish I had talked to him more about it. They called the Countess Madame and were very much in awe of her. I wonder did anyone keep a list of members that you could look up?

i wonder does william wylie's account of her during her court martial stand up? (she was meant to have freaked out begging not to be executed as she was only a woman) either way even if it does, it still should not taint this great woman

walrusgumble

man1 wrote: »

Thanks Boneless

I will wander down camden street when I can to see this plaque.

Yeah I have been to Cathal Brugha barracks, had to make an appointmnent and was waiting for a long time till I could get one but eventually got there and spent a day there, it has quite alot of documents, personal accounts etc so it helped a lot.
Will probably go back there when I get time as I didnt see everything in their archives.
Was in bishop st archives as well, that was useful.

silly question it probably is, but isn't brugha''s barrack an active one, its harldy like collins barrack (musuem open to all) so public can view the documents (appointment of course)?

swallows

Hi,
At Brendan Behan`s funeral in Glasnevin, March 1964, a young member of Fianna Eireann, Peter McNulty, who was then 14 yeas old, sounded the Last Post and Reveille. He would be 61 years old now. Does anybody know if he about? Can he be contacted? We are conducting a research project. Thanks.

Fuinseog

man1 wrote: »

Thanks guys

I have been to the national archives on bishop street, is this the one you mean. There is not much there(on fianna) and it is painstaking searching through all the documents but at least I got some information. They are very helpful aswell. I will go back when i have time. I was at cathal brugha barracks, they have a small library there that you can make an appointment for if you prove that you are a serious researcher. Was in there with 3 or 4 old professor types who looked like they had been in there for weeks with out a break.

I know there are 2 books by f.x martin "the irish volunteers" and "the howth gun running" which mention na fianna quite a lot but I cant get my hands on a copy of either. I have seen them from time to time on american online book stores but the cheapest I saw was $250. The problem is that they have been out of print since the 1960's. Dublin city library used to have copies but not anymore.

By the way I went into the sein fein HQ this morning and asked about a book or info on the subject and was told "NO" and I then asked if he knew anywhere that might have some information and he said "NO". My god they are so helpful in there.

I forgot that they only stock books of a murderous sectarian criminal drug dealing terrorist nature in there. Ah well!!!!

and I didnt buy a t-shirt.

I was thinking about the provos after that and couldnt rule out the fact that some of them and their families, if you look into their family tree and history, could have come to Ireland in the plantations. Its not impossible is it? They could have changed religion or maybe could have been catholic when they arrived. Maybe for another thread.............

Rant over!

I will no doubt get replies that Na Fianna Eireann are/were no different to the Provos... bring it on!

I guess the tone makes the music when dealing with these people. If they sense you think they are scum, which you obviously do, then it comes as little surprise that you received a frosty reception.