1080P on HDMI, with VGA to HDMI convertor?

xanthor

AFAIK, the 360 is only capable of 1080P over VGA, but i've heard complaints about oversampling.


So has anyone tried the 360 on 1080P with a VGA to HDMI convertor? and what did you think of the results?

Thanks

Vegeta

I don't have 1080p television I'm afraid 720p samsung

sickened

Julez

xanthor wrote:

VGA to HDMI convertor?

Doesn't excist! Not a simple one anyway, you'd have to get a little box that probably needs to be plugged to be powered and it would cost €200+
Besides all the games are done to a max of 1080i it would just be HD-DVD that would have a slight improvement and maybe the menus!

jesus_thats_gre

I read something during the week that MS has managed to get 1080p running over Component.


EDIT: http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/blogs/turn_10s_forza_motorsport_blog/archive/2007/02/12/46731.aspx

in case folks do run the game upscaled to 1080p. Uh, you guys do know that Xbox 360 does 1080p now over your standard component cables, right?

xanthor

Having sniffed around elsewhere, it does turn out that VGA to HDMI convertors are pretty scarce, and the one i was looking at doesn't actually work with the 360.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I read something during the week that MS has managed to get 1080p running over Component.

Needless to say, i missed that one - thanks for the heads up.

jamieh

Hey,

I have a Sony X-series tv which supports 1080p, but only through HDMI.

Is there any way I can use 1080p with my 360 or do I have to make do with 1080i?

McDermotX

jamieh wrote:

Hey,

I have a Sony X-series tv which supports 1080p, but only through HDMI.

Is there any way I can use 1080p with my 360 or do I have to make do with 1080i?

The whole 1080i/1080p on 1080p displays in misunderstood..
1080p displays, like the Sony X Series, upscale all input sources to 1080p and de-interlace all input signals.
If you look at the info display on screens such as these its referring to the signal the display is receiving (such as 1080i with a 360 over component), not what is being displayed. The X series just won't accept 1080p input apart from over HDMI.
If you output a 1080i signal from your 360, the TV (as opposed to the console) will de-interlace this signal again to a progressive output, effectively giving you a 1080p picture.

Headshot

my new 1080p tv will be arriving to me hopefully this monday coming

the 360 can do 1080p over component, looking forward to see what my 360 looks like on 1080p over component

looking forward to see what my ps3 looks in 1080p too

McDermotX

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote:

my new 1080p tv will be arriving to me hopefully this monday coming

the 360 can do 1080p over component, looking forward to see what my 360 looks like on 1080p over component

looking forward to see what my ps3 looks in 1080p too

Nice one,
I will say that the 360 and PS3 look very impressive on 1080p screens, and I've always thought the Component output from the 360 was more impressive than the VGA.
The VGA seems very hit and miss, with some people having more success than others depending on their displays. Always found its washed out look to be detrimental compared to the punch of component, and they are very close to one another it fine detail, so its 1080 over component for me every time.
Anyone using the HD-DVD addon will also appreciate the difference 1080p component brings to the table.
The PS3 HDMI does have the edge over its component output, and 1080p titles such as RR7, Tekken (even with its dodgy textures), Blast Factor, GTHD etc really pop off the screen. But its subjective again, with some people's displays not showing real-world difference between HDMI and Component.
BD playback is also stunning at its native pixel-matching mode.

And despite what some people think, there is a very noticable difference between 720p and 1080p, but it will come down to screen size and viewing distance. So anybody thinking of buying into 1080p displays will need to consider spending that little bit extra to appreciate the difference, or sit 2ft from the screen

Noreik

watch out with the 1080p numbers the games a touted to play at 1080p60 1080 resolution at 60 frames per second even if a tv has a FULLHD1080p logo this does'nt meen that the telly supports a 1080p signal running at 60 frames per second it may only support 1080p at 24 or 30 frames per second D'oh

mcgovern

1080p will most likely look crap on PS3, as only 2 games are native 1080p and the PS3 upscaler, is from what I've heard, lacking, to say the least.

McDermotX

Bit of confusion here,
screens like the Sony 1080p series (W and X) are fully capable of 1080p at 60fps..
I think some people are confusing this with the ratified 1080p TV transmission standard of 30fps MAX (trialing in some places in Japan).....at the moment, this is the max allowed for TV signal transmission across current bandwidth standards......1080p/60fps video will have to be achieved through different means (codecs etc..) as the bandwidth required is astronomical..
1080p/60fps on the likes of the PS3 and 360 is perfectly viewable at 60fps on said FullHD screens......games such as Virtua Tennis 3 on both systems are already hitting 60fps, as are multiple titles on the PS3 (GTHD, TekkenHD etc etc..)..

In fact, the problem with nearly all 1080p screens is that they don't support 1080p/24fps natively (apart from some Pioneer), resulting in the 3:2 pulldown effect when playing back Blu-ray and HD-DVD material which is filmed at the standard 24fps. Weaker screens can introduce the so-called "judder" effect with this as they have to convert to a 60Hz ouput (this is where the 3:2 gets its name)..
Some screens are better at this than others of course, and some people cannot even detect this judder if its even there..

McDermotX

mcgovern wrote:

1080p will most likely look crap on PS3, as only 2 games are native 1080p and the PS3 upscaler, is from what I've heard, lacking, to say the least.

Without wanting to start a PS3 debate on an Xbox forum, that is a little short-sighted..
1080p on PS3 (and 360) is stunning, both for games and Blu-ray playback and is a very welcome addition to the system..
There are certainly more than 2 games as well...

Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Full Auto 2: Battlelines
NBA 2k7 (60fps)
NBA '07
College Hoops 2K7
Gundam wing
Ridge Racer 7 (60fps)
Tekken DR (60fps)
NBA Street
Virtua Tennis 3 (60fps)

Downloadable:
Blast Factor (60fps)
Cash Guns Chaos DLX (60fps)
Go! Soduku
Grad Turismo: HD (60fps)
flOw (60fps)
Q*Bert
Super Rub a Dub (60fps)

Titles such as Sonic and VF5 are capable of displaying in 1080p, but it using the PS3's internal horizontal scaler to scale a 960x1080p image from the frame buffer in order to achieve a 1080p output (the games are natively 720p, 1080 support was added for compatibility reasons for older CRT HDTVs in the US)

As stated above in the previous comment, all games work fine on 1080p screens at 60fps (if programmed that way of course) as does the likes of VT3 on 360..

mcgovern

ign wrote:

Will the PS3 upscale DVDs and/or PSone and PS2 games?
Sony has officially stated that the PlayStation 3 will not upscale DVDs. As far as PSone and PS2 games are concerned, Kaz Hirai has stated in an interview with IGN that they will play "in their original form". We would take this to mean that they won't be upscaled either, but Sony has not made an official statement either way.

tv.com wrote:

Add to that the fact that Xbox 360 will upscale everything (games and DVDs) to 1080p over VGA, and the PS3 doesn't even appear to have an upscaler (it doesn't even upscale DVDs! ), and it's pretty clear that Sony's HD implementation is, in a word, crap.

tv.com wrote:

But the fact remains that 1080p does not matter in this generation, and even if it did, Xbox 360 does it better than PS3 does.

So it seems that the PS3 won't properly upscale 720p games (the majority) to 1080p. Add this to the fact that an awful lot of people are having trouble getting the PS3 to output at 1080p (even on 1080p capable TVs).

McDermotX

mcgovern wrote:

So it seems that the PS3 won't properly upscale 720p games (the majority) to 1080p. Add this to the fact that an awful lot of people are having trouble getting the PS3 to output at 1080p (even on 1080p capable TVs).

???
This is was known a long time ago..
The PS3 does not upscale anything at the moment (apart from the aforementioned horizontal scaling of Sonic and VF5)..
The ability to upscale DVD and PS1/PS2 games may come in the future, but its obviously not that high of a priority on Sony's part - although some of their plans for DVD upscaling sound rather good, as opposed to the 360's decidely average approach to DVD scaling..
Bottom line is, if you want good DVD upscaling.....do not use a console to to it..

Apart from VT3 and NBA (which are native 1080p), the 360 needs to use its internal scaler to scale the output from the frame buffer to the users selected resolution (whether thats 720p, 1080i, 1080p) and in some cases (PGR3) needs to scale a below-HD signal to at least 720p..
This works fine in the most part, but there have been instances of frame-rate when scaling, but the vast majority are grand..

The PS3 1080p games are not scaled in anyway, they are natively 1080p as in rendered 1920x1080. Games that are 720p are outputted at 720p pure (which accounts for 99% of HDTVs out there anyway, which will display 768p nearly always better than 1080i downscaled to 768p). Those with 1080p displays will allow their displays to upscale the image via the TV's internal scaler..
i.e. 1080p displays, believe it or not, only display a 1080p image.......this is a bit people always overlook..........if you feed a 1080p display a 1080i signal (as in a 360 to a Sony X series over component), the TV will de-interlace the signal an output a 1080p Progressive image, the image output is effectively halted in order to de-interlace the signal..
Same rings true for PS3 720p games, they are effectively scaled to fill a 1080p display by the TV internal scaler, but in most cases TV scaling is nowhere near the quality of a dedicated scaler..

As for people having trouble outputting 1080p to 1080p displays, that can only be down to user error or improper equipment (or non-direct HDMI connection). Don't forget that a lot of the early 1080p displays will not accept 1080p input, which is clearly marked in those product's manuals and specs. The likes of the Sony Xs do not have these issues.....it is not a PS3 issue..

But the fact remains that 1080p does not matter in this generation, and even if it did, Xbox 360 does it better than PS3 does.

As for that statement, I don't know where start with that. Ridiculous and uninformed is probably the easiest.
MS's inclusion of HDMI with the new Elite just about stops short of an admission of the 360's issues with proper 1080p HD setups. VGA output on the 360 is a hit and miss affair depending mainly on the users display, component is in the same boat with regards to proper 1080p output (a minute percentage of 1080p displays are capable of 1080p over component). The only way around this is to include a HDMI connection with the new Elite (although they fouled up not including a 1.3 connection with regards to lossless sound for HD-DVD).
Even on a direct comparison on VT3, (bought the PS3 version, but borrowed a copy of the 360 one), there is a detectable improvement in definition with the PS3 version (may be down to HDMI, may not), but then there are slowdown issues evident in doubles/later level barrel minigames with the 360 version (rendered in 1080p) , and no issues at all with the PS3 one in 1080p..
Sumo even admitted to having to reprogram the physics engine to mimic the AM2 developed PS3 version..
The 360 version of course makes up for this with online play, but that is a discussion for elsewhere..

As for 1080p not being important, that is almost laughable, and I think anyone who has a large enough 1080p display would agree. Blu-ray and HD-DVD playback at 1080p is stunning, as are a few of the 1080p games out there compared to 720p rendered versions. Sony looked ahead, and like it or not, the PS3 is perceived as a 1080p device by the masses (whether the current amount of 1080p games justify it or not), MS recognised this by updating the 360's scaler to support 1080p and, in part, by their inclusion of HDMI with the Elite..
Don't get me wrong, 720p games out there look stunning as well, as other posters have mentioned, and for the time being the majority of games on both systems will be rendered as such......but 2 years from now, people will demand more..

Kinda drifting off the original subject of the thread now

Ciaran500

McDermotX wrote:

Apart from VT3 and NBA (which are native 1080p), the 360 needs to use its internal scaler to scale the output from the frame buffer to the users selected resolution (whether thats 720p, 1080i, 1080p)

All games (except PGR3) are rendered at 720p so don't need any scaling.

McDermotX wrote:

This works fine in the most part, but there have been instances of frame-rate when scaling, but the vast majority are grand..

I assume you mean frame rate drops. This should be nothing to do with the scaling as the 360 does it all on dedicated hardware.

McDermotX wrote:

The PS3 1080p games are not scaled in anyway, they are natively 1080p as in rendered 1920x1080. Games that are 720p are outputted at 720p pure (which accounts for 99% of HDTVs out there anyway, which will display 768p nearly always better than 1080i downscaled to 768p). Those with 1080p displays will allow their displays to upscale the image via the TV's internal scaler..

Just like the 360 so

Vegeta

completely off topic but isn't digital TV going to be 720p, I think this would drive the decisions of the majority of consumers rather than video games

1080p TVs are dearer for a start, you need a big one to notice its 1080p (dearer again) and have to sit close to notice the difference.

1080p is overkill.

McDermotX

Ciaran500 wrote:

All games (except PGR3) are rendered at 720p so don't need any scaling.


I assume you mean frame rate drops. This should be nothing to do with the scaling as the 360 does it all on dedicated hardware.


Just like the 360 so

May have been slightly taken out of context in the reading on the entire post.....

the 360 needs to use its internal scaler to scale the output from the frame buffer to the users selected resolution (whether thats 720p, 1080i, 1080p)

although I should have left out the scaling to 720p from the first bit (that is only the case for PGR3) , any 720p game has to be scaled to 1080i/p if the 360 is set to the above..

Tomb Raider was one such example of slight frame rate drops, when output at 1080i in comparison to 720p (especially in later levels), not much, but there was a hit. Its not so much an issue, so I didn't focus on it too much, but there is an overhead involved in the implementation, thankfully its imperceptible in the vast majority of titles as I stated..

Not sure what the confusion was with the last bit Ciaran, as I already stated that the 360 versions of VT3 and NBA are natively 1080p. All I said was that the PS3 (without a similar internal scaler, although it does contain one) needs to render 1080p natively for any game wishing to display in 1080p........not to be confused with all 360 games (bar the aforementioned two) outputting in 1080 courtesy of the scaler tweaking output from the frame buffer..


HD TV is transmitted in either 720p or 1080i....1080p over current system is near impossible until codec delivery is improved, due to bandwidth constraints amongst other things. Some providers in Japan are testing 1080p over transmission, but only at 30fps..
As I mentioned in a earlier post, there are certain conditions needed for proper 1080p enjoyment, namely screen size and viewing distance..

And despite what some people think, there is a very noticable difference between 720p and 1080p, but it will come down to screen size and viewing distance. So anybody thinking of buying into 1080p displays will need to consider spending that little bit extra to appreciate the difference, or sit 2ft from the screen

1080p is certainly not overkill with the proper setup, as anyone who enjoys home theater will tell you, and too say its overkill is a little backward and, even more so, considering MS moves to introduce the standard to more potential 360 owners (both from a marketing point of view and tech standpoint)

Technology needs to move forward, and 1080p is the developing standard in HDTV, as can be clearly demonstrated in the LCD/Plasma manufacturers 2007 ranges, the drop in 1080p display entry price, the adoption in HD-DVD, Blu-ray standards, 1080p Projector prices falling etc etc..
I think Sony and MS, to a certain degree, should be applauded for bringing 1080p to the masses with both consoles..

mcgovern

McDermotX wrote:

Same rings true for PS3 720p games, they are effectively scaled to fill a 1080p display by the TV internal scaler, but in most cases TV scaling is nowhere near the quality of a dedicated scaler..

So what you are saying is that on 720p games (the majority), that for the X360 outputting to a 1080p TV, the X360s dedicated scalar will do the job (and do it well) but on the PS3, the TV itself will have to do it?
Its seems pretty obvious to me which one will look better.

McDermotX wrote:

As for people having trouble outputting 1080p to 1080p displays, that can only be down to user error or improper equipment (or non-direct HDMI connection). Don't forget that a lot of the early 1080p displays will not accept 1080p input, which is clearly marked in those product's manuals and specs. The likes of the Sony Xs do not have these issues.....it is not a PS3 issue..

You only have to look at the Playstation forums here or anywhere else to see that it is a PS3 issue, as these tvs work fine for other HDMI inputs, but not on the PS3.


Edit: Tags

McDermotX

mcgovern wrote:

So what you are saying is that on 720p games (the majority), that for the X360 outputting to a 1080p TV, the X360s dedicated scalar will do the job (and do it well) but on the PS3, the TV itself will have to do it?
Its seems pretty obvious to me which one will look better.



You only have to look at the Playstation forums here or anywhere else to see that it is a PS3 issue, as these tvs work fine for other HDMI inputs, but not on the PS3.


Edit: Tags

Seems we're now miles off the original topic

Depends on the display's scaler McGovern....some are better than others..
The likes of the cheaper, low-end 1080p sets will do a decent job, but obviously higher end Bravias and Pios do better. It may be hard to tell any decrepency between 720p output on the 360 and 1080i output on a decent 1080p, in that case, the display is doing an excellent job of upscaling the 720p, but with another model it may be more obvious or more likely on a bigger display (projector)..
Keep in mind, that with true 1080p rendering the difference will be a lot more noticable above 720p upscaled..
The problem is you're comparing apples and oranges when trying to compare between 360 and PS3 outputs (different games, connections etc)..

The "dedicated scalers" I was actually referring to are the likes of the separate, home cinema Lumagens etc etc (big money)..
The likes of a frame buffer scaler (like the 360) is a completely different kettle of fish..


Keep in my mind we're on an Xbox forum here, so lets quit this now, but I've been dealing with the PS3 since last Nov (and 1080p long before that) and I'm very confident in stating there are no issues with the PS3 outputting to 1080p displays through direct HDMI connectivity. Any issues that may have arisen are due to individual issues relating to non-compliant 1080p screens, HDCP protocols, DVI-HDMI convertors, HDMI amps, switching to and from different displays etc etc......this is not an issue with the PS3 per se(apart from any usual hardware fails) on the whole, more from equipment issues and user ignorance..
HDMI handshaking is a very cloudy area, especially with older HDTV, and if you spend any time around Home Cinema forums you'll see people having similar issues with HD-DVD/Blu-ray players etc etc..