Trade Union Leaders at SF Conference

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
If this were in the past, it would be the very recent past. "Dragging up the past" is never a problem; it should be discussed. SFIRA should justify their actions. "Dragging up the past" in this context is used as a rhetorical device to prevent the questioning of SFIRA.

However, it is not in the past. As I've often said, I SAW the IRA marching at the head of a parade in Dublin last year.

If you think a march consitutes military action never come here in July.

If any of these SF members knew anything about murders of Trade Unionists well then there are two perfectly decent police forces to question them. I fail to see the piont of of having jack OConnor asking SF these questions. What you want isto disrupt with rheotoric a conference where I can only assume SF where trying to move along with the peace process and Political issues on both sides of the border.

The other night on Spotlight Gerry Adams without reservation stated if anyone has a problem or sees anything criminal they should call the PSNI end of Story.

If you believe any of these people are murders go to your local Gardai Station and report your evidence.

I understand the past is recent but the past is still the past unless you and everyone else fail to let it drift into that.

FTA69

As I've often said, I SAW the IRA marching at the head of a parade in Dublin last year.

No you didn't, you saw a number of colour parties marching, the majority of whom had nothing to do with the IRA, I've seen fifteen year old girls marching in those things, they're simply representations. Colour parties used to represent the IRA but now they're simply a mark of tradition more than anything. You'd see similar carry on at the Fianna Fáil march in Bodenstown.

Come on, don't attempt to dignify what happened. The Le Mon victims had to be shovelled into bags, Gerry McCabe etc. etc.

You don't need to tell me about incidents that occurred during the war, I'm well acquainted with them. All sides committed atrocities. The issue at hand was your suggestion that SF be boycotted by trade unions, which really is silly considering were actually supportive of trade unions when other parties and groups weren't.

SFIRA, having been defeated militarily

I wouldn't say they were militarily defeated, they just compromised themselves politically. Militarily the situation was a stalemate.

Would Jack O'Connor attend ANY party rally? I hope not. I hope this was a singular error.

It depends on your view of what trade unions are for, I would say they should be there for the advancement of a worker's agenda, and working with socialistic parties should be a part of that.

Jackie laughlin

Don't be silly. Of course I don't think a march constitutes military action but a military parade constitutes a public statement.

I've never seen a jack booted private army at a FF gathering but what I saw at the head of the SFIRA march most certainly was not a colour party.

Yes, murders were comitted by loyalists and by state personnel but by far the greatest number were murdered by the IRA. Indeed, they murdered more catholics than anyone else.

One of the people jailed for the manslaughter of Gerry McCabe is due out soon. Will he come on TV and tell the full story including who ordered the attack? Marin McGuinness admits to commanding the IRA in Derry. Will he confess to ordering murders or will he deny it and say who did?

You know, I was becoming bothered at how far this was drifting off topic but then I think that Jack O'Connor, a SIPTU official, mixed with these people and pretended that they had no questions to answer.

K-9

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Yes, murders were comitted by loyalists and by state personnel but by far the greatest number were murdered by the IRA. Indeed, they murdered more catholics than anyone else.

One of the people jailed for the manslaughter of Gerry McCabe is due out soon. Will he come on TV and tell the full story including who ordered the attack? Marin McGuinness admits to commanding the IRA in Derry. Will he confess to ordering murders or will he deny it and say who did?

You know, I was becoming bothered at how far this was drifting off topic but then I think that Jack O'Connor, a SIPTU official, mixed with these people and pretended that they had no questions to answer.

I presume he was addressing the conference as a SIPTU official. SIPTU have obviously moved on and think the past is the past. If the DUP Can eventually countenance power sharing (eventually) with SF I can't see why a SIPTU official can't address a SF conference.

In The Gerry McCabe case the criminals did serve their time and had a legal trial. I don't want to go off topic but their early release shouldn't have been an issue, ever. The IRA made sure to issue statements at the time that the robbery was not sanctioned by them. It was just as much the Govts. fault as SF's to suggest that they could be released.

On Martin McGuinness, again it depends on your viewpoint and it's another thread, but he has brought alot of hardline republicans with him on the peace process exactly because of who he was 20/30 years ago.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Don't be silly. Of course I don't think a march constitutes military action but a military parade constitutes a public statement.

The irish republic was founded by the Efforts of the IRA there will always be marches and parades of this nature. Whats silly is to connect them to SF every time someone dons a balaclava and Green pants.

On my last count SF held 8 seats in the Dail and they have aquired 25 seats in the North thats a pretty big endorsement from a free electorate. SIPTU are completly correct in dealing with them they are no longer a fringe group.

FTA69

I've never seen a jack booted private army at a FF gathering but why I saw at the head of the SFIRA march most certainly was not a colour party.

As I said the colour parties (they were carrying flags of the four provinces, the tricolour and the Starry Plough) are simply representations. They aren't supposed to insinuate they're the IRA and in most respects they aren't even IRA Volunteers in the first place.

Yes, murders were comitted by loyalists and by state personnel but by far the greatest number were murdered by the IRA. Indeed, they murdered more catholics than anyone else.

About half the deaths in the conflict were caused by the IRA, the other half consisted of the British Army, Loyalists and to a lesser extent the RUC. Percentage wise the majority of those killed by the IRA were combatants while the vast majority of those killed by the British Army and their proxy forces in Loyalism were Catholic civilians.

One of the people jailed for the manslaughter of Gerry McCabe is due out soon. Will he come on TV and tell the full story including who ordered the attack?

Probably not considering Michael will have served his sentence in full and will want to get on with his life.

Jackie laughlin

A tiny proportion of IRA victims were "other than civilian". The IRA killed more Catholics than any other group.

I know a colour party when I see one and I did not see a colour party.


I would like all of the killers and conspirators tried and jailed. I want those in the British forces who colluded in murder tried and jailed. I want those in SFIRA who colluded in murder tried and jailed. If SFIRA are serious about giving support to the Garda and the PSNI, they will inform.

I'm sure many "ordinary decent criminals" would love to forget the past and avoid investigation but it's not on. Similarly SFIRA members guilty of murder and/or conspiracy to murder will have to face the courts.

It is a regretable fact that SFIRA is no longer a fringe group. They enjoy significant support. Though not comparable in terms of of their behaviour, C. Haughey and M. Lowry enjoyed support. Support doesn't make crime acceptable.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I would like all of the killers and conspirators tried and jailed. I want those in the British forces who colluded in murder tried and jailed. I want those in SFIRA who colluded in murder tried and jailed. If SFIRA are serious about giving support to the Garda and the PSNI, they will inform.

I agree however none of these aims would be brought about by Jack OConnor making speeches at the SF Confernce.

What you want is each side to prostate themselves in front of the other , this wont happen ever and trying to force them to do so would plow us back to the past.

We have gone in circles long enough and will have to agree to differ.

Jackie laughlin

I simply think it outrageous that Jack O'Connor would avoid mention of "the elephant in the room" and pretent that he was addressing, say, the PDs.

I don't want anyone prostrated and ritually humiliated; I just want criminals brought to justice.

Frankly, as soon as this "peace process" is sorted out one way or another, I think some of the better journalists and media outlets will take the gloves off and begin to tell truths which the police forces will find impossible to ignore.

FTA69

A tiny proportion of IRA victims were "other than civilian".

I'm sorry Jackie you're actually wrong. The IRA killed about 1600 people, roughly 640 of them were British Army and around 630 were RUC.

I know a colour party when I see one and I did not see a colour party.

Well that's what it was, I was at that march too, you can call it whatever you want.

Jackie laughlin I simply think it outrageous that Jack O'Connor would avoid mention of "the elephant in the room" and pretent that he was addressing, say, the PDs.

So addressing a left-wing group is a travesty for a trade unionist you say, but you've no problem with O'Connor talking to the PDs, the most anti-union party in the country?

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
No, it would be entirely appropriate for Jack O'Connor to go to a PD conference and attack the neo-liberalism which characterises the PDs. It would be outrageous if he were to go to a PD conference and ignore the PD's history and defining characteristic.

I most certainly was not at the march. I saw the march. I wouldn't know the difference between a company and a platoon but there was a significant number of jack booted, military and they were marching.

There are quite a few people who tabulate the killings in the "NI conflict". Take a look at Malcolm Sutton's An Index of Deaths from the Conflict in Northern Ireland. There's a useful feature which allows any pair of features to be cross-indexed. Anyway, the IRA were the largest killers of Catholics at 340; their nearest rivals were the UVF at 278. The IRA killed c. 1,000 Crown forces, c. 520 civilians, c. 140 "Republicans", c. 30 Loyalist paramilitaries and 7 Irish security members. There are other sources giving different figures but the thrust remains the same.

Who commanded the IRA's Belfast Brigade to fix fuel, paint and explosives to the Le Mon restaurant in order to cause terrible burns to the citizens inside? Should SFIRA turn in the perpetrators and their leader/s to the PSNI?

FTA69

I saw the march. I wouldn't know the difference between a company and a platoon but there was a significant number of jack booted, military and they were marching.

There is no such titles in the IRA. Secondly as I said colour parties often wear garb of that sort, it's a representation, its not supposed to be the IRA and most of the crowd doing those aren't even IRA members.

the IRA were the largest killers of Catholics at 340; their nearest rivals were the UVF at 278.

A skewed statistic considering the UDA and British Army also killed over 150 Catholic civilians, which would mean Loyalists were the biggest killers of Catholics, and of course they were armed and informed by the state.

The IRA killed c. 1,000 Crown forces, c. 520 civilians

Therefore you'll admit that the majority of those killed by the IRA were combatants and that your previous posts saying that a "small percentage were other than civilian" was wrong?

c. 140 "Republicans

Most of these were actually IRA Volunteers who blew themselves up while preparing explosives, how this equates with the IRA killing them is a loss to me. The rest were touts, in which case they weren't actually Republicans. A handful would have been IPLO or "Official" IRA.

Who commanded the IRA's Belfast Brigade to fix fuel, paint and explosives to the Le Mon restaurant in order to cause terrible burns to the citizens inside?

Incendiary bombs aren't prepared to kill people, and La Mon was an accident commonly regretted within the IRA itself. In fairness jackie you don't seem to even begin to understand the Republican mentality nor the logic behind their actions.

Should SFIRA turn in the perpetrators and their leader/s to the PSNI?

Of course not, I don't believe anyone should be touting to the PSNI personally. Besides, there's no point seeking retribution for every incident that occurred during the conflict, otherwise we would be stuck in that process for scenarios.

Jackie laughlin

I didn't mean to give the impression that I tthought "platoon" and "company" were part of the IRA structure, though they do love their pretend-army ranks like, "OC", "Brigade", "Volunteer", "quartermaster" etc. The point i was making is that there was a greater presence than necessitated by a colour party and they were asserting a military presence. Be sensible, peaceful groups protesting aren't lead by "soldiers" of a private army or even by uniformed colour parties.

Yes, I was wrong to say that a "tiny percentage of IRA victims were other than civilians". If I were to approximate on the figures I used in my last post, I would have to say that about one third of IRA victims were soldiers. The rest were police officers, ordinary citizens, anyone the IRA cared to label an "informer", rival pseudo-republicans, etc. We can quibble too about who killed the most Catholics. The point is that the IRA's list of victims portrays more of a blood lust than a policy.


La Mon wasn't attacked with an incendiary bomb. An incendiary bomb when used by terrorists is meant to destroy property and livlihoods, while minimising casualties. The La Mon bomb was designed to cause human casualties and to leave the survivors horribly burned. Anyone with a shred of self respect would inform on the perpetrators, their commanders and associates.

I make a point of referring to SFIRA as pseudo-republicans and I try very hard to understand their mentality. There is no discernible logic behind their actions and that is apparent when their targetting is scrutnised.

Are you saying that all the murders and conspiracies to murder should be forgotten? What about the collusion with loyalist murders and Bloody Sunday?

FTA69

Be sensible, peaceful groups protesting aren't lead by "soldiers" of a private army or even by uniformed colour parties.

Fianna Fáil have colour parties of a similar nature.

The rest were police officers, ordinary citizens,

Ordinary citizens who collude with death squads, carry automatic weapons, wear flak jackets and drive in armoured cars. Would you describe the RIC of the 20s as "ordinary citizens" too? The police were as much combatants as the brits ever were.

The La Mon bomb was designed to cause human casualties and to leave the survivors horribly burned.

Put yourself in the IRA's shoes, why would they want to do that? What possible point would it serve, and why did they seek to avoid casualties on other occassions if they had such a blood lust? Do you think every killing by the IRA was intentional and premeditated?

Are you saying that all the murders and conspiracies to murder should be forgotten?

No, I believe in a truth and reconciliation process myself.

Jackie laughlin

FF most certainly do not have colour parties like that, though they have a residual fondness for strutting about and worshipping the dead.

There was a comma in there. It was a list. I was differentiating between police officers and ordinary civilians. My views on murderers in uniform and collusion with paramilitaries don't need to be repeated.

I think the police generally carrying weapons, wearing flak jackets and using armoured cars could be described as prudent. How would you behave if your life were constantly threatened?

I don't think that all IRA killings were intentional. Neither do I think they cared very much who got killed. I can find little evidence that they tried to minimise casualties. Anyway, military fantasists who think they are fighting a war would try to maximise casualties. SFIRA have a problem identifying their enemy.

Does "truth and reconciliation" mean letting off police officers who colluded in murder and similarly letting off the Bloody Sunday killers?

FTA69

FF most certainly do not have colour parties like that

They have similar get-ups at their Bodenstown commemoration every year.

I think the police generally carrying weapons, wearing flak jackets and using armoured cars could be described as prudent. How would you behave if your life were constantly threatened?

The cops were well able to threaten people's lives as well, the fact remains the RUC were combatants and were as much "ordinary civilians" as the Black and Tan "police units" were in the 20s.

I can find little evidence that they tried to minimise casualties.

The majority of IRA bombs went off without injuring anyone, this was as a result of warnings.

Anyway, military fantasists who think they are fighting a war would try to maximise casualties.

Not when they were also fighting a propaganda war to borrow a phrase from Ted Heath. They sought to maximise military casualties, but they aren't fools, and they knew a high civilian death toll would damage the reputation and propaganda on which they depended.

Does "truth and reconciliation" mean letting off police officers who colluded in murder and similarly letting off the Bloody Sunday killers?

It means the disclosure of truth. Not banging people up for actions they committed in a war which we are trying to bring to an end.

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
Are you serious? You would let police officers who colluded in murder go free, if they told the truth!!

The FF militarists are oul fellas with a few medals. Some of them might be retired terrorists. The IRA exists and marches and no one says openly what it is for.

I certainly distinguish between police officers and ordinary civilians.

I'm not aware of a source which categorises IRA bombs by warning and casualties caused. They certainly managed on some occasions to cause big bangs with little effect and on other occasions to destroy buildings, putting people out of work, and yet avoid casualties. However, they also set out to kill and main and were frequently successful.

FTA69

FTA,
Are you serious? You would let police officers who colluded in murder go free, if they told the truth!!

Yes. And I think you missed the boat on this issue jackie, Republican and Loyalist prisoners were all released in order to facilitate the peace process, all I really want is accountability and a new start, not retribution.

The IRA exists and marches and no one says openly what it is for.

We're going around in circles on this issue. You say colour parties are the IRA, I say they aren't. Sin é.

Jackie laughlin

Convicts were released on licence. You're suggesting letting killers off scot free!

FTA69

Convicts were released on licence.

You're only splitting hairs now, they were realeased in order to facilitate the peace process, the same should be applied to all.

K-9

I have a lot of admiration for the RUC officers who told the truth in the Stalker Shoot to Kill Inquiry and also the Soldier in the Bloody Sunday Inquiry who told the truth. These men did so at great personal risk, least of all from the IRA, more so from people within their own and other Govt. organisations. Men like these might be classified as touts in their own organisations, and in others, but they where doing the general public a service. Sinister, when u see McDowell trying to outlaw the same here.

Should the criminals in cases like this go free? Probably, even though I hate to say it, yes. Should the people have been arrested at the Assembly elections count for crimes they did 25 years ago? no , again I hate to say it. This had probably more to do with the DUP hating seeing SF winning seats rather than the PSNI which seem to be blamed for it. If somebody reports a crime to the PSNI they have to act on it, no matter the political motives. It's part of being an independent body. Would be interesting to see the reaction if and when SF co-operates with the PSNI and a DUP/PUP councillor gets arrested for the same reasons!

The thing about this argument though that worries me is if 20/30 years down the line and the UVF are worrying about a genuine chance of a United Ireland and they fight a political war! are the Gardai and Irish Army political targets?