Joining the Reserves

andrew

A guy at that FAS exhibition convinced me that joining the reserves would be a good thing to do when i turn 17, but the problem is i have long (nearly shoulder length) hair, and i was wonderin if anyone knows weather you have to get it cut?
Also, what are the reserves like in general?

cushtac

You'll have to get your hair cut.

andrew

Feck

Hagar

Next.:D

andrew

*puts on hat and rejoins line

Kevin. B

Short hair is preferable..
What are the reserves like? Terrible to be honest compared to most other countries reserves, but improving all the time. And then that depends on the unit. Some are fantastic(like 4AD ) but some are woeful...

andrew

if i tried to join with longish hair would they tell me to leave and not come back until it was cut?

cushtac

andrew wrote:

if i tried to join with longish hair would they tell me to leave and not come back until it was cut?

You'll be told to cut your hair, so decide now which is more important to you - time spent in the reserves or your hair.

Fidelis

Females with long hair have to tie it up. So you'd have a sexual distrimination case if they didn't allow you in

As long as you're clean shaven, it shouldn't matter.

Steyr

Still though you do have an Image to portray so id cut it.

mikemac

Not trying to hijack the thread but I've a quick question.
I've been told that the standard Irish rifle must be fired right-handed.

I'm left-handed and am interested in joining the reserves for a number of different reasons.
I've been a member of the local gun club for a few years and I definitly would not feel confident firing a shot right-handed, my weaker side.

Is this true and how do ye manage if you are left-handed? By the law of averages there must be a few hundred, possibly over a thousand lefties in the Defense Forces

It'd be something that would hold me back from joining. If I'm talking nonense ,let me know and I'll delete this post

Fidelis

Steyr wrote:

Still though you do have an Image to portray

Not to sound smart, but what do you mean?

Sputnik

Is this true and how do ye manage if you are left-handed? By the law of averages there must be a few hundred, possibly over a thousand lefties in the Defense Forces

I'm afraid you're simply going to have to learn to shoot right handed if you join. The steyr ejects to the right and you're going to get a face full of hot brass if tried to shoot lefthanded.

I wouldn't let it put you off to be honest, many other people have gotten used to it.

andrew

Steyr wrote:

Still though you do have an Image to portray so id cut it.

I dont have the stereotypical 'im a teenager and i have long hair' hair or anything. its kept clean and i dont let it grow to extreme lengths,its about collar length long and tbh i dont see how it would take away from whatever image the defence forces are trying to portray.

also, the guy at FAS didn't mention anything to me (though i suppose its possible he wanted to reel me in first :rolleyes: )

babybundy

you could try the sexual descrimination line that a female doesnt have to have short hair so why should you as long as you tie it up i as a cpl would back you on that if you were in my unit

HammerHeadGym

Hi all, don't want to start a new thread unnecessarily, just wondering about maximum age for joining the army? Or did they do away with all that?

cushtac

andrew wrote:

I dont have the stereotypical 'im a teenager and i have long hair' hair or anything. its kept clean and i dont let it grow to extreme lengths,its about collar length long and tbh i dont see how it would take away from whatever image the defence forces are trying to portray.

also, the guy at FAS didn't mention anything to me (though i suppose its possible he wanted to reel me in first :rolleyes: )

It doesn't matter what you think about your hair length or how it looks, you're seeking to join an organisation where long hair is not accepted & will not be tolerated. It is also a disciplned organisation where you are bound to obey all lawful orders.

So, given that you're going to have a problem with your hair & you don't seem willing to address this, are you sure you want to join? You're going to told to do other things you're not going to be happy about, are you prepared for that too?

micmclo wrote:

I've been told that the standard Irish rifle must be fired right-handed.

Correct, but it's not really an issue once you get used to it. I'm left-handed too & had no problems once I got the practice in.

SpitfireIV

micmclo wrote:

Not trying to hijack the thread but I've a quick question.
I've been told that the standard Irish rifle must be fired right-handed.

When I joined a number of years back (I'm no longer a member) a guy that was joining with me approached the officer at our centre on the Thursday night previous to a weekend shoot and asked the officer if he could have a 'left hand Steyr' as he was left handed! The guy was serious too!

Sputnik

Thursday night previous to a weekend shoot and asked the officer if he could have a 'left hand Steyr' as he was left handed! The guy was serious too!

That's not completely ridiculous, you can make the steyr left handed in a matter of seconds, just use a left handed bolt and swap the ejection port lid. We don't do it though. Someone probably told him it was possible.

cushtac

HammerHeadGym wrote:

Hi all, don't want to start a new thread unnecessarily, just wondering about maximum age for joining the army? Or did they do away with all that?

AFAIK, for the PDF it's 26 (army & air corp) & 28 (NS) and for the RDF it's 35.

Sangre

If women don't cut have to cut their hair I can guaranatee you they can't force men to.

Sputnik

If women don't cut have to cut their hair I can guaranatee you they can't force men to.

You've obviously never met my platoon sergeant.

Fidelis

cushtac wrote:

given that you're going to have a problem with your hair & you don't seem willing to address this, are you sure you want to join?

Of course he's having reservations about it, he'd be cutting his hair for 2 hours a week of duty. It's a perfectly reasonable reaction.

cushtac wrote:

you're seeking to join an organisation where long hair is not accepted & will not be tolerated.

Please stop disseminating such inaccurate statements. Long hair is accepted. Females with long hair tie it up. Please explain to me why it is different for a male?

SpitfireIV

Sputnik wrote:

That's not completely ridiculous, you can make the steyr left handed in a matter of seconds, just use a left handed bolt and swap the ejection port lid. We don't do it though. Someone probably told him it was possible.

Ehhh........Irish army, I doubth they'd have such equipment. Anyway, he was just stooopid

For frig sake guys, this 'hair thing' coming up again.........if your a guy and you want to join, then get a haircut, good, tight (you dont have to get a grade 0!!) haircut, even around the sides and back, you can leave it a bit heavier on top if you want. Beside if you have long hair and are wearing a beret for a day your hair will be all over the shop! Try to look somewhat professional.

Stop bitching about it, women have long hair, thats the way it is, you cant expect them to shave there heads, for guys its a different story, if you dont like it then dont join!!

cushtac

Fidelis wrote:

Of course he's having reservations about it, he'd be cutting his hair for 2 hours a week of duty. It's a perfectly reasonable reaction.

It sounds like he wants to have his cake & eat it too. He says he wants to join, but does not want to abide by the rules.

Fidelis wrote:

Please stop disseminating such inaccurate statements. Long hair is accepted. Females with long hair tie it up. Please explain to me why it is different for a male?

I apologise for not being specific & correct myself by saying long hair is not tolerated for males. I'm not a historian or an anthropologist, I can't tell you why it is not acceptable for a male soldier to have long hair but that's the way it is. Like it or lump it.

Fidelis

cushtac wrote:

He says he wants to join, but does not want to abide by the rules.

Hmmm, I think the 'rules' need to be quoted for clarity

My stance would be that as long as the hair is kempt, it should be allowed. Is a male soldier with long hair less effective than a female soldier with long hair? Silly point, I know, but it's a simple case of sexual equality.

cushtac

Fidelis wrote:

Hmmm, I think the 'rules' need to be quoted for clarity

You'll have to find a copy of the Defence Force Regulations so.

Fidelis wrote:

My stance would be that as long as the hair is kempt, it should be allowed. Is a male soldier with long hair less effective than a female soldier with long hair? Silly point, I know, but it's a simple case of sexual equality.

If its as simple as that why hasn't it been challenged before?

Fidelis

cushtac wrote:

You'll have to find a copy of the Defence Force Regulations so.

Reserve Defence Force Regulations - although, there's no mention of how one's hair should be kept. Also, the Defence Act, 1954 might be of interest to some people.

If its as simple as that why hasn't it been challenged before?

I don't know whether or not it has already been argued in a unit, but I fail to see how it could paint a bad image of the Defence Forces. I would be sadened to think a male recruit would be discriminated against because of shoulder length hair, when there's female soldiers with similarly long hair.

cushtac

That's only part of the DFR's, not the whole list, and the Defence Act says the Minister is allowed to make regulations in relation to the DF.

If it had been argued & won then you'd have seen soldiers with long hair by now. Since you don't see them, it's obviously not as straight-forward as all that.

Borneo Fnctn

Fidelis wrote:

Females with long hair have to tie it up. So you'd have a sexual distrimination case if they didn't allow you in

As long as you're clean shaven, it shouldn't matter.

Well you might as well put on a dress as well so. And wear make up.

SpitfireIV

Fidelis wrote:

I would be sadened to think a male recruit would be discriminated against because of shoulder length hair, when there's female soldiers with similarly long hair.

So what you are saying is, either men should be allowed have long hair like women OR women should have to get tight haircuts like men....so both are equal, right?

Like I siad in an earlier post, women are supposed to have long hair, its accepted and the 'norm', men 'dont' need to have long hair, they dont have an emotional attachment (:p ) to it like women do.

Them regulations you posted, interesting reading, I also noted that it mentioned nothing about forced service or national conscription, so no one is forcing these guys with 'long hair' to join. If they do they just have to lump it, we all have to make sacrefises you know, life aint easy, we have to bend one way or the other!

Fidelis

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

men 'dont' need to have long hair

No one needs to have long hair :rolleyes:

So females can have long or short hair, but males can have only short hair. It's sexual distrimination no matter which way you look at it. What actual reason is there for not allowing a male into the military with long hair?

Everyone here has an 'opinion', myself included , on the matter, no facts however. Until someone can direct me to some form of regulation stating that females are permitted to have long hair while males are not, I won't be satisfied!

SpitfireIV

Fidelis wrote:

Until someone can direct me to some form of regulation stating that females are permitted to have long hair while males are not, I won't be satisfied!

Well I can see that! Is this a personal gripe? Or you've been put off the Defence Forces because you have long hair? I'm not understanding why you are so concerned about it.

Fidelis

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

Is this a personal gripe? Or you've been put off the Defence Forces because you have long hair?

No, it's nothing like that

Changing one's appearance for the sake of a job (and I fully appreciate that a military profession requires more from a person than a typical job) seems excessive. The justification for being constantly clean shaven is for the effective use of gas-masks. However, I don't see any justification for having short hair as a man, and not as a woman.

I have yet to hear an arguement here which explains why a male should have short hair apart from the 1950's comments of "women are supposed to have long hair" or "women have long hair, thats the way it is, you cant expect them to shave there heads, for guys its a different story".

Jo King

One of the reasons for short hair given by the Americans is that in an unarmed combat situation, hair can be grabbed, thereby enabling the soldier to be captured.
Another justification is that in some situations ablution facilities may be limited with consequent hygiene problems.
A further ground is simple discipline. Why shave, crease ones trousers, polish ones boots etc? A soldier has to follow orders. There is not always time to explain them, sometimes it may be not be desirable to explain them. If someone is going to bitch about following orders with regard to their appearance it is reasonable to suppose that they are less likely to follow orders in an operational setting.
The Defence Forces are exempt from the equality legislation provided their reasons are objectively justified and are proportionate to the objective.

Dave!

Of course having long hair is impractical if you're a member of the defence forces, for the reasons you have outlined, Jo King. But the point being made is that it is impractical for both men AND women -- and women are just as likely to have their hair pulled in unarmed combat, as men. It's either the case that long hair is a liability, or it is not.

camo

I know of people who've joined, bitched and moaned before joining about getting their hair cut, got it cut and have never looked back.

Dress regulations are (slightly) different for men and women and that won't change. For example women wear different head-dress in the PDF with their dress (non combat) uniform (in most parts/ corps) and may wear skirts.

Sangre wrote:

If women don't cut have to cut their hair I can guaranatee you they can't force men to.

If you have an attitude like that above lose that before you join or just keep your mouth shut when you do. That kind of attitude will only get you in trouble and get you nowhere. Its the military, it has its rules and regualtions and ways of doing things - accept it!

In the military the system always wins.. eventually, don't try and fight it because you'll lose. That's the way it is like it or lump it.

Go for it! Make the most you can of it and be as good as you possibly can and you'll love it.

Fidelis

camo wrote:

In the military the system always wins.. eventually, don't try and fight it because you'll lose.

Yeah, I guess African-American soldiers serving in the US military are still only allowed cook, clean and handle stores? Are there still segregated Negro units? Things change.

Go for it! Make the most you can of it and be as good as you possibly can and you'll love it.

I concur!

Dave!

camo wrote:

I know of people who've joined, bitched and moaned before joining about getting their hair cut, got it cut and have never looked back.

Dress regulations are (slightly) different for men and women and that won't change. For example women wear different head-dress in the PDF with their dress (non combat) uniform (in most parts/ corps) and may wear skirts.



If you have an attitude like that above lose that before you join or just keep your mouth shut when you do. That kind of attitude will only get you in trouble and get you nowhere. Its the military, it has its rules and regualtions and ways of doing things - accept it!

In the military the system always wins.. eventually, don't try and fight it because you'll lose. That's the way it is like it or lump it.

Go for it! Make the most you can of it and be as good as you possibly can and you'll love it.

Has there ever been a law suit taken against the defence forces on this basis? (ie. male being forced to cut their hair)

I would think that if there was, the plaintiff would be the one to come out on top on the basis of equality.

Borneo Fnctn

Some female personnel I have seen look like they need a shave. Is it discrimination that only men have to shave?:D

SpitfireIV

DaveMcG wrote:

Has there ever been a law suit taken against the defence forces on this basis? (ie. male being forced to cut their hair)

I would think that if there was, the plaintiff would be the one to come out on top on the basis of equality.

Ah come on, jeez! Dont give anyone ideas! You'll have droves of long haired fella's lining up to join just so they can play the 'victim' and milk the state for some money.


Ah well.........

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1435354.html


Good news for German recruits with mullets and poneytails!

"It said forcing male soldiers to cut their long hair went against their rights as individuals".

YOUUUUUUUUUUU miserable WURM, get rid of that poneytail NOW!!!!

Jo King

DaveMcG wrote:

Of course having long hair is impractical if you're a member of the defence forces, for the reasons you have outlined, Jo King. But the point being made is that it is impractical for both men AND women -- and women are just as likely to have their hair pulled in unarmed combat, as men. It's either the case that long hair is a liability, or it is not.

Women only constitute 5% of the numbers in the Defence Forces. They are not generally assigned to combat roles. It is therefore proportionate to have different arrangements for men and women. Equality does not mean absolute identical similarity on every point. What the law is concerned with is adverse treatment as a result of belonging to a particular grouping. There have been cases taken to the european courts on discrimination in the Defence forces on the basis of sex. itb has been held that discrimination is OK provided it is objectively justified and proportionate to the object of the impugned activity.

Dave!

Interesting points there!

andrew

objectively justified and proportionate to the object of the impugned activity.

But can long hair really be justified as hindering someone from performing their duty in the reerves?

cushtac

If you refuse to cut your hair you are showing that you are unwilling to conform to the rules & norms of the organisation and have a problem with authority. You have three choices:

1. Get your hair cut & join.
2. Join, but don't get your hair cut. Get in trouble for it, take the DF to court for the right to have long hair. If you lose you're seriously out of pocket, if you win you've earned the enmity of your superiors and peers.
3. Don't join and keep your hair.

You cannot have your cake & eat it.

Zambia

andrew wrote:

But can long hair really be justified as hindering someone from performing their duty in the reerves?

Well Personally I think your being stupid , if you enter the RDF/PDF with this attitude it will be to your own disadvantage.

1: Basically yes your hair is like a nice long hand hold to pull at and expose your throat
2: Long hair requires more washing and stinks if not washs
3: Long hair takes longer to dry. increased possibilty of colds/flu
4: Long/More hair means your Beret wont fit snug
5: Long hair may come loose and fall over your face , hard to shoot
6: IMO and the armys it looks f'ing stupid in a uniform
7: A uniform is about uniformity , everyone attempting to look the same and their best. You are breaking from that with your hippie thing going on.

If this all fails you , answer me this why do soldiers Polish their boots when you can use them just as well dirty..

Hagar

Zambia232 wrote:

If this all fails you , answer me this why do soldiers Polish their boots when you can use them just as well dirty..

Just what we needed, another can of worms.

andrew

Well Personally I think your being stupid , if you enter the RDF/PDF with this attitude it will be to your own disadvantage.

1: Basically yes your hair is like a nice long hand hold to pull at and expose your throat
2: Long hair requires more washing and stinks if not washs
3: Long hair takes longer to dry. increased possibilty of colds/flu
4: Long/More hair means your Beret wont fit snug
5: Long hair may come loose and fall over your face , hard to shoot
6: IMO and the armys it looks f'ing stupid in a uniform
7: A uniform is about uniformity , everyone attempting to look the same and their best. You are breaking from that with your hippie thing going on.

If this all fails you , answer me this why do soldiers Polish their boots when you can use them just as well dirty..

ffs i am not a tree hugging war hating 'hippy.' I don't have a problem with authority. I'm not someone who questions rules all the time just to be a smart arsed little prick. All i wanted to know was:

1) Can i join the reserves having long hair? - to which i got mixed replys.

2) (TBH i wasn't expecting a reson when i first posted this) Is there a reason for this considering women can join the reserves with long hair. I know 'they're not usually posted to combat duty,' but they can be, and it takes away a little from people's arguments a little if the reserves say "well long hair on guys takes a long time to dry.... but its grand for women.."

Also, anybody stinks when they have not washed, wet hair doesnt cause colds (old wives tale), berets must fit fine on women (well im guessing they do since they wear them also), tied up hair wouldnt get in front of my face, if a women looked f'ing stupid with tied up hair in her uniform she wouldnt be told to cut it, it would be tied up and so relativly unnoticable, i am not a hippy.

The slitting throat thing makes sense, i agree.

If this all fails you , answer me this why do soldiers Polish their boots when you can use them just as well dirty

.... So that they don't get caked in filthy mud, making a mess whever they go and making it more difficult to take them on and off probably.

I realise that i will probably get flamed my someone for being a smart arsed little bollox, but i guarentee im not usually a smart arse and wouldnt be one in the reserves, so this post isnt a reflection of my charactor.

Hagar

You won't get flamed, that's not the way things work around here.

The Reserves expect you to comport yourself in a fitting military manner, even in peacetime.

You won't have the luxury of picking and choosing which orders to follow. Your NCO says jump, you jump, end of story. Don't even stop to ask "How high?". If you're told to get your hair cut then you get a haircut. If you're told to shave or clean your boots just do it. Unless you are a woman forget about how the regulations apply to women. It's nothing to do with you. Simple really.

If following simple clear-cut orders is not for you then you're in the wrong place. The military is not about soldiers' individual rights and freedom of individual expression. It's about soldiers protecting other people's rights and freedom of individual expression.

Now get a haircut and join or don't. It's up to you.

As the saying goes "Lead, follow or get out of the fukking way."

AppleBack

What's it like, generally, in the army? Not just the Reserve Forces. What does a person do everyday, train?

Dave!

Do you do any hand-to-hand combat/training in the RDF?