General Election - Who will you vote?

Time Magazine

Seanies32 wrote:

Success is down to the individual and Govt. just as problems are down to both.

Tell that to the universities who cannot charge fees and are being under-funded; to the student struggling through college on a grant that's less than child-benefit, not being eligible to be assessed as an independent until she's 23; to the elderly in hospitals (or in nursing homes for that matter); to the disabled whose education is not be provided for; to the kid who's the one in seven who live in poverty...

ninty9er

Having trudged through the first 90 posts before giving up as it's 2:30 in the morning and I'me quite square eyed from the monitor I'll post up

As my sig will suggest - FF will be getting my highest preferences, followed by Labour and PDs at 4. Having listened to people on doorsteps, only a wealthy lady in a newish upper class estate had "issues" with the cost of tradesmen. Other than that I have not heard major or minor criticisms of th current government. Perhaps having Willie O'Dea in the constituency is the reason, but people have more money in their pockets, and have more opportunities now than ever before.


Personally, I'm a 3rd level student, who wouldn't have been if I was 10 years older; in a family mixed of FG organisational background that will be voting FF or Green; as Enda, though a nice man, would, much the same as Noonan in my own constituency; be an embarassment to the country on the world stage.

I agree it's not good for the current government to remain in place so long, as much for the way that the party organisation suffers as the fact that coalition isn't a particularly successful model for government in my own opinion. For example the PD reluctance to put more Dublin Busses on the road as it's "anti-competitive"

As for this government not supporting indigenous business, I think you'll find FF were the first to propose reducing PRSI, affecting the owners of indigenous business, encouraging more people to set up shop!

Anyhow....poorly made argument; bad post over.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

RainyDay

Seanies32 wrote:

You mean the stuff in the last couple of Budgets. No PRSI on minimum wage, no Levies on wages below €480, Additional .5% levy on incomes over €100,100 per year.

They where concentrating on lowering tax rates before that and increasing tax bands. Reforms like:

Over one third of the work force is now outside the tax net.

All of those on the current minimum wage are outside the tax net completely.
The Budget last year removed nearly 52,000 low-income taxpayers from tax net in 2006.
The top 25% of income earners pay 80% of all income tax raised by the State.

Standard tax rate 1987 35% Now 20%
Higher rate 58% Now 41%.

This is an immaginative approach to making the PRSI system fairer. Makes you wonder what the opposition have been doing for 17 out of 20 years too when the Govt. comes up with the most original policies on Tax/PRSI

Were'nt we talking about PRSI? You seem to have broadened out the definition of PRSI to allow a party political broadcast. So let's cut down the irrelevant stuff (in red below) from your reply and see what's left;

You mean the stuff in the last couple of Budgets. No PRSI on minimum wage, no Levies on wages below €480, Additional .5% levy on incomes over €100,100 per year.

They where concentrating on lowering tax rates before that and increasing tax bands. Reforms like:

Over one third of the work force is now outside the tax net.

All of those on the current minimum wage are outside the tax net completely.
The Budget last year removed nearly 52,000 low-income taxpayers from tax net in 2006.
The top 25% of income earners pay 80% of all income tax raised by the State.

Standard tax rate 1987 35% Now 20%
Higher rate 58% Now 41%.

This is an immaginative approach to making the PRSI system fairer. Makes you wonder what the opposition have been doing for 17 out of 20 years too when the Govt. comes up with the most original policies on Tax/PRSI

Not quite so impressive second time round eh? And your claim that someone on minimum wage doesn't pay any PRSI is just barely true. In fact, a minimum wage worker who does a 40 hour week will exceed the €300 weekly PRSI threshold and will indeed start paying PRSI. The reality is just slightly less impressive that the spin, eh?

ninty9er

ninty9er wrote:

As my sig will suggest - FF will be getting my highest preferences, followed by Labour and PDs at 4.

I'm curious-how do you reconcile voting labour and pd high up on the same ballot paper? How can you vote high up on a ballot paper for parties with opposing ideologies?
It seems inconsistent.

ninty9er

Tristrame wrote:

I'm curious-how do you reconcile voting labour and pd high up on the same ballot paper? How can you vote high up on a ballot paper for parties with opposing ideologies?
It seems inconsistent.

It's just a matter of not wanting to vote SF or FG.

Even though the IRA has decommissioned there remains the fact that Mary-Lou carried the coffin of an IRA chief of staff and Martin Ferris intimidates his way into Dáil Éireann.

I may be able to vote SF in 30 years time when ALL of their candidates have had NO IRA links whatsoever. However I could see a grand coalition working in this country, the only problem being it would unite the others and both FG and FF would be dessimated at the following election, so that won't work...plus Michael Noonan is the only FG candidate who's going to be elected in my constituency and I couldn't draw myself to vote for such a bumbling fool who has never followed through on anything he's said he'd do on my doorstep.

The reality is that Ireland is one of a rare breed in that local politics rules all!!

I havn't voted before and I wasn't a member of Fianna Fáil at the last election.

Basically I'll vote on the basis of my strategically preferred government and look at the likelihood of Limerick having 2 front bench ministries in a FF/Lab coalition

lola_run

Ibid wrote:

Tell that to the universities who cannot charge fees and are being under-funded; to the student struggling through college on a grant that's less than child-benefit, not being eligible to be assessed as an independent until she's 23; to the elderly in hospitals (or in nursing homes for that matter); to the disabled whose education is not be provided for; to the kid who's the one in seven who live in poverty...

Irish student grants are quite generous in comparison to those of our European counterparts. I've seen how many students handle the grant money badly.

purple'n'gold

lola_run wrote:

Ah, ok! God, yeah he's a right loud mouth. He reminds me of Jean Marie Le Pen!

The big man would have a fit, Jean Marie Le Pen is a catholic!

The_Minister

Tristrame wrote:

I'm curious-how do you reconcile voting labour and pd high up on the same ballot paper? How can you vote high up on a ballot paper for parties with opposing ideologies?
It seems inconsistent.

Aside from economics, there are many areas where both parties overlap, especially now, with Rabitte at the helm. It's one of the oddities of Irish politics that Labour votes often transfer to the PDs.

ballooba

ninty9er wrote:

Having listened to people on doorsteps, only a wealthy lady in a newish upper class estate had "issues" with the cost of tradesmen. Other than that I have not heard major or minor criticisms of th current government. Perhaps having Willie O'Dea in the constituency is the reason, but people have more money in their pockets, and have more opportunities now than ever before.

That's the people who talk to you. I would wager that most actually ignore you. I do it myself, when a PD or FFer comes to the door I'm polite to get rid of them. When people don't engage you on the doorsteps you have to get worried. I don't know about your constituency but Chris Andrews was around here a few weeks back and he didn't look like a happy camper. Nobody was talking to him.

I made my arguments on indigenous business already. Employer's PRSI contributions are not an issue for growing businesses. Planning permission, licences and government contracts are.

They might be an issue for shop keepers and hospitality businesses trying to keep labour costs as low as possible. Under Fianna Fail the tourism industry has gone to shít like most other export industries. We are now relying on domestic tourism like Spa sessions and weekend breaks. Retail and (domestic) hospitality is not going to keep our economy going.

K-9

RainyDay wrote:

Were'nt we talking about PRSI? You seem to have broadened out the definition of PRSI to allow a party political broadcast. So let's cut down the irrelevant stuff (in red below) from your reply and see what's left;


Not quite so impressive second time round eh? And your claim that someone on minimum wage doesn't pay any PRSI is just barely true. In fact, a minimum wage worker who does a 40 hour week will exceed the €300 weekly PRSI threshold and will indeed start paying PRSI. The reality is just slightly less impressive that the spin, eh?

I think you'll find its the threshold is €339 to take account of the minimum wage.

You are ignoring levies (2%) which are part of the PRSI (4%) system. PRSI is not payable over €48,400 (PAYE workers).That is unfair and not equitable. FF introduced .5% over €100,100.

The tax system has being majorly reformed in the last 20 years. Tax rates do not need to be reduced anymore. The highest 10% of earners pay 90% of the tax. That is not an unfair system. Keep the minimum out of the tax net and increase the amount where you pay higher rate tax.

Its just a more imaginative approach than just reducing taxes as FG/Lab have announced and addresses some serious inequalities in the system. It just makes me wonder about what FG/Lab policy makers have being doing in opposition for the last 10 years when all they can come up with is tax cuts. Tax cuts sound great and are sexy politics but they divert resources away from reducing inequalities in other areas.

On what have FF being doing for the last 20 years. Plenty when you compare the tax rates from 20 years ago. Of course there are still inequities which FF are addressing. If there wasn't sure we wouldn't need an election/opposition

ninty9er

Seanies32 wrote:

Its just a more imaginative approach than just reducing taxes as FG/Lab have announced and addresses some serious inequalities in the system. It just makes me wonder about what FG/Lab policy makers have being doing in opposition for the last 10 years when all they can come up with is tax cuts.

Don't you mean as Labour have announced and FG have to accept;)

K-9

Ibid wrote:

Tell that to the universities who cannot charge fees and are being under-funded; to the student struggling through college on a grant that's less than child-benefit, not being eligible to be assessed as an independent until she's 23; to the elderly in hospitals (or in nursing homes for that matter); to the disabled whose education is not be provided for; to the kid who's the one in seven who live in poverty...

All will disappear under FG/Lab of course.

K-9

ninty9er wrote:

Don't you mean as Labour have announced and FG have to accept;)

True, funny how FG/Lab then adopt the others policies.

In fairness, Bertie did the same at the Ard Fheis. He seemed to panic and showed no leadership.

Didn't listen to Cowen, who actually showed some leadership.

singloud

I would vote labour all the way, I have respect for their policies and I dislike FF and PDs.
That said I have respect for the Greens, my mother knew Trevor Serjent as she went to the Gaelthucht in Kerry with him, all the kids took the bus but he felt it was too pollutive, so he rode his bike behind the bus all the way. Good man.

And honestly I dislike anyone who claims that they feel they shouldn't have to vote as they disagree with everyone. Someone who claims they don't care who wins means they don't care what happens to the poor. Labour or Greens won't make an absolutely massive difference to Ireland but they will offer limited changes to the poor and health systems. It's not a huge difference but it is something.

K-9

singloud wrote:

And honestly I dislike anyone who claims that they feel they shouldn't have to vote as they disagree with everyone. Someone who claims they don't care who wins means they don't care what happens to the poor. Labour or Greens won't make an absolutely massive difference to Ireland but they will offer limited changes to the poor and health systems. It's not a huge difference but it is something.

They will make a substantial difference as coalition partners. The PD's got a lot of their policies enacted with maybe 5/6% of the electorate.

Múinteoir

singloud wrote:

That said I have respect for the Greens, my mother knew Trevor Serjent as she went to the Gaelthucht in Kerry with him, all the kids took the bus but he felt it was too pollutive, so he rode his bike behind the bus all the way. Good man.
.

it's funny that, because a lot of people would consider that as sticking to your principles and being quite admirable, whereas you'll probably get loads of Irish people sneer at it. Yet they'll vote FF because the local corrupt gombeen man TD bought them a pint once.

ninty9er

singloud wrote:

Labour or Greens won't make an absolutely massive difference to Ireland but they will offer limited changes to the poor and health systems. It's not a huge difference but it is something.

poorer people and the Irish Labour Party....works in a soundbite, but not in their actions!!

The 2 sitting FF candidates are the only ones in Limerick that have been seen in either Moyross or O'Malley Park areas so far that I've heard from people living there

edit:spelling

singloud

M&#250 wrote: »

it's funny that, because a lot of people would consider that as sticking to your principles and being quite admirable, whereas you'll probably get loads of Irish people sneer at it. Yet they'll vote FF because the local corrupt gombeen man TD bought them a pint once.

I don't know they guy and I'm no expert on the Green party, but that impressed me as it did seem sticking to his guns even back then ( my mother was around 21).
One huge problem the Greens have over in Belgium where I lived for a few years is the different types of Greens. You get some who want to subsidize the elderly so they still get cheap fuel as they're old but other's are very conservative Greens, they find it hard to agree on stuff.

I have little faith in the Coalition between labour and FG being some fantastic thing that will help everyone but I feel they'll do a better job than FF and the PDs

K-9

singloud wrote:

I don't know they guy and I'm no expert on the Green party, but that impressed me as it did seem sticking to his guns even back then ( my mother was around 21).
One huge problem the Greens have over in Belgium where I lived for a few years is the different types of Greens. You get some who want to subsidize the elderly so they still get cheap fuel as they're old but other's are very conservative Greens, they find it hard to agree on stuff.

I think the Greens would get more of their policies enacted as part of a 2 party coalition with FF than a 3 party Govt. with FG/Lab. They just would have a bigger say in policy making.

singloud

Well FF seem famed for changing whichever way the wind blows so such a move by FF wouldn't surprise me, though I'm no expert on FF PR so it mightn't be true but I've heard a fair few people say so.Any truth in that matter?

K-9

singloud wrote:

Well FF seem famed for changing whichever way the wind blows so such a move by FF wouldn't surprise me, though I'm no expert on FF PR so it mightn't be true but I've heard a fair few people say so.Any truth in that matter?

Well it could be spun that way or it could be spun that since they have been in Govt. for 17/20 years they are successful at giving the electorate what they want.

Also they have been in coalition with Labour/PD's and independents in that time so there would be policies from bothe political spectrums in those Govts. Part of Coalition Govt. I'm afraid.

I'm just saying that Lab/Greens should consider a 2 party FF Coalition and not write it off. They may get more of their policies enacted than in a FG/Lab/Green and maybe Independent coalition.

ballooba

If you want to know how committed to the environment Fianna Fail are then you only have to look as far as who they put as Minister. I wouldn't put Dick Roche in charge of a jumble sale never mind a government department.

Elmo

I'm just saying that Lab/Greens should consider a 2 party FF Coalition and not write it off. They may get more of their policies enacted than in a FG/Lab/Green and maybe Independent coalition.

Why would the Greens need Labour to go into government with FF? For that matter why would Labour need the Greens?

I agree that the Greens and Labour should not rule out going into government with FF.

K-9

Elmo wrote:

Why would the Greens need Labour to go into government with FF? For that matter why would Labour need the Greens?

I agree that the Greens and Labour should not rule out going into government with FF.

Labour definitely shouldn't need the Greens, unless FF totally disintegrate in seat numbers.

FF and the Greens could depend on how bad or how good the Greens fare. Wouldn't be as much of a certainty that FF and the Greens could form a majority coalition. Independents may come into the equation before Labour would.

Anyway, if FF and the Greens couldn't make a majority Govt. that would probably favour the Rainbow making the numbers.

singloud

I doubt labour would make such a coalition with FF, Anyone but Fianna Fail was a buzzword recently

And I hear what your saying about giving the electorate what they want but as the electorate is constantly changing opinions and issues(think of the increased interest in green issues nowadays) surely this would just mean they have changed to whatever the voters want rather than sticking to a party line.

Voipjunkie

singloud wrote:

I doubt labour would make such a coalition with FF, Anyone but Fianna Fail was a buzzword recently

If the numbers stack up then Labour will go in with FF

IF FG/lab/Greens combined are only in the 70s
and if FF/PD are the same in the 70s

so that the only possible governments would be FF/SF or FF/Lab then Rabbitte could easily do a u-turn on the basis that he would be saving the country from the provos. Remember that Bertie has said that SF are not fit for government based on their economic policies not on their past so if SF are prepared to ditch those policies and my guess is they would then their is no bar to a SF/FF coalition and FF might even use such a possible coalition to persuade labour who would be their next choice after the PDs.

Just to note as well that if SF go into government and presuming they do nothing off the wall then the big block that a lot of people have for voting for them will be gone just as holding ministerial office in the North conferred a certain respectability on them

singloud

I really don't know that much about Sinn Fein from living in Belgium for too long.Whenever they were mentioned it was always in the same sentence as the IRA. Do they hold any potential?

ninty9er

singloud wrote:

I really don't know that much about Sinn Fein from living in Belgium for too long.Whenever they were mentioned it was always in the same sentence as the IRA. Do they hold any potential?

Possibly in China or North Korea:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Basically they've come a long way but have further to go


edit: sarcy smilie not added

Ulster9

I will be voting Sinn Fein in this election.
I support their all-Irealnd agenda.I would like to see closer cross-border ties as i live in the border counties and I can see the stupidity of partition.
Fianna Fail have failed to produce high quality public services after 10 years in office with reasonable resources to do so.
At a local level our authorities are failing us with regard to planning and infrastructure.I m sick of hearing politicians blowing their own trumpets regarding the celtic tiger and our roads are falling apart, towns are a mess with litter and a health service that favours those who can pay for it.Go to Denmark and see how a country can be run.
Regarding Sinn Feins history i have no problems with it, people who have a poor understanding of the North are too quick to blame republicans for the troubles.It was a dirty conflict and terrible things were done by both sides including the IRA but Sinn Fein have taken courageous steps for peace and their leadership have managed their grassroots well by informing them and involving them in the decisionmaking process.

Voipjunkie

singloud wrote:

I really don't know that much about Sinn Fein from living in Belgium for too long.Whenever they were mentioned it was always in the same sentence as the IRA. Do they hold any potential?

Potential for what? winning seats or running the country properly

On the seats front they are widely expected to get about 10 TDs elected but alot of that is based on the local elections and SF had a very good day that day


My main point was that parties particularly labour saying no way to FF or FF saying no way to SF have to be taken with a pinch of salt as what will really decide is the way the numbers stack up and if Labour have the choice of being in with FF or sitting on the opposition benches for 5 more years while SF or indeed the greens hold power on the other side then Labour will be in government with FF like a light.