Sinn Fein=Socialist??

FTA69

Well they aren't as socialist as the socialist party

Says who? Trotskyism isn't the be all and end all of socialism, the SP explicitly ignored British imperialism in this country which is anathema to any socialist.

As I've said before I find socialism and nationalism irreconcible, not because it may add up to fascism, although that is a (slim) possibility, but because Marx explicitly says that the state must fall away.

Nonsense, Marx also said that imperialism must be fought at every corner because it undermines the ruling classes in the imperial power, when colonial adventures abroad are defeated it strengthens working class advancement. Marx also supported Irish independence as it would weaken the British capitalist state. National chauvinism is irreconsilable with socialism, but there is a difference between the nationalism of a small, colonial nation and that of an imperial power.

Chakar

So what about their policy record in Northern Ireland? I would imagine that might indicate their position on the scale between the extreme left and the extreme right.

irish_bob

i agree with almost everything you have said jackie

particulary your point that sinn fein and the ira,s action have put back the possibility of irish unity for decades

in the 1960,s . civil rights movements were paying dividends all over the world , particulary in the usa
the movement in northern ireland had it been given a chance i believe would have resulted in the london goverment having to sit up and take notice of what was happenin to catholics in the north and dismantling the eclusively unionist monopoly on power
the international pressure would have forced their hand
the ira,s violent intervention squanerd all the political capital created by the civil rights movement and gave the brittish a blank cheque to come down hard
it also resulted people who were part of the problem like the reverend ian paisley being given undue creedence for his views
thier is no way paisley not an inch rherotic would have been entertained had the poltics of gerrry fitt and john hume been the main show in town
the civil rights movement were not only gaining the support of the ordinarry people of the international community , they were putting the london goverment in the dock which resulted in the european court of human rights taking action against them

all this was shatterd by the ira
my uncle once said to me that the leadership of the ira with thier lust for power could not bear to see the likes of gerry fitt and john hume become the strongest voice of catholics in the north

some say that those 2 great men could not have drove the brittish out of ireland
perhaps not but thier main priority at the time was to gain equal rights for catholics , i belive that they would have most definatly achieved this and as a result in time the 2 communities would become closer and eventually the unionists community with the likes of paisley silenced , most resonable people grow tired of someone preaching of the evils of equality

eventually i believe a united ireland would have been achieved

but this did not happen and the 2 communities are as divided as ever , thee only difference being the ira have given up shooting folks

ISAW

ednwireland wrote:

just about to say the last person the defined himself as nationilist socialis was adolf hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

I invoke Goodwins Law!

Nah only kidding.

In fact SF (the party) is prone to many guises. I have written elsewhere about their affiliations in the EU parliament. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52964130&postcount=4

I also believe they made submissions on Constitutional reform suggesting doing away with private property (as some EU pals have campaigned for (the youth part of the Czech communist party I think)

So it isnt a case of "they say they are socialist but dont realy act marxist"

Adams is on record as being anti Imperialist so you might suspect Marxist leanings but apparntly the newspapers say his "nationalist" pal "Slab" Murphy was laundering money by property speculation in Manchester.

Many so called "socialists" I know have yachts and a club members and have several houses in the better leafy suburbs of Dublin and elsewhere. So what are SF.?

Well since a putch in the mid eighties SF are currently run by a nordie nationalist bunch. The bigger element of the party were more of a red tinge from the 26 counties. But even in the North there is teh working class city SF and the rural SF . Nationalism united them to take over the Party nationally.

But the question is pertinent. When are SF ever asked about economic plans for Ireland.? I mean some of their policeies are frankly nutty but bankers quque up and pay to have Adams give a lunch speech? go figure.

ISAW

Jackie laughlin wrote:

2) It depends on how you categorise the victims. On another thread I've conceded that roughly a third of IRA casualties were British soldiers. The substantial point is that the IRA's incoherent blood lust has killed hundreds of people including police, ordinary workers, rival pseudo-republicans, anyone the IRA deems a spy, etc.

3) Again, this is a matter of how the count is done. The substantial point is that the incoherent blood lust has resulted in the so-called defenders of the "Catholic/nationalist community" murdering hundreds of Catholics, more than any ONE other armed grouping.

Actually you are WRONG!

Let us first clarify your claims

2) the majority of those killed by the IRA were civilians, which is untrue.

3) the majority of Catholic civilians who died were killed by the IRA, when it was actually Loyalist paramilitaries and the British Army

Now Ill begin at 3. A look here http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/ will quickly show you

Religion_SummaryCount Catholic 1521 nfNI 715 Protestant 1288 TOTAL3524

Of the 1521 catholics ( a cross tabulation on religion summary and organisation will yield)

eligion Summary British Security Republican Paramilitary Loyalist Paramilitary not known Irish SecurityTotals
Catholic 303 446 730 41 1 1521
Protestant 43 981 234 30 1288
nfNI 16 629 56 10 4 715
TOTALS 362 2056 1020 81 5 3524


So loyalists (730) killed TWICE as many catholics as Republicans (446)and if you add in the Army (303) about three times as many.

It DOES NOT depend on whether you add in the army!


as regards 2:
If you cross tabulate Status Summary with organisation summary you get:

REpublican Paramilitary killed 738 civilians
Loyalist Paramilitary killed 873 civilians
British Army RUC etc. killed 190 civilians


So again Loyalists killed MORE civilians! If you add in the army it is about 150 per cent compared to Republicans (1063 vs 738).

It DOES NOT depend on whether you add in the army! It is NOT "a matter of how the count is done"!

FTA69

irish_bob wrote:

all this was shatterd by the ira
my uncle once said to me that the leadership of the ira with thier lust for power could not bear to see the likes of gerry fitt and john hume become the strongest voice of catholics in the north

Well your uncle was wrong. Look at Gerry Fitt's legacy, he was driven out of Belfast by his own people because he was forever siding with the Brits. He was also an aristocratic peer in the house of lords. Great man? The majority of those in his community wouldn't have p*ssed on him if he was on fire.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

irish_bob wrote:

...leadership of the ira with thier(sic) lust for power could not bear to see the likes of gerry fitt and john hume become the strongest voice of catholics in the north

FTA69 wrote:

Well your uncle was wrong. Look at Gerry Fitt's legacy, he was driven out of Belfast by his own people because he was forever siding with the Brits. He was also an aristocratic peer in the house of lords. Great man? The majority of those in his community wouldn't have p*ssed on him if he was on fire.

FTA you seem to have proven the point being made by irish_bob.:eek:

FTA69

It wasn't the IRA who ended Fitt's career, it was the man himself because he was too far removed from what his community was actually experiencing. The time for capitulation politics and roundabout talks was well over, and rather than move on the same line as his people he retreated into rhetoric and ended up in the House of Lords. Good luck and good riddance.

Chakar

Chakar wrote:

So what about their policy record in Northern Ireland? I would imagine that might indicate their position on the scale between the extreme left and the extreme right.

Anybody?

stovelid

FTA69 wrote:

It wasn't the IRA who ended Fitt's career, it was the man himself because he was too far removed from what his community was actually experiencing. The time for capitulation politics and roundabout talks was well over, and rather than move on the same line as his people he retreated into rhetoric and ended up in the House of Lords. Good luck and good riddance.

I'm no fan of Lord Fitt, especially in his later years, but there may be a slight category difference between being firebombed out of Belfast by the IRA and the community - rising as one - to eject him...?

FTA69

but there may be a slight category difference between being firebombed out of Belfast by the IRA and the community - rising as one - to eject him...?

Perhaps, but he remains a langer.

kmick

ISAW wrote:

I also believe they made submissions on Constitutional reform suggesting doing away with private property...

The day Sinn Fein come to power is the day I buy myself and each of my family members a gun because shortly after that the revolution will come.

stovelid

FTA69 wrote:

Perhaps, but he remains a langer.

Raskolnikov

kmick wrote:

The day Sinn Fein come to power is the day I buy myself and each of my family members a gun because shortly after that the revolution will come.

That'll solve everything; won't it?

stovelid

kmick wrote:

The day Sinn Fein come to power is the day I buy myself and each of my family members a gun because shortly after that the revolution will come.

Don't be so hasty. You may share more common ground than you think....

Zambia

irish_bob wrote:

but this did not happen and the 2 communities are as divided as ever , thee only difference being the ira have given up shooting folks

Two days ago Ian Paisley shared a joke with Martin Mcguiness

The UVF have stood Down

The IRA are disbanded

The PSNI is over whelmed with Catholic recruits

The British Army is leaving , at Ian Paisleys request.

Yes we as divided as ever? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

yeah but does Ian Paisley vote Sinn Féin?

Zambia

Tristrame wrote:

yeah but does Ian Paisley vote Sinn Féin?

Of course not does bertie vote Fine Gael?:D

FTA69

The UVF have stood Down

I wouldn't say that, they have said they have dumped their weapons, that isn't the same as "standing down".

The IRA are disbanded

They most certainly haven't.

The PSNI is over whelmed with Catholic recruits

Eh, it is far from being "overwhelmed" now in fairness.

The British Army is leaving , at Ian Paisleys request.

It is not leaving, it is remaining inside its barracks'.

Zambia

FTA69 wrote:

I wouldn't say that, they have said they have dumped their weapons, that isn't the same as "standing down".
They most certainly haven't.
Eh, it is far from being "overwhelmed" now in fairness.
It is not leaving, it is remaining inside its barracks'.

Where going off topic, I will leave you to those positions