Human rights & politics in Zimbabwe

eoin5

purplengold wrote:

I’m sorry to be so politically incorrect. But please name me one sub Saharan country that is successful, economically, socially and politically.

Botswana is one alright, but a lot of the other countries are doing something right. Although there are still many horrible things happening in the country, Uganda is getting their act together and have made serious progress in the last 15 years with their economy and the fight against AIDS. Its not all doom and gloom for those African countries managing themselves.

lostexpectation

mike65 wrote:

More today, still with 4,000% inflation I guess everyone is due a rise....




Zimbabwe’s top cleric urges Britain to invade

Mike.

****ing colonialist

purple'n'gold

El Stuntman wrote:

Botswana

Granted, compared to other sub Saharan African countries Botswana
Is doing ok, but it still has a horrendous aids problem.

El Stuntman

purplengold wrote:

Granted, compared to other sub Saharan African countries Botswana
Is doing ok, but it still has a horrendous aids problem.

horrible AIDS problem, I agree.

btw the reason for its stability is that De Beers runs the country

lostexpectation

El Stuntman wrote:

horrible AIDS problem, I agree.

btw the reason for its stability is that De Beers runs the country

and you call that economically, socially and politically successful.

mike65

Steady on! I think any sub-Saharan country thats not starving and at war is doing quite well, don't look for perfection.

Mike.

El Stuntman

lostexpectation wrote:

and you call that economically, socially and politically successful.

yes, by African standards it's highly successful. Most Africans would love to live in Botswana.

It's crazy to try and apply First World standards to Africa, I've eventually learned that over many years of travelling there.

lostexpectation

El Stuntman wrote:

yes, by African standards it's highly successful. Most Africans would love to live in Botswana.

It's crazy to try and apply First World standards to Africa, I've eventually learned that over many years of travelling there.

Having company run a country is akin to a fascist corporate state.

I'd call it a continuing failure, a fascist corporate state, colonism 2.0.

El Stuntman

lostexpectation wrote:

Having company run a country is akin to a fascist corporate state.

I'd call it a continuing failure, a fascist corporate state, colonism 2.0.

sure that's your opinion, by all means go nuts on the labelling...

but, go to Gaberone and have a look around, talk to people. The country is peaceful, stable, relatively wealthy with reasonable standards of education. By African standards (I've highlighted this, as it's the point you are missing), this is a considerable achievement...

here, read this:

"Through fiscal discipline and sound management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of more than $11,000 in 2006. Two major investment services rank Botswana as the best credit risk in Africa. Diamond mining has fueled much of the expansion and currently accounts for more than one-third of GDP and for 70-80% of export earnings. Tourism, financial services, subsistence farming, and cattle raising are other key sectors. On the downside, the government must deal with high rates of unemployment and poverty. Unemployment officially was 23.8% in 2004, but unofficial estimates place it closer to 40%. HIV/AIDS infection rates are the second highest in the world and threaten Botswana's impressive economic gains. An expected leveling off in diamond mining production overshadows long-term prospects."

mike65

Ah El Stuntman you quoted from the CIA World Factbook and lostexpectation might view that with suspicion.

Mike.

El Stuntman

mike65 wrote:

Ah El Stuntman you quoted from the CIA World Factbook and lostexpectation might view that with suspicion.

Mike.

lol

I like that factbook thingy and use it quite often for professional reasons

what would be a suitably above-board alternative source? Al Jazeera?

gbh

El Stuntman wrote:

here, read this:

"Through fiscal discipline and sound management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of more than $11,000 in 2006.

This per-capita GDP tells us very little. It might well be accounted for by huge exports of diamonds by DeBeers with profits going to that company. It is very likely that the ordinary person on the street is on a good deal less than $11,000 per year. Indeed such a disparity between the statistical per-capita GDP and the real GDP of the average citizen is a classic sign of exploitation of countries by mining companies.

El Stuntman wrote:

On the downside, the government must deal with high rates of unemployment and poverty. Unemployment officially was 23.8% in 2004, but unofficial estimates place it closer to 40%. HIV/AIDS infection rates are the second highest in the world and threaten Botswana's impressive economic gains. An expected leveling off in diamond mining production overshadows long-term prospects."

Just a normal African country then highly dependent on non-sustainable mining.

gbh

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

purple'n'gold

gbh wrote:

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

Ah, yes, African “royalty” they really know how to party. You cant beat a bit of class.

DadaKopf

gbh wrote:

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

I have researched it. It's my job. And it's not that simple, actually. First of all: Africa is a continent, not a country.

gbh

DadaKopf wrote:

I have researched it. It's my job. And it's not that simple, actually. First of all: Africa is a continent, not a country.

I think we all agree Africa is a continent.

Maybe you would like to enlighten us with the knowledge acquired during your research...

DadaKopf

Well, for one, that you can't blame all of Africa's problems on corruption and bad government because, firstly, Africa's a continent with many different countries with different cultures, histories and regimes, and secondly, there are so many other reasons.

I don't have all the answers, but my comment is a corrective to yours.

However, I would say that the root cause of global poverty is power and the unjust structures created by the powerful against the weak.

Voipjunkie

DadaKopf wrote:

However, I would say that the root cause of global poverty is power and the unjust structures created by the powerful against the weak.

Largely the legacy of imperialism of the last couple of centuries and the current form of imperialism.

DadaKopf

I'd say that has a lot to do with it. Also geography and disease burden.

gbh

Ok but going forward, I think the Zimbabwaen government is not being isolated enough. Despite everything Mugabe still has a few supporters among leaders in and outside of Africa and is still treated as a dignatory when he travels around the continent. Its time his government was ignored by other leaders until he leaves office. I suppose some of them are afraid of setting a predecent of removing leaders.

DadaKopf

The African Union and other developing countries have shown some cahonies when it comes to isolating Mugabe. The problem is that international isolation simultaneously weakens the regime and strengthens it because it gives Mugabe the excuse of evil neo-colonial interference as a premise to continue his rampage.

In both cases, the people suffer.

mike65

And on it goes.

Mugabe joins anti-poverty talks

LANGKAWI - Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe, internationally condemned for his nation’s economic meltdown and human rights abuses, was given a warm welcome today an anti-poverty summit in Malaysia, said delegates.

While he has proved elusive to the packs of journalists and photographers staking out the venue, he was said to be actively taking part in round-table discussions with other African and Southeast Asian leaders.

Delegates warmly welcomed Mugabe to the three-day conference, known as the Langkawi International Dialogue, which has stirred some controversy because of his presence.

"Mugabe is actually participating in all the events," said a Malaysian delegate, and had been "hugged and kissed" by some delegates

from earthtimes

The exodus of illegal Zimbabwean immigrants sneaking into South Africa across the Limpopo River in search of a better life is reported to have reached around 3,000 a day.

Zimbabwe's business sector said its regular price hikes were necessary to remain viable in an economic crisis marked by acute shortages of foreign currency and inflation way over 4,500 per cent.

But Mugabe told the students: "It (the wave of price hikes) is coming to an end, as it must," according to the Herald.

Police announced that at least 7,500 people had been arrested since the start of the price blitz on June 26. Most of the offenders have been fined or sentenced to long hours of community service.

Police spokesman Oliver Mandipaka said more than 1 trillion Zimbabwe dollars (worth around 670 million US dollars at the government-set foreign exchange rate) had been raised in fines.

Its "good news" for some in a silver lining fashion

LUSAKA - Zambian immigration authorities are struggling to cope with a sudden upsurge in Zimbabweans crossing the border to shop for basic products as the economic crisis in their home country bites deeper.

The immigration department in the southern border city of Livingstone said the number of Zimbabweans crossing into Zambia daily had risen from 60 to 1 000, with long lines forming at the border post every day.

Meanwhile its all relative for some

Russia no longer resembles Zimbabwe, where the situation is so serious that people get money in the morning and run to spend it while it is still worth something.

Mike.